next »

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

Looking at some of the photos I noticed that the perforated disk appears to be made of uncoated aluminum. Were the pizzas baked on that disk, or was the disk used only for cooling the baked pizza once it came out of the oven? My recollection is the RT uses dark or anodized disks.

Blistering sometimes occurs because the dough is too cold. Or because the oven is too hot. Remember that ThatOneGuy indicated that dough rounds were stacked (separated by wax paper) and put into the cooler. If those dough rounds are used right out of the cooler, they can blister. Usually this is to be avoided but it seems you like them. If so, then you might try using future dough rounds while cold.

You indicated that you heated your oven to 550 degrees F. If memory serves me correct, that is much higher than what RT uses. Was there a reason why you didn't use lower temperatures?

Your pizzas look very tasty. Apart from the crust problems, how did the pizzas taste?

Peter

[Lydia]

Dan

Lookin' good!

Check out PizzaBill aka Pizzamaniac's site http://www.pizzamaniac.com/index.php/archives/2004/07/ he got some awsome white surface blisters. Click on the 4th pic. for a close-up.

From what I understand, they are caused by air trapped just under the surface of the dough where a skin/thin crust has formed due to exposure to the air and has been trapped just under the surface. If I am remembering correctly sheeting the dough can also cause them along with under and over fermentation.

Peter ?

Do you have any info regarding pizza industry recommendations for incorporating scrap dough. I've been searching over this past week and the only info I could find wasn't specific to pizza dough production.

I should have mentioned in my detailed post earlier that the newer RT's are using the uncoated aluminum disc with no notable difference.

RT's crust flavor is the typical "fermented dough flavor". Significant but not overly present. What would you suggest to develop that flavor that Dan says is lacking? A room temp ferment?

[DNA Dan]

Looking at some of the photos I noticed that the perforated disk appears to be made of uncoated aluminum. Were the pizzas baked on that disk, or was the disk used only for cooling the baked pizza once it came out of the oven? My recollection is the RT uses dark or anodized disks.

I used them to cook the pizza. You are correct that RT uses the black annodized. Either that, or the pans they use have just gotten black from all the grease over time. I got sort of a white crispy bottom with this disk. Do the dark anodized disks give you a darker bottom?

Blistering sometimes occurs because the dough is too cold. Or because the oven is too hot. Remember that ThatOneGuy indicated that dough rounds were stacked (separated by wax paper) and put into the cooler. If those dough rounds are used right out of the cooler, they can blister. Usually this is to be avoided but it seems you like them. If so, then you might try using future dough rounds while cold.

What about the hydration level? more or less water? what about the yeast? more or less yeast? I think the original assumption was that the dough needed to be on the dry side in order to keep the layers from reforming. Given that I have shown it's more about technique and not so much water content, we can perhaps revisit this aspect of the recipe.
 

You indicated that you heated your oven to 550 degrees F. If memory serves me correct, that is much higher than what RT uses. Was there a reason why you didn't use lower temperatures?

I used the higher temperature to explore the sauce burning on the crust. Lydia has provided some great info regarding this and it seems the pizza she cooks hot on the grill comes out with a nice burnt/sauced crust. This isn't to say that the same thing won't occur at 475 (which I think is the RT temperature) but it's hard to guage indirect vs. radiant heat. The RT style definitely has some radiant heat aspect to it because the pepperoni is always singed on the pizzas. My oven suffers from lack of top heat, which is why I decided to try the stone on the top rack above the pizza. I thought I could have just given it a blast with the broiler, but it was too late and I didn't want to handle a 550 degree pizza stone. I think in the future I will use the lower temperture with the pizza on the lowest rack possible. Then I will give it a blast with the top broiler to get the singed effect.

Your pizzas look very tasty. Apart from the crust problems, how did the pizzas taste?

The Grande was well.. Grande. It was about what I expected. For sauce I have been playing with different commercial canned pizza bases using Penzey's pizza seasong with the recommended amount on the package. Interestingly, the RT pizza I had had a mistake in the sauce. Someone put too much of one spice in it, and I totally recognized it as an Indian spice. I am still researching this, but I haven't experimented too much because I need to get the crust down first. Without the right texture and crust flavor, the cheese and sauce are hard to evaluate.

Overall the pizza was good. It did not layer at all. It had a very dense feel to it, but it had the "sag factor" like you would expect from a NY slice. It really wasn't as crispy as I would have anticipated with the disk. That's why I say, maybe this is where the hydration should be a little higher.

The little scrap pizza I made which came out great with the layering had a better flavor. This warmed up by sitting at room temperature for a while, them once I rolled it super thin, it was completely room temperature. I didn't let the dough rise before I retarded it in the fridge. It either needs a Pre-fridge rise, or more yeast.

