Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 290502 times)

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #325 on: July 27, 2009, 02:36:20 PM »
Shaklee:

Do a forum search in this thread with the words "Round Table thick crust" and you will find a few tidbits, but most of the discussion has been on the more traditional thin crust that RT uses.
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #326 on: August 26, 2009, 10:46:51 PM »
The wife and I had a couple friends over for pizza some weeks back and we made the theme Chicago-style.  This included a BTB-style Chicago deep-dish pizza (spinach and mushroom) and a southside thin-crust pizza (pineapple and ham).  I decided to use Lydia's Round Table Pizza recipe since I have had good luck with it and thought I was getting the hang of it pretty well. 

As a refresher, her recipe is as follows (I made a 14-inch pizza):
Lydia’s Cheater Round Table recipe

12 oz Harvest King bread flour
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
0.25 oz (1/2 Tbsp) instant yeast
8.40 oz water approx. 90°F

Process in food processor until just combined.
Some yeast will not be dissolved.
 
Use the metal chopping blade and pulse the food processor, just until the crumbs start to stick together and the dough just barely holds together.

Dump the dough/crumbs onto plastic wrap and seal it up.

Proof at the very least 3-4 hours room temp

Halfway through the "rest", fold the dough log 2-3 times to help incorporate the crumbs and yeast.  Don't fold more than 3 times - the more you work it, the tougher the dough gets.  After folding is a good time to divide the dough into balls if you plan on layering the dough (which I highly encourage, the layers are wonderful and really help get the big bubbles).

I followed her recipe and made the following alterations:
1. I separated the dough into 3 balls instead of her usual 4 to make the layers.
2. I used a 2stone baking grill to cook the pizza.  I used semolina flour to help with the transfer from the peel to the 2stone.

I also docked the dough after putting the layers together.

Also, in keeping with the theme, I cut the pizza into 'party-cut' squares.

Below are the results (don't let the screen fool you - we only used it as a serving device):
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:24:33 AM by Mad_Ernie »
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #327 on: August 27, 2009, 12:28:24 AM »
Hey there ME

It's looks like you've got it nailed. Look at those bubbles and layers..I'm drooling  :P

Congrats!
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #328 on: August 27, 2009, 09:23:00 AM »
Hey there ME

It's looks like you've got it nailed. Look at those bubbles and layers..I'm drooling  :P

Congrats!

Thanks, Lydia.  I take that as a high compliment coming from you.  This one turned out fabulously.  I am making a trip to California next month so I plan to get some of the real thing while I am there.  Meantime, I'm enjoying the fun of being able to make my own.  Even my wife thought this was the best one I've made. :chef:
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Offline bustmethods

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #329 on: October 01, 2009, 07:52:16 AM »
Can anyone post the ingredients of the Harvest King bread flour? I believe I read that it was a Gold Medal product but I didnt see the exact product on their site.

I recently moved to Australia and I miss my Round Table!  :'(

They also dont have the same products over here so Im going to have to see what I can find in the way of flour tortilla mix as well.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #330 on: October 01, 2009, 09:22:53 AM »
Bustmethods:

I am not entirely sure ift you mean ingredients or nutrition information, but the nutrition information and ingredients for the Gold Medal bread flour can be found here http://www.generalmills.com/corporate/brands/product_image.aspx?catID=60&itemID=1914

The name appears to have changed in most places from Harvest King back to Better for Bread in a yellow and white bag.  The HK came in an olive green bag, but it is the same flour.

One of the keys is the Gold Medal BfB flour has a gluten protein content similar to the flour used by Round Table Pizza restaurants.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #331 on: October 01, 2009, 10:49:02 AM »
For some reason, General Mills has kept the specs for the Harvest King flour at its website, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc

Peter


Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #332 on: October 01, 2009, 11:37:44 AM »
Thanks, Peter.  I was having trouble finding that other weblink.
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Offline bustmethods

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #333 on: October 01, 2009, 10:26:22 PM »
Thanks guys! I did see the new package on their site and if my internet was working properly down under I could have seen the pictures on the previous page. I'll have to look around the stores here and see if I can find a flour with a similar ingredients list.

