Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough  (Read 27897 times)

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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #320 on: June 16, 2012, 11:59:49 PM »
Peter,
I really enjoyed all the Calvel stuff (which I am familiar with to some extent but still super fun to re-explore and think about)! :) Thanks for sharing all that info with us and taking the time to do so.

Norma,
I wouldn't consider the soaker a super long autolyse because the cummulative changes are more drastic than what is meant to be accomplished with an autolyse. Process wise it does sound/feel like an extension of one though, but just cause it feels that way doesn't mean it is.

All,
I will offer that although I am no expert, I have experimented with and eaten a lot of pizza utilizing different salt levels. My current sweet spot for my dough is 2.7% and I have iterated through 1.5 to 3.5. To some extent the saltiness of toppings matters however for a plain pie I find 2.5 to be ever so slightly undersalted and 3.0 to be pushing it a bit. Consider that Kelly also is above 2.5 and can go 3+. I say this as someone who tends not to like salty foods and they aren't really apart of my culture so I am very sensitive and somewhat averse to high salt levels. I want enough salt to make the dough pop a little but not so much that it tastes obviously salty.

I do realize that most folks with a bread background or pro background would consider 2.7% high but my tests have revealed otherwise.

Jim, Peter,
Are you familiar with "TTA" or total titratable acidity? Apparently it may be at least as important as pH.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_11PREF.PDF
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 12:40:19 AM by johnnydoubleu »


Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #321 on: June 17, 2012, 08:31:04 AM »
John,

Thanks for your thoughts on the soaker and saying the cumulative changes are more drastic than what is meant to be accomplished with an autolyse. 

It is interesting that your current sweet spot for salt is 2.7%.  I have experimented with different salt levels also, but only like higher salt levels in a Neapolitan dough.  I also have tried 3.0% salt, but it was only in a Neapolitan dough. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #322 on: June 17, 2012, 08:32:46 AM »
I mixed the soaker with the Bova 00 flour last evening for another attempt with Bova 00 flour, this time with a soaker.  The Ischia starter was very active when I used it last evening and was fed with Bova 00 flour.  The soaker didn’t feel as strong in gluten strength  as when I use higher protein flours, but the Bova 00 soaker did mix in easily with the remaining flour and water.  The soaker had a nice sweet taste from the short time it had in the fridge. I did add a little extra sea salt to the final dough. The dough ball is being controlled in temperature in my homemade proofing box at about 68 degrees F.  This dough was mixed by hand and it sure didn’t take long to mix.  If all goes well until later today I will attempt to bake it in my BBQ grill set-up.  I used a water temperature of 110.6 degrees F to mix in with the flour and it was well tap water.  After mixing the Bova 00 flour in with the water for the soaker the temperature of the soaker was 97.9 degrees F after mixing.  The soaker was let to sit out for an hour before refrigerating.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #323 on: June 17, 2012, 08:33:32 AM »
Norma
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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #324 on: June 17, 2012, 09:45:35 AM »
Norma,
I just want a properly salted dough regardless of style. It's my dough after all. I'm not much concerned with conforming to style parameters.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #325 on: June 17, 2012, 10:07:30 AM »
Jim, Peter,
Are you familiar with "TTA" or total titratable acidity? Apparently it may be at least as important as pH.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_11PREF.PDF

John,

Thank you very much for the Lallemand article. Lallemand has some very good articles on yeast and they are easy to find since they are often in pdf form and can be quickly found by using the pdf designation as a search term. I did see the Lallemand article you cited but I did not read the pH/TTA piece. But, having it read it now, I can see how the TTA test is a useful one. Apparently, brewers and winemakers use TTA tests also, as I noted when I did a search to see what equipment or test kits exist to conduct a TTA test. An example of a TTA test kit I found, with ten test capacity, is the one at http://www.southernhomebrew.com/tatestkit.html. Professional equipment apparently runs into the hundreds of dollars and sometimes over a thousand dollars.

BTW, for those who do not have pH meters, as does Norma, Tom Lehmann very recently entered a useful post on a low cost alternative, at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19156.msg191743.html#msg191743

John, if you haven't seen it, there is a review of Prof. Calvel's book at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg27207.html#msg27207. I re-read that thread this morning to recall what I had posted on the book earlier. One of the things that jumped out at me was the fact that, as discussed in Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624, Prof. Calvel did use an autolyse process where ingredients like sugar, milk powder and fat (butter or margarine) could be part of the autolysed mixture (along with flour and water). However, as with all of his autolysed doughs, the salt and yeast were excluded, and added later. From my reading elsewhere, others reported that Prof. Calvel might have tolerated the use of a natural levain and maybe even small amounts of commercial yeast if the autolyse rest period was very brief, before the yeast could acidify the dough. However, I did not see anything by Prof. Calvel himself in his writings to that effect. 

