Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 233424 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2006, 12:09:42 AM »
DNA Dan,

As noted in Reply 82, I reworked the instructions that ThatOneGuy posted to apply to a single dough skin rather than several cut out of a much longer sheet of dough. I did not include the Z fold in my list of steps since that applies to the situation where several dough skins are cut from a long sheet of dough. Remember that ThatOneGuy used one half of a dough bag from the cooler, and that amount of dough was formed into a very long sheet of dough. As I understood ThatOneGuy's instructions, to make the dough easier to handle, it was folded in the Z configuration. With only one small sheet of dough (18' x 18") there would be no need for the Z fold. That is why I left out the Z part in my rewrite.

I did not see anything in ThatOneGuy's instructions about the direction the folded dough was put through the sheeter.

Peter


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2006, 11:47:36 AM »
From reading the post by thatoneguy, he seems to be using the z-fold then running it though the sheeter. This is done twice this way. The third time it's done just to be able to move the dough as a "Stack".

Are you saying that since the dough sheet is so long they can't reasonably fold it into thirds? Thus the Z-fold allows them to manage the dough more easily?

I just had an moment of clarity! Do you suppose the Z-fold is more than just a 3 layer fold? Suppose its a back and fourth fold, more like an accordian? I mean remember this is a long sheet of dough. If they can't fold it into thirds, I would imagine a 3-layered Z would be just as difficult. Wouldn't an accordian type of folding process run through a sheeter generate way more layers than we are currently proposing?

The reason this is peculiar to me is that I don't see why the Z fold is necessary unless it somehow acts differently than dough that was folded in thirds or quarters, etc. I mean if you can make a Z fold, then you can also fold it into thirds just as easily, but for some reason, thatoneguy specifically said, "Z-fold". This leads me to believe that something about that type of fold makes it behave differently. Am I splitting hairs on this point? I mean is a fold a fold and it doesn't matter?

It also seems that they are using a lot more flour than I would have initially thought, on both sides of the dough too. For every fold, albeit thirds or Z, you are merging two floured surfaces together. This I assume decreases the likelihood that the layers will reform with each other.

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2006, 01:56:17 PM »
DNA Dan,

I reread ThatOneGuy's instructions again and while they could have been a bit clearer as to whether the Z stack is put through the sheeter, I don't know if that would have been possible. I envisioned that the Z style was similar to folding a flag, as shown, for example, here: http://www.usflag.org/foldflag.html.

According to ThatOneGuy's instructions, just before the 1/3-2/3 folding step, the dough takes the form of a 3/4"-thick sheet that is 5' long and 1' wide. After the 1/3-2/3 step, it then goes through the sheeter for three more runs, at 1.5", 3/4", and 3/8", before it is Z stacked. I don't know whether the Z stack can go through the sheeter without unfolding at this point, but ultimately the final stack, after the run through the sheeter at 1/8" (with an intermediate run of 3/16"), is 9" high and a couple of inches wider than a large pizza. It would seem to me that at any point the Z stack would be too tall to run through the sheeter. Maybe we have different understandings of what the Z stack looks like.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2006, 03:05:52 PM »
He specifically states that the sheet is folded into a stack in the Z shape, then run through to the next smaller size through the sheeter. You are correct, it's unclear whether it goes through the sheeter folded like this. Since the next size is smaller, I don't think it goes through the sheeter once the Z-fold is made.

I think I read it incorrectly the first time. They probably fold the dough like an accordian for convenience on the sheeter. The feed table on those things are not 5 feet long. (At least not on an average sheeter.) I think they fold it back on itself, like the Z fold so they have a nice uniform stack to work with. This makes feeding the sheeter easier as it will just unfold itself while the operator can focus on the output side. Similar to printing a publication on an endless folded roll. If this is the case, then the dough is really only folded once, in thirds.

I think your rendtition should be more than adequate if the dough is going to layer at all.

I am cautious of this because I folded my last test crust into thirds about 3-4 times and I didn't get any layering. From reading the instructions given, it seems like the MORE you roll it, the worse it gets for two reasons. 1) The layers are really flattened out excessively and 2) The dough is beginning to warm up. I think the latter of the two is responsible for making the layers reform themselves.

When you made this style, did you purposely NOT over-roll and warm the dough? I noticed that once the dough reached room temperature or warmer, it got a lot easier to roll. This may be where the difference between a sheeter and a rolling pin come into play. Whereas on a sheeter it takes one pass to get to the next TF, (rendering the dough still cold,) compared to rolling with a pin back and fourth = friction = warm, sticky dough = layers sticking to one another.