[DNA Dan]

Lydia,

It looks like he attributes the blistering effect to the "double rise", that is to say, a single rise followed by a 24 hour retard in the fridge. I will be sure to incorporate this on the next go around. I haven't had time to compare the recipes yet, but his boli dough looks close to what I'm already working with.

I was also going to mention Peter, in regard to taste, the unbromated Harvest King flour was great. I couldn't quite taste the difference of bromated vs. unbromated, but the malted aspect is key.

[November]

Do the dark anodized disks give you a darker bottom?

Generally speaking, yes they do.  When you said you ordered the exact same pan as I, I hope you ordered Chicago Metallic's dark perforated pan, because that's what I have.

- red.november

[DNA Dan]

I actually ended up with 4 lol. 

I bought two of the American Metalcraft disks, one cuisinart "pizza crisper" which is a thicker metal. Then the Chicago Metallic pan. My Chicago pan is teflon coated but it isn't BLACK, it's the grey teflon. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Do you have a link to the actual disk you have?

[November]

Dan,

The actual disks I have are so old, the color wouldn't match any pictures online anyway, but it would be similar to their current Silverstone finish, just darker from the thermal stressing I did to them and the years of use.

- red.november

[Lydia]

Dan

It looks like he attributes the blistering effect to the "double rise", that is to say, a single rise followed by a 24 hour retard in the fridge. I will be sure to incorporate this on the next go around.

.

I was hoping to hear back from Peter on a room temp. ferment prior to refrigeration to increase the "flavor" without over-doing it.

I have had good results; but maybe too good. I ended up with almost potent "beer flavors" from this technique.

[scott r]

Lydia, if you follow the amount of time and the temp I laid out in my original post you should have the perfect amount of fermentation flavor.   If not  just increase or decrease the amount of time or the temps to adjust to your tastes.

If anything I think the amount of fermentation I used was on the conservative side so if you let it go a little longer, or if you put the dough in the fridge for a day or so after the room temp rise it should be perfect.

[Lydia]

Thanks Scott 

[Pete-zza]

Lydia and Dan,

I have tried several times to try to create doughs that will yield a lot of bubbles and blisters. I have intentionally tried using a lot of yeast, underfermentation, cold dough (and no docking), high oven temperatures, high hydration (63%), etc., but have been unable to produce the degree of bubbling and blistering I was looking for. I was using the Lehmann dough formulation so it is possible that that formulation is not prone to excessive bubbling and blistering. I have actually had better bubbles and blisters using a dough that has had a long fermentation, usually after several days.

As for industry practices regarding recycling of scrap dough, I researched the topic some time ago and reported on what I found at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg25670.html#msg25670 (Reply 388).

As scott noted, it is possible to get improved flavors of fermentation by using a room temperature rise, whether alone or in conjunction with a cold fermentation, and the longer the better. My practice when trying to recreate an existing pizza is to try to first follow all of the recommended procedures, including temperatures and bake protocol, and to make changes only when the recommended procedures fall short. That is why I asked about the perforated disk and whether it was dark or not. As November has noted, there is a difference in results using an uncoated aluminum disk and a coated one. The coated one (or one darkened from prolonged use) will absorb more oven heat and produce a darker bottom crust (all else being equal). A light disk will reflect heat and yield a lighter bottom crust. The photos of the RT bottom crust show fairly light coloration. Whether that is from a short bake time, the conveyor finger configuration, or the use of a light colored perforated disk is not clear. My inclination would have been to bake the pizza on the perforated disk (preferably dark) on the bottom or middle oven rack position, at the recommended oven temperature (around 475 degrees F but less than 500 degrees F), and then move the pizza to the top oven rack position toward the end of the bake in order to get more top heat to the pizza, especially if the bottom crust looked like it was browning too fast. I do this all the time in my oven with good results.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Okay so just to document the changes for my next go round:

- Use the darkest pan out of the 4 I bought   
- Cook at 475 on the bottom rack, move to top rack or broil toward the end of cooking time.
- Add 2 parts mozz, 1 part cheddaer to Grande 50/50 blend
- Use thin sheet/layered technique discovered from last experiment.
- Let dough rise 1-2 hours at room temperature, then retard in fridge overnight.
***EDIT*** I just noticed in reply #36 there is no rise mentioned on the instructions for the dough. Interesting.

Anything else?

I am going to start working on the sauce. I have a few "fully prepared" pizza sauces that have been good so far, but I need to play with the spices. I know RT sauce has a lot of different peppers in it. Any thoughts on this? The last RT I had with the jacked up sauce was VERY spicy and had an Indian flavor to it.

