Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 237343 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #320 on: October 09, 2008, 01:19:35 PM »
To add to this topic on the Gold Medal Better for Bread/Harvest King flour that Lydia provided, please see a more recent discussion here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7249.0.html

It appears Betty Crocker/Gold Medal is returning to the old yellow bags.
 :pizza:

-ME
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 01:23:37 PM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.


Offline Shaklee3

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 56
  • Location: San Diego, CA
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #321 on: July 27, 2009, 11:01:55 AM »
Sorry to drag up an old topic, but this was the only place I could find where people tried to duplicate RT's recipe. That being said, RT pan (thick) crust is my favorite crust of any pizza place I've been to. I know it's not popular to think a chain's pizza is superior than any other I've had, but their crust and sauce is truly unique.

When I found this thread I immediately wanted to try to see if I could replicate this recipe at home. I tried Lydia's shortcut recipe on Saturday after gathering all the ingredients necessary. First off, I didn't realize that the dough was supposed to be barely mixed when I first read this forum, so I ended up mixing all of the ingredients in the Kitchenaid with a dough hook. The dough was formed into a tight ball, then left on the counter for 5 hours. It was then refrigerated overnight and taken out to sit on the counter for 2 hours before baking. I divided the dough into 6 equal-sized balls to make two pizzas with 3 layers. However, I had the same problem as a previous poster where the balls were just not big enough to be rolled out to 12 inches. Not only that, but it was very flexible and would snap back as I rolled it. Would rolling it immediately out of the refrigerator help with that?

Anyways, I ended up making 2 layers for each pizza instead of 3 so that I could get a full 12 inches. I baked it on my Fibrament baking stone on the bottom rack at 500 degrees. The crust turned out better than any homemade pizza I've made, but there's still one key thing missing: the outside of the crust is crispy and not tender. I don't know if it's because I used a baking stone, but RT's thick crust is always tender on the outside.

I plan to try Pete's recipe next, but if anyone has any more suggestions I'd appreciate it. Also, Pete if you are still around and interested in replicating this still, I'd be willing to mail you a slice frozen with dry ice. You could imagine I'd go to almost any length to replicate this crust.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21900
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #322 on: July 27, 2009, 11:45:23 AM »
Shaklee3,

I have attempted to reverse engineer pizzas I have never had on several occasions, and there are usually barriers to successfully cloning the pizzas. In the case of the Round Table pizza, it is the lack of a commercial sheeter. Also, the RT ovens are commercial ovens that are much different than what I and most other home pizza makers use. To complicate matters further, it appears that different RT stores produce somewhat different pizzas, with different crust textures, colors and characteristics. I have concluded that I would have to visit stores in person to get a better idea as to the nature and composition of the pizzas, and to taste the pizzas, and also to observe the way they are produced. Even that isn't always possible or easy, since physical store layouts can minimize what you can see of the pizza making processes from the customer side.

I will be interested in the results you get when you try the RT clone formulation I posted.

Peter

Offline Shaklee3

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 56
  • Location: San Diego, CA
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #323 on: July 27, 2009, 12:17:30 PM »
Thanks! I'll try your clone sometimes this week. Also, I've probably been to about 10 different RTs in California, and for the most part, they are the same. Every once in a while you get a pizza with not enough sauce on it, but the dough taste on pan crust doesn't vary too much from what I've found.

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 833
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #324 on: July 27, 2009, 02:14:05 PM »
Shaklee3

Welcome to the board, always happy to met a fellow RT fan. I haven't made the thick crust in a while, but it may be helpful to know that RT thick crusts are handled differently.

The skins are proofed in the pans that are sprayed with nonstick spray, some places hold them overnight in the fridge some only use dough made fresh that morning. They are proofed at room temperature until nearly doubled. The pans are special but I have had good luck with using a pan that has holes the size of RT's on the bottom and baking on the baking stone. If I want more bottom browning, I will remove the pizza at the end of baking onto the stone. Using the cheater recipe without dividing should make an ideal thick crust at 14" but will work for 16" inch also. What I have witnessed is that the thick crust pizzas are first put through the conveyor in the pan then removed from the pan and placed through the conveyor and removed when almost half way through.

Also, I'm pretty confident that the thick crusts aren't layered, they are put through the sheeter individually scaled, whereas the thin crusts are cut from layers of sheeted dough.