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #124 on: November 07, 2006, 12:41:18 AM »
Quote
Although one may not consider this craker crust at Round Table or Sir Pizza the formula being used here of below 50% hydration is in line with a craker crust formula. When scottr used the term thin & crispy american style this is the type that comes to mind. The x factor that sets it apart is the TF of .081 which may be a bit higher than a cracker style crust.                 Chiguy

Chiguy, I have been confused by the fact that RT was moved from the Cracker Style Topic. The RT thin crust is nearly identical to Shakey's (although I don't think we have a TF for Shakey's). If RT doesn't fit the Cracker style definitions, then the definitions may need to be reconsidered.

 :-\ I wonder if the description of the deep-dish may have caused some confusion. The deep-dish from RT is actually a style that was referred to as "Pan-Style".  Which has some attributes of a chicago deep-dish and and maybe an american style. But is it's own unique style.

I'm going to throw out a guess that when Pizza Hut officially called their style a Pan Pizza, that the term fell out of use by the other chains. Especially since they were nothing alike.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #125 on: November 07, 2006, 09:20:21 AM »
They probably fold the dough like an accordian for convenience on the sheeter. The feed table on those things are not 5 feet long. (At least not on an average sheeter.) I think they fold it back on itself, like the Z fold so they have a nice uniform stack to work with. This makes feeding the sheeter easier as it will just unfold itself while the operator can focus on the output side. Similar to printing a publication on an endless folded roll. If this is the case, then the dough is really only folded once, in thirds.

When you made this style, did you purposely NOT over-roll and warm the dough? I noticed that once the dough reached room temperature or warmer, it got a lot easier to roll. This may be where the difference between a sheeter and a rolling pin come into play. Whereas on a sheeter it takes one pass to get to the next TF, (rendering the dough still cold,) compared to rolling with a pin back and fourth = friction = warm, sticky dough = layers sticking to one another.

DNA Dan,

Now that I see your explanation about the Z stack, I think you are correct and that the dough is simply folded over itself to create the "Z" configuration when viewed on edge. That said, however, I don't think it really matters which way you fold the sheet of dough since the effect of both types of folds is to make it simpler to handle and transport the dough to re-feed it back through the sheeter.

When I rolled out the dough when I first tried the RT clone, I was not paying much attention to anything but trying to get a uniform dough thickness and final skin size and proper skin weight. However, I think that you may be right that it may be best not to have the dough too warm when rolling it out. I believe the modified ThatOneGuy instructions I posted earlier equate reasonably with with the original instructions if our premises are correct, and that the bench flour is added at the same stages as called for in the original instructions except that we are talking about a small sheet of dough, for one skin, not several. The Z stack will require more bench flour to keep it from sticking to itself.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #126 on: November 07, 2006, 12:52:11 PM »
This may also be a size issue. A big sheet of dough is probably going to stay colder longer than a smaller piece. Since we are working with a 16" sheet, it will warm up a lot faster. Here's another example where recreating the commercial volume just isn't the same done microscale. I will try to do a few smaller pizzas with different techniques taking this into account. I suppose I could also chill the dough in-between sheetings.

Lydia,
I personally think this is a cracker style crust and I don't know why the decision to move it here was made. There are some differences in how thick the gummy layer is above the crackery bottom, but I thought the cracker definition was inclusive of this product. Also, I have had RT thicker or thinner on different days. The sorting of this thread predates my existence on this board, so pardon my ignorance in not knowing the history of the decision.

Offline DNA Dan

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Yes I had RT pizza AGAIN!
« Reply #127 on: November 08, 2006, 03:29:15 PM »
I think I might be able to shed some light on the classification controversy surrounding this pizza style. Today I had a MINI 4-slice personal pizza from RT. The pizza came out quite thin. It was about DKM recipe size or smaller. Across from me these construction workers were eating off of a large thin crust, and it was almost twice the thickness of what I was eating! Also, the photos I posted here a while back were from a small pizza (Again, thicker than the mini I ate today).

So basically I am left to believe that a mini personal pizza at RT is really not a good representation of the true nature of what this crust should be. I assume they are using scraps or something for the personal pizzas. IMO, the personal size pizza would definitely fall into the cracker category on this forum. The thicker, larger pizzas may or may not depending upon how you folks define the TF limitations on the cracker style. 

To me, American style is something totally different than this type of crust. Lydia is correct, that RT is quite close or identical to Shakey's, yet those threads haven't been moved. It's also similar to old school Staw Hat and some old school Chuck E. Cheese's.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #128 on: November 08, 2006, 03:36:00 PM »
As noted in the first post in this thread, it was elsegundo who indicated that the RT pizza was an American style. It's even possible that I was the one to move the thread to the American Style board. I wouldn't have known the style in any event since I had never had an RT pizza and only saw photos at the RT website. In due course we can revisit where the thread really belongs.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #129 on: November 28, 2006, 12:25:47 PM »
Okay Okay.....