I dont think I will be able to get the flour tortilla mix here after calling the only mexican stores I could find. They have plain white flour but nothing like a prepared mix to make tortillas. So, I guess that leaves me with trying to find a tortilla recipe that makes them similar to the tortillas produced by Quakers mix. I found several dairy free recipes that have similar ingredients and amounts of each. How do you think this would work in place of a prepared mix? Im leaning towards the recipe(s) with baking powder since Quaker has a lot of ingredients. I am thinking I should leaving out the water but I might need the shortening/lard. I cant see the instructions on Quakers site to see if you need to add shortening and water when preparing. Can anyone tell me?

These are the recipes I found:

4 c. flour
2 tsp. salt
2 tsp. baking powder
4 tbsp. shortening
1 1/2 c. warm water


•   3 cups all-purpose flour
•   5 tablespoons lard or vegetable shortening
•   1 teaspoon salt
•   1 cup very warm tap water


•   3 cups of white all purpose flour
•   ½ tsp of salt
•   1 tsp baking powder
•   ½ cup of lard or vegtable shortening
•   1 cup of hot water


Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #334 on: October 02, 2009, 08:58:19 AM »
Bustmethods:

Rather than trying to recreate the harina preparada flour from Quaker, my suggestion would be to look at some of the previous posts by Petezza in this thread that use some key ingredients, including shortening and Baker's dry milk.

Follow along down this page:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.240.html

You may want to try playing around a little with the sugar, salt, dry milk, and shortening, but basically I think these are all key ingredients in replicating a Round Table pizza dough.  It will save you some time and frustration rather than trying to replicate another flour.

Good luck! :chef:
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Offline TipJockey

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #335 on: October 30, 2009, 08:19:15 AM »
Mad Ernie, that looks surprisingly close on top. The bottom not so much.

I've worked at a Round Table Pizza (one of the San Francisco stores...won't say which one) for 4 years and I can point out a few things that might get a desirable effect for the bottom.

 While I don't know exactly how the electric moving track oven can be replicated. Pizzas baked for 7-9 minutes at 500 degrees F. Some workers put it at 525F to save the trouble of running it through the oven a 2nd time but halfway (for well done thin crusts, "skinny" crust and fully cooked pan pizza which add another 3-5 total of 10-14 minutes at 500F). A Pizza stone works for NY styled pizza but it's going to get some different results for a RT style pizza.

Consider getting a docker. Doesn't matter which one really, the plastic or metal ones were both used in the shifts I've worked but I prefer the metal ones. This will keep the crust from bubbling

You also might want to consider using a perforated sheet (spray that sheet with cooking oil too before placing your dough for that soft buttery crust) and prepare the pizza DIRECTLY on said pan. It's a bonus for replicating that grooved look. We used dark sheets 98% of the time, only our extra large pan sheets had light reflective surfaces.

We never used cornmeal either, except on the Artisan that is.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #336 on: October 30, 2009, 09:27:43 AM »
TipJockey:

Thank you for the inside information.  There is a good chance I've been to your Round Table pizza restaurant.  I've been to 2 of them in San Francisco proper (North Point Street and Van Ness) and one in South San Francisco.  I try to go to one at least once any time I am out on the West Coast.

I agree the bottom does not look as authentic as a Round Table pizza, but the taste is pretty darn close, and that's what's important to me.  I don't really bother looking at the bottom of the pizza, I just posted the photo to show how done the underside of the crust was. 

I do use a dough docker for my crust.

I have tried screens but they don't do as good of a job in my home oven as the pizza stone.  The bottoms tend not to get as cooked and so you I end up with an undercooked bottom but a well cooked top.  I may try moving the the oven rack around more and see if I can get my screens to perform better.  The idea of the pizza stone came from Lydia, the very nice lady  :) who developed the Round Table pizza clone recipe that I use.

Please feel free to let us in on any other information you have about ingredients or cooking techniques for Round Table Pizza.  If I lived out west, I'd be there every week, but alas, I am unable to get it out here in the Midwest where I live.


-ME  8)
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #337 on: November 11, 2009, 01:59:46 AM »
Tipjockey, I'd like to ask you a question about dough laminating technique if you don't mind. When you guys laminate your dough is the final pass merely holding the layers together or do you actually drop the thickness factor down to further thin out the dough? Can you provide any insight at all on the lamination process such as number of folds, number of passes, etc. ? Thanks.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #338 on: November 11, 2009, 02:02:52 AM »

I dont think I will be able to get the flour tortilla mix here after calling the only mexican stores I could find. They have plain white flour but nothing like a prepared mix to make tortillas. So, I guess that leaves me with trying to find a tortilla recipe that makes them similar to the tortillas produced by Quakers mix.