[Lydia]

Thank you Peter 

[DNA Dan]

I didn't even see this 2-3 weeks ago. I live here locally and it wasn't really in the papers

http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article.php?id=6226&prc=145

R.I.P. Bill Larson. To one of the great "originals" on the West coast, we salute you.

[DNA Dan]

Lydia,

According to the pizzamaniac.com website the dough is referred to as "boli" dough. I assume this to be "Bill's Classic Stromboli" dough recipe. He doesn't give baker's percents but here is the recipe:

Dough:
1 1/4 c - Water (Luke warm)
1 tsp - Sugar
2 tsp - Salt
2 T - Olive Oil
3 c - Hi-Gluten Flour
1 tsp - Active Dry Yeast

What does this come out to be in terms of baker's percents? Peter you have me hooked on that stuff now! I will never look at another recipe the same ever again

How do the percents compare with the RT clone recipe we are playing with?

Another thing I forgot to mention Peter, was that the increase of the salt and everything else to ~2% had a fairly strong effect on the dough. It only proofed about 70% of the size as when I did the recipe with those ingredients around 1%. Perhaps the other recipe is more in line with the RT setup, because the dough doesn't seem to proofed after mixing. It seems more logical that they would just bag it, then put it in the freezer as was already stated by someone on this thread.

Is there a significant difference in your opinion about using less salt, faster proof overnight in the fridge vs. more salt, slower proof (or double proof) after mixing and in the fridge. Does a slower proof produce a better flavor?

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

Offhand, the pizzamaniac dough recipe you posted, if correct, has a high hydration, around 74%. Using the default values at the November tool (found at http://www.unclesalmon.com/tools/mass-volume.php) to determine the weight of 3 cups of high-gluten flour (KASL), and assuming that I got the math right, I get the following baker's percents for the pizzamaniac dough formulation:

100%, High-gluten flour, 13.67 oz. (3 c.)
74%, Water, 10.13 oz. (1 1/4 c.)
2.88%, Salt (table), 0.39 oz. (2 t.)
7.22%, Olive oil, 0.99 oz. (2 T.)
0.98%, Active dry yeast (ADY), 0.13 oz. (1 t.)

As you can see, the pizzamaniac dough formulation bears no resemblance to the RT dough formulation you have been testing. Hence, I wouldn't try to read too much into its significance in relation to the RT dough formulation. Without knowing more, I am assuming that the bread maker pizzamaniac uses to make the dough can handle 74% hydration.

I am having a problem parsing your last paragraph into the different possibilities. However, it is a well known fact that salt acts as a regulator of the fermentation process because of its effect on yeast, gluten and enzymes. Also, as a general proposition, I think it is safe to say that a longer fermentation, whether at room temperature, in the cooler, or some combination of both, does improve the flavor profile of the finished crust.

BTW, I don't recall that the RT dough is put in the freezer. I think you may have meant the cooler.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Peter,

Yes I meant cooler not freezer.  I guess my basic question is does a slower ferment over a long period of time produce the same flavor as a rapid ferment over a shorter time? There are two main factors here,  activity level of the yeast and time.  Will those two doughs be similar ya think?

I was only curious about the boli dough because that is the closest thing I have actually seen with the amount of surface blistering like the RT crust. Nothing else I have seen even remotely comes close. By comparing the two recipes, I want to see if it makes sense to make the RT dough more hydrated. I understand that you concluded the current percents based on weight of the dough for various pizza sizes, but how did you determine the hydration again? The differences between the two recipes are the hydration level and the amount of oil. Clearly the oil has no business in the RT dough, but the hydration has me curious now. It seems like the inclination of this style is to make the dough super dry so you get layering through copious amounts of flour and "dryness". My technique adapted for home use has shown otherwise. You can take a relatively hydrated dough and produce the layering affect simply through technique.

On another idea all together, do you think supplementing the flour with malt powder will produce more activity during the cold ferment? I assume different flours have differing amounts of malted barley in them, and this could be an area where the contribution of the flour to the flavor is being underestimated.

What I am trying to do is get the dough to do some of the characteristics of the RT crust. ( i.e. Blistering, etc.) while working in the framework of the working recipe. As it currently stands, it feels about 60% right in terms of taste, crumb, and bite. I appreciate all your feedback and any suggestions of what to try next are helpful to the discussion.