After a brief stint of internet shopping hell with instawares.com. I am now ready to move this recipe forward. I now have in my possession:

1)  A 16"  pizza disk
2) Harvest King Flour
3) The exact same docking device used in RT

I am just waiting on my Grande Cheese now. I just couldn't resist trying this stuff. After having another pie at a local joint, I am convinced that commercial pizza cheese is a totally different beast than anything you could EVER buy retail. This pizza cheese was like chewing bubble gum!

I think I will use this latest recipe as worked out by Peter:
100%, Flour (King Harvest), 481.08 g., 16.97 oz., 1.06 lb.
48.3%, Water, 232.36 g., 8.20 oz., 0.51 lb.
2.08%, Salt, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 1 3/4 t.
2,08%, Shortening (Crisco), 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
2.08%, Sugar, 10 g., 0.35 oz., 2 1/2 t.
1.25%, Nonfat dry milk (Carnation), 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 4 1/8 t. (a bit more than 1 5/8 t. if baker's grade)
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 1.92 g., 0.068 oz., a bit more than 5/8 t
Total dough weight = 751.41 g. (26.50 oz.)

Also I have the technique from earlier in the thread. I think I am going to experiment with the heat factor while rolling the dough. That is to say, make one dough with few folds, but focus on keeping the dough cool VS. make several folds and allow the dough to warm up. I will generously use flour for both.

What do you think? Any better ideas? Alternative experiments to run?

I want to figure out why folding it sometimes produces a layer and sometimes doesn't. This has me perplexed. If it does indeed turn out to be heat related, we might have to create a higher hydration dough so it can be rolled easier with a roller. (Since most people don't own a dough sheeter.)

I plan on making this pie this weekend. (Geeze, am I already planning this thing? Can you say I have Pizza-issues?)


Offline scott r

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2006, 12:29:14 PM »
I think you will find that the harvest king behaves like a much higher hydration dough than it really is.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2006, 03:56:45 PM »
Dan

I was at the NEW RT in Milpitas the other weekend. Their prep area is open unlike all the other RT's I've been in. Unfortunaly the dough prep are is completely hidden. They let Steve's sandwhich slide off the disk to the floor, which meant a remake, so I was able to stand at the counter and watch pizza production to my hearts content.

The skins were stored on parchment-type paper, removed from what I assume was a refrigerator Couldn't see it from my angle). But, it looked like the chicken wings were also removed from the same unit. Refrigeration would increase bubble development.

When the skins were pulled from the parchment they didn't seem to stretch at all. They were laid on the metal disks, then pulled and stretched by the edge to fit (there wasn't much stretching needed, just a few tugs here and there). No residual flour from sheeting was present on top or bottom and no oily spray was used on the skins or disks. (Spray was used on the sheet pans for the chicken wings and for the Subs).  What surprised me a bit was the extensability of the dough after (assumed) refrigeration. They weren't overly extensable, just more than I would expect.

The large sized skins were stretched only in the center over fists to make them fit the Extra Large sized disks. This may explain way some RT's do not have an Extra large. It would mean training someone to stretch the skins. The skins appeared to be heavy and dense in the way that is typical of this style.

The skin thickness looked to be 3/16 of an inch.

Dan, I think I've got an answer to the mystry Orange Oil on the bottom. All the pizzas are cut on the same block.  At this RT it was a round pizza peel. There is plenty of Orange oil (primarily from pepperoni) on the cutting surface.

I got another BONUS that night.  ;D
When I got back to the Hotel I grabbed the slice with the most prominate bubble, which was rather large and I saw something I have never seen before. There were 3, VERY distinct layers. The top of the bubble, the bottom crust and a center layer! The center layer was of even thickness that ran then entire length of the slice. It looked to be 1/16 of an inch. This made be think that you weren't to far off when you thought that the final sheeting was a 3-fold.

I'm quite frustrated that I didn't think to take a picture with my Cell. But I was so intrigued and involved in thoroughly investing what I hoped was a significant clue, that I completely forgot.  :-\ Sorry

If you don't have an RT with an open prep area, the one I frequent in in Milpitas just off the 680, on Calaveras and S. Park Victoria. So far they have the best crust around.

