Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 239392 times)

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Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #300 on: July 14, 2008, 10:14:25 PM »
Hi Pete-zza,

I used the recipe you posted Dec 17, 2007. And I did deviate slightly from the recipe and preparation process.

Like I didn't have dry non-fat milk, so I used 2% milk and just didn't add as much water. I made the dough, let it sit on the counter for a few hours, put in the fridge for a day and a half, pulled it, let it get room temp, then rolled.

Since the sugar feeds the yeast, if I cut back on sugar, will it rise less? I don't know anything about pizza, but I'm always willing to learn new stuff  :)




Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #301 on: July 15, 2008, 01:59:29 PM »
If anyone is interest I've come up with a "cheater's recipe". But I'm pretty happy with it. Internal structure, tooth, crust are all "pretty close", ahh yah "bubbles" too. There are plenty of techniques I haven't bothered with sheeting/layering ect.

12 oz harvest king
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
.25 instant yeast

8.40 oz water approx. 90F

Lydia,

A couple questions about your RT cheater's recipe.

1. Have the ingredients changed in any way for the dough since you posted this?

2. What is the amount of IDY yeast that you use?  Is it 0.25% or 0.25 oz?

Thanks,

-ME  :chef:
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #302 on: July 15, 2008, 02:24:37 PM »
Gone_Fishin,

I did not post a reply on December 17, 2007. If you meant the recipe that member dland quoted on December 17, 2007 in Reply 240 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50835.html#msg50835, that was not the latest version.  The last (and, I believe, the best) version I made was posted at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg51105.html#msg51105.

As far as using fresh milk is concerned, I have avoided using fresh milk in pizza doughs because of the effect that a whey protein in fresh milk has on the gluten structure, as is discussed in a series of posts starting at Reply 9 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg47756.html#msg47756. It may well be that the amount of milk you used was not enough to affect the outcome in a material way.

I don't think the reduction of the amount of sugar was significant. Yeast feeds on simple sugars, whether initially in the flour or after conversion of more complex sugars to simple sugars, and one of the byproducts of feeding the yeast is the production of carbon dioxide gasses to cause the dough to rise, but I don't think that cutting back on the sugar would have a significant effect on gas production given the amount of yeast recited in the recipe you apparently used and the duration of the fermentation period you used.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #303 on: July 15, 2008, 03:18:43 PM »
ME

Yes that is the current recipe and yes, the instant yeast is .25 oz.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Gone_Fishin

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #304 on: July 15, 2008, 08:36:02 PM »
Pete-zza,

That explains a lot...I know which recipe I'll be trying this weekend  :D

Thanks!



Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #305 on: August 15, 2008, 07:52:12 PM »
Some very sad news....all 7 Round Table Pizzas in my area have closed down recently  :'(

Now I am determined to make it at home! Especially their garlic twists! Does anyone mind adding their best RT pizza dough formulation or a link to it in past posts? I'd appreciate it!

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #306 on: August 21, 2008, 12:16:00 PM »
A Round Table premix bag magically flew into my hands once upon a time in aland far away.

Premix: total exactly 24.25 lbs Add water only.

Flour -enriched wheat flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate,riboflavin, folic acid)
salt
partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil (Crisco)
sugar
nonfat dry milk
yeast


water 11 lbs at 80-85 degrees

Pete-zza has worked out the formula a couple of time if you read all the posts for RT part 1-3

Defer to his recipes. My take:

16 ounces flour

7 ounces water

1 1/2 tsp salt

1 1/2 tsp Crisco or veg oil

1 tsp sugar

1 tsp nonfat dry milk

1 tsp yeast instant dry

Mix, refrigerate overnight, make dough balls, roll dough out in a long thin sheet, business letter fold, repeat.

Top as desired. Preheat oven for 30-45 minutes.  Bake on highest temp.

Even better, find Pete's recipe.

BTW I live one block from an RT. (sorry)



Read all the posts because their is much more information on folding the dough which is how they get their texture together with the dry low hydration. 

Hope this helps.



« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 07:02:13 PM by elsegundo »

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #307 on: August 21, 2008, 01:59:56 PM »
Some very sad news....all 7 Round Table Pizzas in my area have closed down recently  :'(

Now I am determined to make it at home! Especially their garlic twists! Does anyone mind adding their best RT pizza dough formulation or a link to it in past posts? I'd appreciate it!