Look around online. I have purchased it online before. Not very cost effective, but neither is making this pizza style at home!

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #339 on: January 04, 2010, 11:23:18 AM »
My most recent home-made Round Table clone results using Lydia's dough formula.   The pizza was 14"  1/2 pepperoni and 1/2 ham with mushrooms throughout, cooked on a pizza screen which I placed on a preheated pizza stone.  Enjoy.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 11:24:57 AM by Mad_Ernie »
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Offline TipJockey

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #340 on: January 10, 2010, 10:09:55 AM »
Tipjockey, I'd like to ask you a question about dough laminating technique if you don't mind. When you guys laminate your dough is the final pass merely holding the layers together or do you actually drop the thickness factor down to further thin out the dough? Can you provide any insight at all on the lamination process such as number of folds, number of passes, etc. ? Thanks.

 I never worked in dough making (very few members on the service floor did at my department, it was often the job of the dishwasher who clocks in before all but the supervisor) though from what I observed it's far less special than you'd expect.

 The crust ingredients came as a "kit" (like our sauce), just add warm water and it's good for the mixer. Then it goes into a plastic bag and put into the walk-in to rise.

 The dough that's already fermented goes into a dough press machine which varies our thin and pan crusts. I wish I could say really but I can't imagine where lamination fits in the process really, the thin crust skins didn't look as though they had layers when they were cold. To get an idea of what we worked with before it goes in the over, try putting two pennies flat together to get an idea of the ideal depth and imagine a disc that's SLIGHTLY softer than clay for the density.

 A good, cold ,dusted thin crust skin barely feels like dough at all.

Offline ronathon01

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #341 on: January 12, 2010, 03:01:11 PM »
Hello, This is a response to the texture of the thick crust dough that round table makes.
 I am a former Round Table employee. I was employed when Round Table used the brick
ovens to prepare there pizza. I believe that this is the best way to prepare pizza. But when
it come to the thick crust pizza at round table, they not only bake it in a pizza pan with dime
size holes all over the bottom of it but we lined the pizza pan with a thin layer of olive oil. I do
not recall the cooking temp though. Also when rolling out the dough make sure that there is plenty
of flour on it when you roll it out. When the pizza skin is rolled out to size, relax it by pushing the
edges back in and roll it again until it is to the desired size. Always end with relaxing the pizza skin.
That way it does not shrink or turn into a football shape. The color of the crust when it is done
should also be the same color of a used wooden cutting board. The best way I can describe it is
a medium brown. During the baking process always pop the bubbles, it prevents the cheese from
burning and the toppings from sliding to the middle of the pizza. I cannot tell you the actual recipe for
the dough because of copy rights and I really don't know anyways. It came in a premixed bag.
 I hope this helps people in there quest in creating a finer home brewed pizza.

              Good Luck, and Bake on...

                                 Yours Truly, Ronathon


Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #342 on: January 12, 2010, 10:10:49 PM »
Here again are the exact ingredients for Round Table Pizza Crust Mix 24.25 lbs (11.00 KG), add water only:
Water to be added is 80-85 degree 11 pounds of it
Enriched bleached wheat flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid)

salt

partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil

sugar

nonfat dry milk

yeast                 Mix 6 1/2 minutes on speed #1, put in bags and into the cooler.

Just a reminder.

Offline fazzari

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #343 on: January 14, 2010, 08:55:58 PM »
Well, it's been over 2 years since I first attempted Peter's RT clone..and the last one was so good I thought I'd try it again with my improved lamination process.  I'm making this pizza, knowing I definitely want it laminated and so I'm devising my process to accomodate my rolling pin, and to make it simple.