For the cheater recipe there should be some snap-back but not a lot. Overmixing (mixing with the kitchenaid) will definitely increase the snap-back problem you experienced, rolling right out of the fridge will also increase the snap-back.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #325 on: July 27, 2009, 02:36:20 PM »
Shaklee:

Do a forum search in this thread with the words "Round Table thick crust" and you will find a few tidbits, but most of the discussion has been on the more traditional thin crust that RT uses.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #326 on: August 26, 2009, 10:46:51 PM »
The wife and I had a couple friends over for pizza some weeks back and we made the theme Chicago-style.  This included a BTB-style Chicago deep-dish pizza (spinach and mushroom) and a southside thin-crust pizza (pineapple and ham).  I decided to use Lydia's Round Table Pizza recipe since I have had good luck with it and thought I was getting the hang of it pretty well. 

As a refresher, her recipe is as follows (I made a 14-inch pizza):
Lydia’s Cheater Round Table recipe

12 oz Harvest King bread flour
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
0.25 oz (1/2 Tbsp) instant yeast
8.40 oz water approx. 90°F

Process in food processor until just combined.
Some yeast will not be dissolved.
 
Use the metal chopping blade and pulse the food processor, just until the crumbs start to stick together and the dough just barely holds together.

Dump the dough/crumbs onto plastic wrap and seal it up.

Proof at the very least 3-4 hours room temp

Halfway through the "rest", fold the dough log 2-3 times to help incorporate the crumbs and yeast.  Don't fold more than 3 times - the more you work it, the tougher the dough gets.  After folding is a good time to divide the dough into balls if you plan on layering the dough (which I highly encourage, the layers are wonderful and really help get the big bubbles).

I followed her recipe and made the following alterations:
1. I separated the dough into 3 balls instead of her usual 4 to make the layers.
2. I used a 2stone baking grill to cook the pizza.  I used semolina flour to help with the transfer from the peel to the 2stone.

I also docked the dough after putting the layers together.

Also, in keeping with the theme, I cut the pizza into 'party-cut' squares.

Below are the results (don't let the screen fool you - we only used it as a serving device):
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:24:33 AM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 833
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #327 on: August 27, 2009, 12:28:24 AM »
Hey there ME

It's looks like you've got it nailed. Look at those bubbles and layers..I'm drooling  :P

Congrats!
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #328 on: August 27, 2009, 09:23:00 AM »
Hey there ME

It's looks like you've got it nailed. Look at those bubbles and layers..I'm drooling  :P

Congrats!

Thanks, Lydia.  I take that as a high compliment coming from you.  This one turned out fabulously.  I am making a trip to California next month so I plan to get some of the real thing while I am there.  Meantime, I'm enjoying the fun of being able to make my own.  Even my wife thought this was the best one I've made. :chef:
Let them eat pizza.

Offline bustmethods

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #329 on: October 01, 2009, 07:52:16 AM »
Can anyone post the ingredients of the Harvest King bread flour? I believe I read that it was a Gold Medal product but I didnt see the exact product on their site.

I recently moved to Australia and I miss my Round Table!  :'(

They also dont have the same products over here so Im going to have to see what I can find in the way of flour tortilla mix as well.


Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #330 on: October 01, 2009, 09:22:53 AM »
Bustmethods:

I am not entirely sure ift you mean ingredients or nutrition information, but the nutrition information and ingredients for the Gold Medal bread flour can be found here http://www.generalmills.com/corporate/brands/product_image.aspx?catID=60&itemID=1914

The name appears to have changed in most places from Harvest King back to Better for Bread in a yellow and white bag.  The HK came in an olive green bag, but it is the same flour.

One of the keys is the Gold Medal BfB flour has a gluten protein content similar to the flour used by Round Table Pizza restaurants.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21900
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #331 on: October 01, 2009, 10:49:02 AM »
For some reason, General Mills has kept the specs for the Harvest King flour at its website, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc

Peter


Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #332 on: October 01, 2009, 11:37:44 AM »
Thanks, Peter.  I was having trouble finding that other weblink.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline bustmethods

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #333 on: October 01, 2009, 10:26:22 PM »
Thanks guys! I did see the new package on their site and if my internet was working properly down under I could have seen the pictures on the previous page. I'll have to look around the stores here and see if I can find a flour with a similar ingredients list.

I dont think I will be able to get the flour tortilla mix here after calling the only mexican stores I could find. They have plain white flour but nothing like a prepared mix to make tortillas. So, I guess that leaves me with trying to find a tortilla recipe that makes them similar to the tortillas produced by Quakers mix. I found several dairy free recipes that have similar ingredients and amounts of each. How do you think this would work in place of a prepared mix? Im leaning towards the recipe(s) with baking powder since Quaker has a lot of ingredients. I am thinking I should leaving out the water but I might need the shortening/lard. I cant see the instructions on Quakers site to see if you need to add shortening and water when preparing. Can anyone tell me?