ThatOneGirl:

Do you happen to live in Idaho by chance?  I noticed Round Table had recently closed all 7 stores in that state.  I've noticed in the news lately they have been closing restaurants or some are converting to another chain.  I wonder if Round Table is withdrawing some of their franchised locations due to poor quality control? ???
Let them eat pizza.

Offline thatonegirl

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #308 on: August 22, 2008, 01:40:26 PM »
MadErnie,

I do live in Idaho. This was very sad news to me and my family because we love their garlic twists and wombo combo pizza!
From what I understand, and what the news around here has said, is that they just weren't making enough profit anymore in this area. That's all I have heard. I haven't seen any new chains popping up, in fact all of the RT locations are still empty. It's very sad  :(  The only other pizza place that we have around here that is anything like RT is called Idaho Pizza and they have almost the exact same style crust, just different pizzas.


elsegundo,

Thank you for posting your recipe  :D

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #309 on: August 22, 2008, 07:17:18 PM »
Recipe correction: make the water 7 ounces for a pound of water.  5 would be too dry.


Pizza restaurants may say it is the price of cheese or flour that is causing problems, but it really the general economy.

Cost is why many of us learned to make our own pizza to begin with.
Homemade pizza probably costs a dollar per pizza. Sometimes though it is nice to have the professionals like RT do the work and add the finishing touches that they have. They are so much better than the tomato sponges that other chains sell for less.  Hopefully, RT will be back.  BTW there was a great pizza in Ontario Oregon (something like Gold Mine or Klondike?) that used to be a Shakey's. Not sure which part of Idaho you are from.

One more good reason to travel the country.










Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #310 on: September 02, 2008, 09:31:26 AM »
Lydia:

Just wanted you to know I took a shot with your RT dough recipe this past weekend (finally!) and it came out pretty good.  Better than my previous attempts with the other recipe.  My wife said it was one of the best pizzas I've made to date.  I think that Quaker Oat tortilla flour really made a difference.  While it was cooking, it even smelled like what I remember from walking into a Round Table pizza parlor (I only visit the West Coast, never lived there, but we both LOVE Round Table). ;)

Pictures and details to come later.

Thanks for your tips and pics! :chef:

-ME
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:33:32 AM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #311 on: September 02, 2008, 11:18:26 AM »
Hi ME

Congrats! Happy to hear you had some good results. I'm looking forward to the pics and details.


Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #312 on: September 03, 2008, 12:13:58 AM »
Well I have relocated the family to Montana and as my luck would have it, there isn't a decent pizza to be seen for miles. There's a papa murphys, figaro's, and pizza hut. I am soo cringing for some RT. I am finally settled enough to get back into the kitchen. Certainly the motivation is rekindled! (damn you stomach!)

Seems like loose layers ala Lydia or a pasta roller ala elsegundo are as close as we're going to get for a true laminated crust. I might just break down and buy a sheeter.  Although these other methods are promising, it just takes so much time to prep. >:( Lydia your work with the tortilla mix has been genious. I really like the vid you made too.

All that and I actually have a question. What flour are you guys using for this recipe?? I know we discussed this at length, and true RT pizza is a malted, unbromated, high protein flour. But what do you use?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 12:15:38 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #313 on: September 03, 2008, 09:56:07 AM »
Dan:

The flour typically used in the various recipes for the Round Table clone has been Gold Medal Better-for-Bread/Harvest King.

Lydia:

Here are my results and how I came about getting them.

I started with your recipe for the dough as follows:

12 oz Harvest King bread flour
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
0.25 oz (1/2 Tbsp) instant yeast
8.40 oz water

I probably actually used a teaspoon of yeast instead of 1/2 a Tbsp due to being low on IDY.  The water temperature was approx. 95F. 

I used a KitchenAid mixer with the paddle attachment as this dough recipe and your wonderful photos reminded me more of a pie crust recipe, plus I don't have a large enough food processor.  It worked just fine.  I then placed the dough, wrapped in plastic-wrap, on the counter and let it sit.  Another alteration: I was only able to let it set at room temperature for 2.5 hours instead of 3-4 as you recommended.  Next time, I will go for the longer rise at room temperature.  I folded the dough as you demonstrated no more than 3 times.  After that, I placed the plastic-wrapped dough in a plastic zip-lock bag and put it in the refrigerator.  That was on Friday night at 10:30 PM.  I let the dough remain in the frig until Monday around 5 PM. 

I took the dough out of the refigerator without any further kneading.  It had clearly risen, although not as much as your video showed, which I attributed to the shorter room temp rise.  I then divided the dough into 4 balls and rolled them out into four 12" skins using a small amount of the HK flour.  As an aside, my rolling technique needs work.  I did better with the second 2 skins as the photos will show.  I still found it easier than using the pasta sheeter.