The recipe is
100% high gluten flour
 48%  hot water
 1.75% salt
 1.50% oil
 1.25% sugar
 1.25% nonfat dry milk
  .40% SAF yeast

Put all dry ingredients in KitchenAid bowl and mix.  Add hot water (I used 115 degree) and oil and mix.  I mixed mine for 5 minutes.  Cover bowl with plastic and place in a barely warm oven for 90 minutes.  After 90 minutes my dough was warm and soft.  I took my dough to my dough board (this was a 30 ounce dough ball, and using my rolling pin I sheeted a piece of dough that was 23 inches by 15 inches the same size as my dough board.  This might have taken 1 minute..it was very easy!!  I then folded this sheet in thirds and then into half making a piece of dough six layers thick.  I then proceeded to sheet this piece of dough into another sheet which was 23 inches by 15 inches.  The secret to accomplishing this is to take your time and let the dough rest when it starts pulling back..just cover it with a cloth and walk away for a couple minutes.  It took me about 10 minutes to roll this sheet, but most of this time is rest time for the dough....the process is actually very easy.

From this sheet I cut out 5 skins with a 7 1/2 inch plate.  I then put these skins in the freezer for 1 hour, and then I stacked them in my refrigerator until I used them.  You can see from one of my photos, that even with a six layer lamination I was able to roll the final skins out to 1/8 inch.  I let the skins refrigerate for 22 hours and then decided to try a couple.  The pizza shown is a 71/4 inch skin which weighs 3.55 ounce.

I am convinced that these types of skins get the best texture by baking them right on the hearth, in my case I have unglazed quarry tiles.  It only makes sense because the faster you get heat to the bottom of the skin, the better oven spring you will get and also the crispier pizza you will get.  You can see just how gorgeous the bottom of the skin turned out.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #344 on: April 24, 2010, 07:44:05 PM »
The sauce I used was again a modification of the one you have previously posted:
28 oz. canned tomato puree (Escalon 6-in-1 preferred)
3 oz tomato paste
1 Tbsp. fresh basil
2 tsp. sugar
1½ tsp. Oregano
1½ tsp. fennel seed
1 tsp. chili powder
1 tsp. powdered garlic
½ tsp. black pepper
¼ tsp. cayenne pepper
¼ tsp. onion powder
¼ tsp. fine salt (used salt substitute, KCl)
Add water to desired consistency (usually about 6 oz.). 

I spread the sauce as far to the edge as possible to mimic the RT pizzas I've had.  I then added the cheese, an 80-10-10 mixture of shredded Mozzarella (Cosco), cheddar (Cosco), and provolone (some brand I picked up at Whole Foods). 


ME, is this still the recipe you're using for the RT sauce clone? Also are you still using 80-10-10 on the cheese?

My sheeter will be here in about a week and I am preparing my first plan of attack on this style. Interestingly, there are no pizza places within 200 miles where I live that make a laminated crust pizza.

I smell a potential business in the making...

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #345 on: April 24, 2010, 09:58:32 PM »
Dan:

Yes, these are the sauce and cheese I am still using.  I don't think the sauce is really that close to the real thing.  I think Round Table actually uses a Hunt's product (sauce or paste) with a spice blend that I have been trying to duplicate.  The cheese is spot on, though.

-ME
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #346 on: April 24, 2010, 10:21:46 PM »
I recall Lydia making the same comment to me in pm regarding the sauce being a hunts product. Whatever it is I definitely think it's a paste or processed tomato puree and not anything fresh or bright as 6 in 1s. With no RT around me for miles this is going to be difficult to nail down, however your list is a great start.

I recently began doing a lot of chinese cooking and there was a big culinary lesson I learned - A lot of individual components of a dish rarely taste good by themselves. I recall getting some sauce on the side of a local pizza joint that I absolutely loved. The pizza was a laminated crust with an unbelievable fermented beer flavor profile. The sauce alone tasted horrible. Almost like it had cheap wine or bitter cheap beer in it. Mix it with some yeasty laminated crust, some greasy cheese and oohh man it was heaven. Back to RT sauce, I have tasted it cold before and wasn't impressed, but it's this "not impressed" profile one needs to shoot for when trying to make the sauce. You won't really KNOW how it tastes until you make the pie and you see how it complements the other items in the dish. I guesss what I am saying is I never used to view cooking like this. I always tried to make each individual component taste good in their own right. But this Chinese cooking thing has really taught me the best dishes have ingredients that play off one another. Sweet and sour, spicy and sweet, salty and sweet. this even applied to textures, cruchy and soft, chewy and crisp, etc.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #347 on: May 03, 2010, 09:31:03 PM »
Hey Dan

I found my last RT sauce clone but, since it was on my zip drive I don't have my hand written notes that go with it. But I do remember I was pretty excited about this one. And unfortunately it didn't have the quantity or the type of tomato product. I was mixing the spices prior to adding them to the sauce.