Lydia
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #132 on: November 28, 2006, 04:24:52 PM »
Dan

I'm working with very high hydration doughs right now (pizza, doughnuts, etc)which is an entirely different beast. But something that I'm experiencing is that using flour to dry just the external layer of dough increases the chances of layering. But whats got me is that it seems to require little to no yeast, and unbelted shortening and include a chemical levener to get good results. That's why I asked if their was any confirmation that flour and not the RT pizza mix was being used to sheet the dough.

I'm beginning to wonder if the yeast in the cracker style crusts aren't just playing back-up for the gluten that is developed just from mixing the hydrated flour.


I'm also toying with the exertion that is used to roll the dough. I'm using rolling pin rings to evenly distribute the weight so that I'm not compressing too much gas and of course I get an even thickness in the process.

Later on, if you decide to go this route, you should check with Cakeworks, that you mentioned before. They should have rolling pin rings/bands that start at 1/8" and should include a 1/16". Standard sets usually stop at 3mm (which is pretty lame since it's not even thin enough for pie dough.)


If I stumble onto an epiphany, I'll be sure to let you know.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2006, 05:21:51 PM »
I'm beginning to wonder if the yeast in the cracker style crusts aren't just playing back-up for the gluten that is developed just from mixing the hydrated flour.

I was thinking the same thing. There is very little rise out of the dough.

Thanks for your most excellent insight! I take it the evidence is gone? Well done.

- The refridgerator makes sense and confirms my suspicions about keeping the rolled dough cold.

- Oil on the prep cutting board.... now that makes sense too. I was wondering if the oil came from toppings, it would have to double back over the crust edge to make sense if it happened while cooking. However, once you cut it, it oozes out galore on the cutting surface. Makes perfect sense that the oil comes from the cutting board.

- I agree too with the three distinct layers. This is the tri-fold sheet. Problem I have is getting them to separate nicely.

Still waiting on my cheese.... what a bummer! Maybe I'll hit up the Milpitas scene.....
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 05:24:25 PM by DNA Dan »

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2006, 07:40:00 PM »
- Oil on the prep cutting board.... now that makes sense too. I was wondering if the oil came from toppings, it would have to double back over the crust edge to make sense if it happened while cooking. However, once you cut it, it oozes out galore on the cutting surface. Makes perfect sense that the oil comes from the cutting board.

Dan

Take a look at the attached photo and see if you can locate the yellow-orange line around the perimeter of the crust about midway down from the toppings. (A CAD program would be nice right about now so I could point it out. It's kinda faint.)

This is caused by spreading an ultra thin layer of sauce. I tried to reference this characteristic in early posts in this thread as "scorched sauce". On most of my pies I intentionally spread my sauce out to the edge and then thin it,  because I like the character and flavor. With higher temps (at least 550F) it will develop that "burnt look" that you asked about the BBQ Semolina pic. Basically it acting like a glaze you would brush on a loaf of bread to develop color.

RT uses a stiff spatula to apply the stiff sauce. It's difficult to spread it perfectly and inadvertently they get the sauce to far out so they run the spatula around the edge to remove some.

The bottom coloring is a different story. The bottom crust's color is virtually identical, BUT the bottom has a greasy/oily character.  The pizzas are cut immediately after removing from the conveyor and the pepperoni oils haven't had any time to solidify. So quite a bit of oil pours off onto the cutting board. And thank goodness the cutting surface is wood that helps absorb some of it.
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #135 on: December 03, 2006, 09:12:22 PM »
What a pizza weekend it was! ??? I am still dumbfounded by my results. Here's how it went down. I will post a few times to make sure I get enough photos in there.

The Dough: (I doubled the recipe so I could compare the warm dough vs. cold dough technique using the same dough.)
- Used GM Harvest King flour
- Kneaded by hand for 10 minutes
- Refrigerated overnight, approx. 24hrs.

Improved Technique/Ingredients
- Started using the appropriate docking device for RTP.
- Pizza's cooked on American Metalcraft pizza disks.
- Started using Grande 50/50 cheese.

The oven/cooking setup:
- 550 degree gas oven
- 1/2 " Pizza stone set on top rack of oven for 1 hr (I figured I needed more top heat since RTP toppings always look singed.
- Cooked on bottom rack of oven for about 10 minutes.

Test dough #1 - I rolled this dough out with a big rolling pin, proceeded to make the tri-fold. Rolled it out again, them made a second trifold.  Now into my third roll, the dough was no longer that cold. I could notice that the folds made in the previous round were pretty well incorporated into the dough. I had very little hope for this pizza, but here are the shots.