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #326 on: June 17, 2012, 10:27:11 AM »
Norma,
I just want a properly salted dough regardless of style. It's my dough after all. I'm not much concerned with conforming to style parameters.

John,

I understand you want a properly salt dough regardless of style.  I know it is your dough and if your current sweet spot is 2.7% that is fine.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #327 on: June 17, 2012, 05:58:27 PM »
The gluten in the “whole enchilada” soaker made with Kyrol flour seems to be losing strength today.  Hopefully it will be okay tomorrow to add the final flour and IDY.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #328 on: June 17, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »
What an adventure in trying to make the soaker dough pizza with the Bova 00 flour and leavened with the Ischia starter. There were a lot of problems.  First I forgot to bring my IR thermometer home from market.  I then couldn’t get the firebricks placed in the top of the pan the same way I did before, so I just slanted some at the back top in the metal pan.  I didn’t have my top metal plate either.  The BBQ grill was heated up for an hour.  I had started getting equipment together and somehow hit my small wooden peel on a post going outside.  Well, that darn thing spit in two, and my other two wooden  peels at home are too big to go into the small opening on my BBQ grill set-up.  :o I then scouted around in my two sheds and did have thin pieces of wood that I could have cut into a peel, but I sure didn’t want to get saws and other stuff out to do that.  I couldn’t find any pieces of wood that might have fit into the small opening.  I found a shipping box in my one shed and decided to use that for the peel.  I got a straight piece of wood and placed duct tape around the wood and part of the shipping box I cut out.  What a heck of a looking peel.  I did do a few practice shots into the BBQ grill without the pizza and thought maybe this will work, as long as I didn’t hit the underneath piece of wood that was sticking out on the firebricks. Then for some reason the dough wanted to be too sticky when coming out of the plastic container so the pie wasn’t exactly round and wanted to stick to the surface of my bigger wooden peel I was opening it on.  Finally I got that straightened out.  I had put some apple chips on the back of the firebricks to simulate a real WFO.  I had left a little space between the firebricks and the back firebrick so the chips would ignite.  The pizza did launch off of the makeshift peel okay.  The bottom started to want to get too brown a little before the pizza was finished and I just put the pizza on a cake pan and finished baking.  I turned the pizza with a BBQ metal spatula.  It can be seen in the first picture how big the other smallest peel I had at home was.  At least the final pizza did taste very good in the crust and had oven spring.  What a way to make pizza. Now time for a glass of wine.   :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #329 on: June 17, 2012, 08:11:57 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #330 on: June 17, 2012, 08:13:32 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #331 on: June 17, 2012, 08:14:46 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #332 on: June 17, 2012, 08:16:04 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #333 on: June 17, 2012, 08:18:47 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #334 on: June 17, 2012, 08:20:04 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #335 on: June 17, 2012, 08:21:33 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #336 on: June 17, 2012, 08:23:35 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #337 on: June 17, 2012, 08:26:18 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #338 on: June 18, 2012, 08:47:54 AM »
The soaker final dough was mixed this morning, using the GM Full Strength flour.  The final dough does feel to me more than 62% hydration.  The final dough when it came out of the mixer looked smooth, but when balling becomes rougher looking.  I didn’t think about it before, but using the soaker right out of the fridge for the final dough does lower the final dough temperature some.  The final dough was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer on speed 1.  This experiment did use a lower water temperature for the soaker.

Picture of what the soaker looked like in gluten strength before it was incorporated into the final dough and picture of GM Full Strength soaker dough ball.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #339 on: June 18, 2012, 08:49:52 AM »
The “whole enchilada” final dough was mixed this morning with the addition of 131.84 grams of Kyrol flour and 1.73 grams of IDY.  The strength of the “whole enchilada” soaker didn’t look like it lost much, if any, strength in gluten since yesterday, but it did lose some strength since Friday when it was mixed.  This final dough also felt sticker than 62% hydration.  This final dough temperature was colder because of the “whole enchilada” soaker weighed more.  This dough also looked smooth after mixing in the Kitchen Aid mixer, but became rougher while trying to ball the dough.  I also used a lower water temperature for the soaker in this experiment.  

Picture of the “whole enchilada” soaker and picture of dough ball.

Norma
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