1-tsp Mexican oregano
1-tsp cayenne
1-tsp ground coriander
1-tsp ground fennel seeds
1-tsp garlic powder
1-tsp onion powder
1-tsp ancho chili powder
1/2-tsp California or new Mexico chili powder
1/2-tsp ground cumin
1/2-tsp black pepper
1/2-tsp white pepper

I remember I added a bit of ginger but I don't remember if I thought it was right. I remember the coriander enhanced all the other spices and was the citrus-piney aroma that I was having trouble identifying.

If I can I will try to give this another go. I've got a good feeling.

The current RT sauce is made withHeinz tomato paste.


Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #348 on: May 04, 2010, 11:19:25 AM »
Thanks Lydia!

That sauce from ME was delicious! I used 1 - 28oz can of sauce and one small can of tomato paste and it tasted very "bright". I have been tasting it over a few days now to see if oxidation mellows out the tomato a bit, but it hasn't. Do you know if they use paste exclusively and dilute it in water? I think it's the sauce version that is giving it this bright taste.

How about cheese? Do you know who they are using for their cheese supply? I looked online for cheese retailers that were around since the 50's and are currently using non-rennet enzyme. Tillamook looks like a good suspect. They've been around for a while. I don't see that they make provolone, but perhaps for the commerical folks it's different? I also haven't played much with this cheese to evaluate the stretch, etc. but from what I recall there is a lot of oil-off from the cheese on RT pizza. I was also thinking that the cheese supplier is most likely on the west coast, only because back in the 50's and 60's it was a lot more difficult to get fresh goods across the country. Do you think this is the case?

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #349 on: May 04, 2010, 12:39:09 PM »
Dan

Tillamook doesn't make mozz. I've use the Monterey jack on my homemade RT but I vaguely remember that it doesn't quite melt to the right consistency. I think it melted too liquidy. But the mild or medium cheddar should be fine. But sometimes when you mix brands they don't melt well and can become gritty or streaked and gloppy. Golden California brand was the last know cheese supplier. The cheddar is aged, the provelone is smoked (but I don't taste it much) and the mozz is whole milk. The Private label cheese "First Street" from Smart & Final and Cash & Carry IS the Golden California brand. Golden California Brand is a dairy co-op and spans most of central California and is distributed mostly under private labels as well as "golden California" brand that has a picture of the golden gate across it's label. I believe the store brand, Joseph farms from Save Mart is another one. I don't know what to recommend in Montana. California's cheese distribution has grown alot. Look for the Gold California cheese seal and try those. Otherwise Precious whole milk mozz. is close. Kraft polly-o was ok. I can't find the right provelone, all the ones I'm finding are too strong and overpower everything, even if i just sprinkle some on. So I've had to switch to using 50/50 mozz and Monterey jack and occasionally sprinkle the cheddar on top (this is how it used to be done. the cheddar wasn't always mixed in.) I don't focus much on what the rennet is, RT didn't always use veg rennet. I'm more concerned with flavor and texture.

Something to keep in mind about the cheese is that in your home oven you want the cheese to just get completely melted and not much futher than that. With the brands I've been using 550 has been ideal with 500F working out alright. anything below that the cheese is a oily gloppy mess and nasty to boot. The RT in Kauai sp?? still uses the deck ovens and they say their crusts are superior to the mainland, they're more moist and tender and still have the right amount of crisp. They even still play white Snake on the juke.

Oscar Meyer pepperoni is the closest consummer brand I have found to RT pepperoni but Kraft has reformulated everything, and I mean everthing, so I don't know if this is still true.

The tomato flavor shouldn't be bright but not tinny either. food service paste or concentrated crushed is what you really need. At RT very little water is added to the paste. Additional water is added after storing in the refrigerator. how much water you'll need is going to be dependent on the brand you use. But it should still be heavy and paste like. It should still cling to a spoon without dropping and not spread evenly. When they spread the sauce on it has "bald spots" or areas that are very thin...Hunt's grocery brand of tomato paste has been improved, so I'm wanting to give it another chance. I used it my recipe for taco sauce and surprised me with decent flavor but alittle bit tinny.
Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


 

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