 

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

In my experience, and all else being equal, the flavor profile that you will get from a slow, long fermentation will be different, and, in my opinion, better, than what you will get from a fast ferment over a short period of time. Typically, the former is achieved by using a small amount of yeast, moderate water temperatures (cool or slightly warm), and a fairly long period of fermentation either at room temperature or a longer fermentation in the refrigerator, or a combination of both. The latter is achieved by using a large amount of yeast, very warm water (often above 100 degrees F), and a short period of room temperature fermentation (typically a few hours). It takes time for the yeast, enzymes and bacteria to do their thing and for acids and other compounds to be produced, so the long fermented dough will usually yield more pronounced crust flavors and aromas, as well as a different texture, because of all of the biochemical activity that takes place over the long fermentation period.

As I noted before, some dough formulations are more prone to bubbling and blistering, but usually bubbling and blistering is not because a formulation per se. See, for example, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=2876. In addition to the reasons given at that post, I have experienced bubbling and blistering in overfermented, or overrisen, doughs. In this vein, when I went back to re-read the dough preparation instructions given by pizzamaniac for his boli dough recipe, at http://www.pizzamaniac.com/index.php/archives/2004/07/, he indicated that “one dough ball began to deflate as it sat on the counter”. That is a common sign of an overrisen dough. Also, pizzamaniac complained about not getting enough crust color (“Now if I could just get that crust to brown more”), which is also a common sign of an overfermented dough. Remember also that pizzamaniac used a bread maker, which can operate at high temperatures and produce a lot of frictional heat during a 30-minute knead time. Also, in pizzamaniac’s case, he subjected the dough to an additional 1-hour rest period within the (still warm) bread maker before putting the dough in the refrigerator. All the rapid, up-front fermentation could have foreshortened the useful life of the dough and could have been responsible in great measure for the deflation of the dough pizzamaniac spoke of and the subsequent bubbling and blistering.

On the matter of dough hydration, the original hydration number was based on elsegundo’s opening post on this thread at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg16912.html#msg16912. I ran the premix weight (24.25 lb.) and water weight (11 lb.) numbers through a spreadsheet and adjusted percentages of ingredients to scale down to a single dough ball size based on the weight/pizza size information provided by ThatOneGuy.

As to your question about the use of malt, I assume that you are referring to diastatic malt, as opposed to nondiastatic malt. If so, the use of the diastatic malt would be in the context of extracting more sugar from the damaged flour (through increased amylase performance) for crust color/flavor purposes. I discussed this topic recently at the Lehmann thread at Reply 525 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg32193.html#msg32193. Unless you are experiencing crust coloration problems with the flour you have been using, I don’t see a need for using more diastatic malt. It might have been of potential value to pizzamaniac, however, in getting more color in his finished boli crust. FYI, I have read that the typical quantity of barley malt used in malted flours is about 0.1%.

If blistering of the crust is a requirement, I would personally try using either a cold dough (or a pre-prepared skin) right out of the refrigerator along with a high oven temperature (at least at the outset), or I would let the dough reach the stage of overrising and deflating before using it (which may have the unintended effect of reducing the layering effect you are trying to achieve). It’s possible that RT achieves the bubbling and blistering not because it wants that result but through poor dough management. But if that is what you are looking for, then by all means try to achieve it.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

As I noted before, some dough formulations are more prone to bubbling and blistering, but usually bubbling and blistering is not because a formulation per se. See, for example, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=2876. In addition to the reasons given at that post, I have experienced bubbling and blistering in overfermented, or overrisen, doughs. In this vein, when I went back to re-read the dough preparation instructions given by pizzamaniac for his boli dough recipe, at http://www.pizzamaniac.com/index.php/archives/2004/07/, he indicated that “one dough ball began to deflate as it sat on the counter”. That is a common sign of an overrisen dough. Also, pizzamaniac complained about not getting enough crust color (“Now if I could just get that crust to brown more”), which is also a common sign of an overfermented dough. Remember also that pizzamaniac used a bread maker, which can operate at high temperatures and produce a lot of frictional heat during a 30-minute knead time. Also, in pizzamaniac’s case, he subjected the dough to an additional 1-hour rest period within the (still warm) bread maker before putting the dough in the refrigerator. All the rapid, up-front fermentation could have foreshortened the useful life of the dough and could have been responsible in great measure for the deflation of the dough pizzamaniac spoke of and the subsequent bubbling and blistering.

I understand now that it isn't as simple as comparing apples to apples. I never really took much thought of some of the points you mentioned. I guess one approach I can take is to try and re-create the boli crust as pizzamaniac has to see if I can even produce a crust with blistering, then try to see which factors above have the greatest influence on the final product. Excellent comments.