Next, I laid one skin over another to make a 2-layered crust and crimped the edges.  I then laid the crust on a wooden pizza paddle which again had a small amount of bread flour on it (I normally find semolina flour works the best for me, but I didn't want to 'contaminate' this recipe using semolina).  I then dressed the pizzas.

The sauce I used was again a modification of the one you have previously posted:
28 oz. canned tomato puree (Escalon 6-in-1 preferred)
3 oz tomato paste
1 Tbsp. fresh basil
2 tsp. sugar
1 tsp. Oregano
1 tsp. fennel seed
1 tsp. chili powder
1 tsp. powdered garlic
tsp. black pepper
tsp. cayenne pepper
tsp. onion powder
tsp. fine salt (used salt substitute, KCl)
Add water to desired consistency (usually about 6 oz.). 

I spread the sauce as far to the edge as possible to mimic the RT pizzas I've had.  I then added the cheese, an 80-10-10 mixture of shredded Mozzarella (Cosco), cheddar (Cosco), and provolone (some brand I picked up at Whole Foods). 

For toppings, I made the 2 pies nearly identical with italian sausage and portobello mushroom pieces, but my wife likes tomatoes so much that I add some chopped tomatoes to her pie.

For baking, I used my 2-stone grilling apparatus, as seen in the photo below, but I tried to keep the temperature between 625-675 degrees F to get closer to what I would expect from a commerical oven at an RT restaurant.  The cooking time was about 6-7 minutes.  The results speak for themselves.  The bubbling was definitely apparent on the first (triangular pizza), so much so that I had to pop it or I was afraid it would reach my upper stone and break it (I've had that happen once already).  The 2-stone worked just fine, but I think I will try my home oven next time for a comparison.

The aroma and basic taste of this RT clone was the closest I've come thus far to making a home-made pizza resemble a RT pizza.  My wife said it was one my best. :chef:

The sauce was very close to what I remember about RT, although I still think something is missing. Maybe more garlic powder or black pepper?  Possible even more fennel (I think the added fennel seed helped it recreate the taste quite well).

Another aside: there were tiny 'burnt' bits around the some of the edge of the pizza, again a familiar taste from what I remember about RT pizzas. :)

All in all, I call this a success and look forward to trying it again this coming weekend.  Many thanks!! :D

« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 01:19:02 PM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #314 on: September 03, 2008, 11:56:42 AM »
ME

Hey, that looks pretty darn GOOD!!! ;D

Here are some thoughts...

I would have gone with the whip attachment on the KA and added the water a table spoon at a time to reduce the chance of dough gumming of the whip. I feel that this would replicate the results of the food processor.

I can't imagine that the 2.5 rest would be very significant since you fermented the dough in the fridge. But, you didn't mention allowing the dough come to room temp. after comming out of the fridge. This is the time when the height of the second rise would have been more pronounced. But you did use less yeast, so maybe not.

Dividing the dough into 4 vs the 6 would give you layers a bit thicker than RT, it can reduce bubbling. If your stone will allow, 14-16" pizza would have gotten the layers thin enough. I've done 2 layers instead of the 3 and it's still pretty decent. After dividing the dough, you can roundout and tighten up (de-gass) the dough balls before rolling. This will lay down the foundation for nice round pizzas.

From the first pic it appears that you may be using a bit too much bench flour. If I had to guess, I'm using somewhere between 1/8-1/4 cup flour. But I have a very large rolling surface to cover. Sometimes we over-dust and push as much flour to the side as we can. It would appear like someone was just "hinting at" dusting the board with flour. My experience is that using the least amount of flour possible has better results.

Yes, do try the oven. When we BBQ the pizza we do dust the peel with semolina (we prefer the result with semolina when using the bbq) but roll out the dough with flour. I've been aiming for lower stone temps but I haven't been able to do the 2 stone method and need longer bake times to allow the cheese to melt.  Yours baked up better than mine do on the BBQ.  :chef:  I saw something on the internet this weekend that I think will work for my Grill so I can use 2 stones. yay!