These are the recipes I found:

4 c. flour
2 tsp. salt
2 tsp. baking powder
4 tbsp. shortening
1 1/2 c. warm water


•   3 cups all-purpose flour
•   5 tablespoons lard or vegetable shortening
•   1 teaspoon salt
•   1 cup very warm tap water


•   3 cups of white all purpose flour
•   ½ tsp of salt
•   1 tsp baking powder
•   ½ cup of lard or vegtable shortening
•   1 cup of hot water

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #334 on: October 02, 2009, 08:58:19 AM »
Bustmethods:

Rather than trying to recreate the harina preparada flour from Quaker, my suggestion would be to look at some of the previous posts by Petezza in this thread that use some key ingredients, including shortening and Baker's dry milk.

Follow along down this page:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.240.html

You may want to try playing around a little with the sugar, salt, dry milk, and shortening, but basically I think these are all key ingredients in replicating a Round Table pizza dough.  It will save you some time and frustration rather than trying to replicate another flour.

Good luck! :chef:
Let them eat pizza.

Offline TipJockey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #335 on: October 30, 2009, 08:19:15 AM »
Mad Ernie, that looks surprisingly close on top. The bottom not so much.

I've worked at a Round Table Pizza (one of the San Francisco stores...won't say which one) for 4 years and I can point out a few things that might get a desirable effect for the bottom.

 While I don't know exactly how the electric moving track oven can be replicated. Pizzas baked for 7-9 minutes at 500 degrees F. Some workers put it at 525F to save the trouble of running it through the oven a 2nd time but halfway (for well done thin crusts, "skinny" crust and fully cooked pan pizza which add another 3-5 total of 10-14 minutes at 500F). A Pizza stone works for NY styled pizza but it's going to get some different results for a RT style pizza.

Consider getting a docker. Doesn't matter which one really, the plastic or metal ones were both used in the shifts I've worked but I prefer the metal ones. This will keep the crust from bubbling

You also might want to consider using a perforated sheet (spray that sheet with cooking oil too before placing your dough for that soft buttery crust) and prepare the pizza DIRECTLY on said pan. It's a bonus for replicating that grooved look. We used dark sheets 98% of the time, only our extra large pan sheets had light reflective surfaces.

We never used cornmeal either, except on the Artisan that is.

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #336 on: October 30, 2009, 09:27:43 AM »
TipJockey:

Thank you for the inside information.  There is a good chance I've been to your Round Table pizza restaurant.  I've been to 2 of them in San Francisco proper (North Point Street and Van Ness) and one in South San Francisco.  I try to go to one at least once any time I am out on the West Coast.

I agree the bottom does not look as authentic as a Round Table pizza, but the taste is pretty darn close, and that's what's important to me.  I don't really bother looking at the bottom of the pizza, I just posted the photo to show how done the underside of the crust was. 

I do use a dough docker for my crust.

I have tried screens but they don't do as good of a job in my home oven as the pizza stone.  The bottoms tend not to get as cooked and so you I end up with an undercooked bottom but a well cooked top.  I may try moving the the oven rack around more and see if I can get my screens to perform better.  The idea of the pizza stone came from Lydia, the very nice lady  :) who developed the Round Table pizza clone recipe that I use.

Please feel free to let us in on any other information you have about ingredients or cooking techniques for Round Table Pizza.  If I lived out west, I'd be there every week, but alas, I am unable to get it out here in the Midwest where I live.


-ME  8)
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 812
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #337 on: November 11, 2009, 01:59:46 AM »
Tipjockey, I'd like to ask you a question about dough laminating technique if you don't mind. When you guys laminate your dough is the final pass merely holding the layers together or do you actually drop the thickness factor down to further thin out the dough? Can you provide any insight at all on the lamination process such as number of folds, number of passes, etc. ? Thanks.

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 812
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #338 on: November 11, 2009, 02:02:52 AM »

I dont think I will be able to get the flour tortilla mix here after calling the only mexican stores I could find. They have plain white flour but nothing like a prepared mix to make tortillas. So, I guess that leaves me with trying to find a tortilla recipe that makes them similar to the tortillas produced by Quakers mix.

Look around online. I have purchased it online before. Not very cost effective, but neither is making this pizza style at home!

Offline Mad_Ernie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 727
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Kansas City area
Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #339 on: January 04, 2010, 11:23:18 AM »
My most recent home-made Round Table clone results using Lydia's dough formula.   The pizza was 14"  1/2 pepperoni and 1/2 ham with mushrooms throughout, cooked on a pizza screen which I placed on a preheated pizza stone.  Enjoy.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 11:24:57 AM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.