As you can see from the photos, still no layering in the crust. The crust was similar to a frozen pizza, yet not too crispy. One of the good things was that I can now produce that burnt RT crust look by thinning out the sauce on the edge of the pizza. You basicaly sauce the whole thing, but thin out the sauce as you reach the edge. THANKS LYDIA! The cheese was great, however it tasted too much like provolone. I didn't have any mozz to get the correct 3:1:1 ratio of RT cheese. Likewise, I didn't have any cheddar. The crust is really what I was after with this experiment.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 09:15:10 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #136 on: December 03, 2006, 09:24:51 PM »
Test Dough #2 - Same dough as above, but I only performed (1) trifold then cut out the crust. The experiment here is to see if rolling it less and keeping the dough cold increases the likelihood of getting some latering.

The result was a big disappointment. Again the crust was pretty well formed. You can see one bubble in the photo, but nothing close to RT at all. I scratched my head and thought about what to do with the scraps.... This one was better, but not right.

Offline DNA Dan

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Secrets for RT at home discovered?
« Reply #137 on: December 03, 2006, 09:33:47 PM »
As I pondered my two failed pizzas, I dwelled upon just what a sheeter is doing to a dough. What kept coming to my mind over and over again, is that you only make 1-2 passes with a sheeter and you are down to the next thickness. Comparing that to my rolling technique, I would have to roll back and fourth about 30-50 times just to get the dough to flatten out to the correct thickness. Once you make the tri-folds for this style, you do that process again, then again. Clearly, rolling it out with a rolling pin was a completely different process and was far from what a sheeter can do. It's just way too much pressing and squeezing on the dough. This IMO was making the dough reform itself everytime. The answer, roll a LOT less, but how?

I thought what if I rolled it VERY THIN. Like 1/16th of an inch, made a trifold twice, then gently rolled it down to 3/8". By this time I had run out of sauce, so it was grande and pepperoni, but the results were staggering! More on this after the photos. The next pizza shown is only ~6 inches in diameter and was made this way using the scraps from the first two pies. Same dough, but it sat out on the counter in a ball, so it was warmed up.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 09:35:53 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #138 on: December 03, 2006, 09:55:34 PM »
AHA! LAYERING! I successfully made RT pizza, but not really. The texture was about 80% there. The difference in how a layered dough cooks was completely different than a single layer crust. Here's my theory, in the layered crust you trap water in the form of steam as the dough cooks. This has a "steaming" effect on the interior of the crust and makes the voids more moist, with that sheen look to them. This is far different than forcing the layering through tons of flour or simply dryness alone. The voids have a completely different texture. The bubbles in the crust are the result of trapped steam, NOT rise from the yeast. As this "wetness" gets closer to the interior layer just under the sauce, it makes the dough more wet and these layers are more gummy.

The thing is, in the sheeter the rolling action is fast and quick. The dough does not have a 5 minute, 50 pass roller going over and over it. My hunch was that constant rolling on the dough is going to make it reform almost everytime, no matter what. Well what about croissants you say? Well, if you look at the process carefully, there is actually a thin layer of butter in between the folds which prevents reforming of the dough while rolling it out. Since you don't do this with the RT dough, you flour it in the hopes that it won't stick to itself. No matter how dry you make the crust, if you roll it a long time you will eventually reform a single crust. The dynamic using a sheeter is completely different than that of the hand roller.

So what now? The texture was there about 80% to the real deal. The dough however was off by a fair amount. It didn't "taste" like RT that much. This is in part because I didn't have sauce on it, in addition the cheese was incorrect. However if you look at the next shots, you'll see a difference in the dough. The first shot is the pizza I made. You can see the bottom is smooth and crispy. The second shot is a RT pizza I had earlier in the day (yes, I had pizza twice yesterday!). You can see in the RT photo the crust is BLISTERED with a bunch of small bumps. This is similar to a pie crust which has a lot of shortening in it. Or it also reminds me of the top on a good san francisco style sourdough.  The problem with raising the shortening level in the RT dough recipe is given that the ingredients listed the SALT before the shortening. So if you raise the shortening, you need to raise the salt (Assuming the label follows convention and USDA law). An increase in salt is only going to inhibit the yeast action even more, in addition add a salty taste to the pizza.

SOoooo the next question is, do you think the blistering is a result of the high heat conveyor oven? or is it something with the dough formulation? I wish one of you high temp guys could try this recipe and see if you get blistering like that.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #139 on: December 03, 2006, 10:03:20 PM »
See reply #49 and #58 for more shots of the "Blistered" bottom on the RT pizza. It has an almost fried texture to it. This indiates there is a lot more oil in the dough than we are currently using, but I don't see it on the label, nor does it make sense in the recipe scheme.