For the sauce, you are correct, the fennel is a predominate flavor in the sauce.  I can't imagine that you would need more than you're already using, but I whirl the fennels seeds in a coffee/spice grinder, so if you're using whole seed or preground fennel it may be less potent. I would guess that for a recipe that small you'd only need a pinch, not more than 1/8 teaspoon. of ground fennel. You could probably increase the black pepper a bit, it just depends on the brand, type and age of pepper. I'm half tempted to use lemon pepper in place of or in addition to the black pepper. The sauce has something citrus that I cant quite duplicate. So you may want to give that a try as well. The cheap cellophane baggies of Mexican oregano is what RT is using, it has a very distinct flavor. I have a question..Did you managed to get some ESCALON TOMATO PUREE, or did you puree some 6 in 1's?

Again..Congats on your results  ;D
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #315 on: September 03, 2008, 12:14:13 PM »
I can't imagine that the 2.5 rest would be very significant since you fermented the dough in the fridge. But, you didn't mention allowing the dough come to room temp. after comming out of the fridge. This is the time when the height of the second rise would have been more pronounced. But you did use less yeast, so maybe not.

Dividing the dough into 4 vs the 6 would give you layers a bit thicker than RT, it can reduce bubbling. If your stone will allow, 14-16" pizza would have gotten the layers thin enough. I've done 2 layers instead of the 3 and it's still pretty decent. After dividing the dough, you can roundout and tighten up (de-gass) the dough balls before rolling. This will lay down the foundation for nice round pizzas.

For the sauce, you are correct, the fennel is a predominate flavor in the sauce.  I can't imagine that you would need more than you're already using, but I whirl the fennels seeds in a coffee/spice grinder, so if you're using whole seed or preground fennel it may be less potent. I would guess that for a recipe that small you'd only need a pinch, not more than 1/8 teaspoon. of ground fennel. You could probably increase the black pepper a bit, it just depends on the brand, type and age of pepper. I'm half tempted to use lemon pepper in place of or in addition to the black pepper. The sauce has something citrus that I cant quite duplicate. So you may want to give that a try as well. The cheap cellophane baggies of Mexican oregano is what RT is using, it has a very distinct flavor. I have a question..Did you managed to get some ESCALON TOMATO PUREE, or did you puree some 6 in 1's?

I did let the dough rest after taking it out of the frig.  I forgot to mention that fact.   :-[   It rested for approximately 2.5 hours.

I found the paddle to work just fine for this dough, but I might try your suggestion next time and see how it goes.

The dough did not rise enough for me to consider trying 6 balls instead of 4.  As it was, I thought the 2 layers I had for each pizza were pretty thin.  That is why I think I need an initial proofing time expanded to your original recommendation, closer to 4 hours.  My current stone will only hold a 12-13" pizza.  That is another reason I want to try using my oven.  (I would also like to get one of Willard's 15-inch stones, too ;))  Also, another reason for using the full 0.25 oz of yeast next time.  However, the flavor of this crust was still exceptional.

I puree'd the 6-in-1's.  I used the whole fennel seed.  I'll trying grinding them up next time, which should release more of their flavor.  I will also see if I can find some Mexican oregano.  We have enough Hispanic food markets near me now that I would hope one of them would have some.

The bench flour you see is more than I used.  I suspect it was probably 1/8 cup per skin.

Thanks again! ;D

-ME

A few more shots of the product during and post-bake.  I will try to remember to shoot some footage of the making process next time.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 12:17:25 PM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #316 on: September 03, 2008, 12:42:32 PM »
Hey Dan!

Glad to hear things are settled and that your back on the forum!  ;D Harvest King is THE flour. It appears that GM has repackaged it under the old "Better for Bread" label so the flour is in a yellow bag instead of the lime green and brown label when originally introduced.

Oh BTW, I've been wanting to tell you that I used my RT dough to make pretzels. I didn't have lye but used baking soda instead. They turned out like the SuperPretzel brand except that they didn't have the smooth shiny surface. I'm still working on that part.

I tried to post the pics but they're too big, so I'll try to reduce them and post in another message.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #317 on: September 03, 2008, 01:20:01 PM »
I suspect RT's flour actually comes from Pendleton Mills.

http://www.pfmills.com/pfmweb.nsf/premiumpizzamixes.htm

I also suspect their flour recipe is uniquely made and not one of the pre-made brands, but I certainly could be wrong about that.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #318 on: September 05, 2008, 02:16:11 PM »
Lydia:

I picked up some Mexican oregano at my local Penzey's spice store last night.  I can't wait to give a try with my next batch of sauce. :chef:

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #319 on: September 15, 2008, 10:55:33 AM »
I checked on the Harvest King Flour, they are now suppose to be the same but I have been running into older bags of better for bread, so you'll need to watch the ingredients. The "old bags" (non harvest king) Better for bread will have ascorbic acid.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.