On the matter of dough hydration, the original hydration number was based on elsegundo’s opening post on this thread at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg16912.html#msg16912. I ran the premix weight (24.25 lb.) and water weight (11 lb.) numbers through a spreadsheet and adjusted percentages of ingredients to scale down to a single dough ball size based on the weight/pizza size information provided by ThatOneGuy.

So it looks like he just posted that as information he received from RT directly. I don't see any reason why he would have to lie about his findings, so I think I will consider this as fact for the final recipe. I still think it's so cool how you guys translated that over to meaningful numbers of ingredients.

As to your question about the use of malt, I assume that you are referring to diastatic malt, as opposed to nondiastatic malt. If so, the use of the diastatic malt would be in the context of extracting more sugar from the damaged flour (through increased amylase performance) for crust color/flavor purposes. I discussed this topic recently at the Lehmann thread at Reply 525 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg32193.html#msg32193. Unless you are experiencing crust coloration problems with the flour you have been using, I don’t see a need for using more diastatic malt. It might have been of potential value to pizzamaniac, however, in getting more color in his finished boli crust. FYI, I have read that the typical quantity of barley malt used in malted flours is about 0.1%.

My ideas with the malt are like this. Let's assume that the blistering effect is from an overfermented dough. Let's also assume that RT mixes, bags their dough immediately, then puts it in the fridge. (I would assume this is the case because time=money for a chain restaurant.) Now if we assume their dough only undergoes an overnight ferment in the cooler, how can they get it to approach over-fermenting? Malt? I was thinking that maybe the reason the taste isn't there 100% on our working recipe (And why there isn't any blistering) is that the Harvest King flour has less malted barley than the RT pizza mix. It's really hard to say what the malted component is in these flours. All I can say is the taste is headed in the right direction ever since I started using the malted flour, so I was thinking pushing more in this direction. I will get some from the KA website. Yes I mean the diastatic malt power. How much would you recommend I try in the recipe?

If blistering of the crust is a requirement, I would personally try using either a cold dough (or a pre-prepared skin) right out of the refrigerator along with a high oven temperature (at least at the outset),

I sort of tried this last time with the cold dough, 550 degree oven. No blistering whatsoever. It actually looked smoother than my crusts normally do.

or I would let the dough reach the stage of overrising and deflating before using it (which may have the unintended effect of reducing the layering effect you are trying to achieve). It’s possible that RT achieves the bubbling and blistering not because it wants that result but through poor dough management. But if that is what you are looking for, then by all means try to achieve it.

Once I did the Lehman NY style with KASL flour and I recall the crust was not so smooth. It did ferment a long time, but it's been a long time since I remember the details. I will have to try this again with the RT clone recipe. The challenge is making the process work within the framework of what is done at the restaurant.

I just thought of something based on your comments! Perhaps the "poor dough management" aspect is the incorporation of the scrap dough from the batch before. The would explain in part why the dough is "over-fermented"? Someone in this thread mentioned they actually performed a "re-roll" of the previous dough, then incorporated it into the new dough sheet. That could actually be the bottom side of the pizzas they make from that sheet.

My attempt with this recipe is to make a 100% clone of what you can get in the restaurant. If I see blistering on the crust, that's what I am after. If it needs a different taste, that's what I am after. I understand that I may have to go through different routes to achieve the same or similar result. So far, it takes quite a bit of time and foresight to make this clone. It also isn't cheap to make. I wonder just how practical it's going to be on time and cost once I am finished and have a working replica. There's always the "creation" aspect of doing it yourself, which is maybe part of the allure to this challenge for me. I think I am close, I can feel it.

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

I went back to the GM website to check the specs on the Harvest King flour. It has a falling number of 240-280, which means that it has adequate barley malt. It isn't until you get in the 280-300 range that the addition of diastatic barley malt might be considered. As noted in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#D if too much diastatic malt is added, the dough can become slack and sticky. Whether that condition is conducive to bubbling or blistering is not something with which I have had experience. If crust flavor is lacking, it could be because the Harvest King has 12% +/- 0.3% protein. Stepping up to a higher protein flour might get you closer to where you want to be taste-wise.

I have not had any experience in using scrap dough. But usually scrap dough is spent after a few days of fermentation and is usually added to a new dough batch for flavor enhancement purposes or to save money by using it up rather than throwing it away. I don't believe using the scrap dough leads to an overfermentation or overrisen condition. One experiment you may want to try is to leave the dough from which the final skin is to be formed sit at warm room temperature until it starts to collapse after peaking, as might even happen in an RT environment if a dough skin is left to sit around too long. Then finish it, dress it, and bake it. Maybe you have answered this question before, but do all RT crusts have the blisters? If so, this would start to suggest that there is a method to their madness and that the bubbling/blistering is intentional.

Peter