Author Topic: Norma's epoxy dough  (Read 34830 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #325 on: June 17, 2012, 10:07:30 AM »
Jim, Peter,
Are you familiar with "TTA" or total titratable acidity? Apparently it may be at least as important as pH.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_11PREF.PDF

John,

Thank you very much for the Lallemand article. Lallemand has some very good articles on yeast and they are easy to find since they are often in pdf form and can be quickly found by using the pdf designation as a search term. I did see the Lallemand article you cited but I did not read the pH/TTA piece. But, having it read it now, I can see how the TTA test is a useful one. Apparently, brewers and winemakers use TTA tests also, as I noted when I did a search to see what equipment or test kits exist to conduct a TTA test. An example of a TTA test kit I found, with ten test capacity, is the one at http://www.southernhomebrew.com/tatestkit.html. Professional equipment apparently runs into the hundreds of dollars and sometimes over a thousand dollars.

BTW, for those who do not have pH meters, as does Norma, Tom Lehmann very recently entered a useful post on a low cost alternative, at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19156.msg191743.html#msg191743

John, if you haven't seen it, there is a review of Prof. Calvel's book at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg27207.html#msg27207. I re-read that thread this morning to recall what I had posted on the book earlier. One of the things that jumped out at me was the fact that, as discussed in Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg74624.html#msg74624, Prof. Calvel did use an autolyse process where ingredients like sugar, milk powder and fat (butter or margarine) could be part of the autolysed mixture (along with flour and water). However, as with all of his autolysed doughs, the salt and yeast were excluded, and added later. From my reading elsewhere, others reported that Prof. Calvel might have tolerated the use of a natural levain and maybe even small amounts of commercial yeast if the autolyse rest period was very brief, before the yeast could acidify the dough. However, I did not see anything by Prof. Calvel himself in his writings to that effect. 

Peter


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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #326 on: June 17, 2012, 10:27:11 AM »
Norma,
I just want a properly salted dough regardless of style. It's my dough after all. I'm not much concerned with conforming to style parameters.

John,

I understand you want a properly salt dough regardless of style.  I know it is your dough and if your current sweet spot is 2.7% that is fine.

Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #327 on: June 17, 2012, 05:58:27 PM »
The gluten in the “whole enchilada” soaker made with Kyrol flour seems to be losing strength today.  Hopefully it will be okay tomorrow to add the final flour and IDY.

Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #328 on: June 17, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »
What an adventure in trying to make the soaker dough pizza with the Bova 00 flour and leavened with the Ischia starter. There were a lot of problems.  First I forgot to bring my IR thermometer home from market.  I then couldn’t get the firebricks placed in the top of the pan the same way I did before, so I just slanted some at the back top in the metal pan.  I didn’t have my top metal plate either.  The BBQ grill was heated up for an hour.  I had started getting equipment together and somehow hit my small wooden peel on a post going outside.  Well, that darn thing spit in two, and my other two wooden  peels at home are too big to go into the small opening on my BBQ grill set-up.  :o I then scouted around in my two sheds and did have thin pieces of wood that I could have cut into a peel, but I sure didn’t want to get saws and other stuff out to do that.  I couldn’t find any pieces of wood that might have fit into the small opening.  I found a shipping box in my one shed and decided to use that for the peel.  I got a straight piece of wood and placed duct tape around the wood and part of the shipping box I cut out.  What a heck of a looking peel.  I did do a few practice shots into the BBQ grill without the pizza and thought maybe this will work, as long as I didn’t hit the underneath piece of wood that was sticking out on the firebricks. Then for some reason the dough wanted to be too sticky when coming out of the plastic container so the pie wasn’t exactly round and wanted to stick to the surface of my bigger wooden peel I was opening it on.  Finally I got that straightened out.  I had put some apple chips on the back of the firebricks to simulate a real WFO.  I had left a little space between the firebricks and the back firebrick so the chips would ignite.  The pizza did launch off of the makeshift peel okay.  The bottom started to want to get too brown a little before the pizza was finished and I just put the pizza on a cake pan and finished baking.  I turned the pizza with a BBQ metal spatula.  It can be seen in the first picture how big the other smallest peel I had at home was.  At least the final pizza did taste very good in the crust and had oven spring.  What a way to make pizza. Now time for a glass of wine.   :-D

Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #329 on: June 17, 2012, 08:11:57 PM »
Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #330 on: June 17, 2012, 08:13:32 PM »
Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #331 on: June 17, 2012, 08:14:46 PM »
Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #332 on: June 17, 2012, 08:16:04 PM »
Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #333 on: June 17, 2012, 08:18:47 PM »
Norma


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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #334 on: June 17, 2012, 08:20:04 PM »
Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #335 on: June 17, 2012, 08:21:33 PM »
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #336 on: June 17, 2012, 08:23:35 PM »
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #337 on: June 17, 2012, 08:26:18 PM »
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #338 on: June 18, 2012, 08:47:54 AM »
The soaker final dough was mixed this morning, using the GM Full Strength flour.  The final dough does feel to me more than 62% hydration.  The final dough when it came out of the mixer looked smooth, but when balling becomes rougher looking.  I didn’t think about it before, but using the soaker right out of the fridge for the final dough does lower the final dough temperature some.  The final dough was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer on speed 1.  This experiment did use a lower water temperature for the soaker.

Picture of what the soaker looked like in gluten strength before it was incorporated into the final dough and picture of GM Full Strength soaker dough ball.

Norma

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #339 on: June 18, 2012, 08:49:52 AM »
The “whole enchilada” final dough was mixed this morning with the addition of 131.84 grams of Kyrol flour and 1.73 grams of IDY.  The strength of the “whole enchilada” soaker didn’t look like it lost much, if any, strength in gluten since yesterday, but it did lose some strength since Friday when it was mixed.  This final dough also felt sticker than 62% hydration.  This final dough temperature was colder because of the “whole enchilada” soaker weighed more.  This dough also looked smooth after mixing in the Kitchen Aid mixer, but became rougher while trying to ball the dough.  I also used a lower water temperature for the soaker in this experiment.  

Picture of the “whole enchilada” soaker and picture of dough ball.

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #340 on: June 19, 2012, 09:57:06 AM »
Yesterday I mixed up the final soaker doughs by hand and made several observations along the way. The 75% soaker was a difficult dough to mix up. For the most part, I had to shear and tear at the dough with my hand to incorporate the flour into the dough and homogenize the mixture. After a thirty minute autolyse, there were still small clusters of under hydrated flour in the dough mixture. I kneaded the dough by hand at this point for roughly two-to three minutes to redistribute the flour which seemingly amended the problem. The final dough felt very tacky. The 62.5% and 50% soaker doughs mixed up very similar to each other, with no major problems. The final dough temp of the three dough balls averaged 75.4F at which point the doughs were refrigerated.

This morning, after about 15h in the fridge at 42F, there was  little indication of any leavening in the doughs, similar to what Norma had previously observed.  This was a first for me. Typically, I bulk ferment my doughs and divide 3h before baking, but since these were individuals dough balls, I am wondering if they got too cold, too quickly. I felt all the doughs and the 75% soaker dough was extremely tacky still. In fact if felt very similar to my high hydration pizzarium doughs. The other two doughs felt about the same, tacky but not nearly as tacky as the 75% dough and all the dough balls had a good amount of strength too them. I decided to take the doughs out of the fridge and begin letting them rise for a few hours before I bake this noon hour.

Jim
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #341 on: June 19, 2012, 06:52:40 PM »
 I was not particular happy with my pizza results this week. Nothing seemed to go right and it felt like amateur hour from start to stop. The dough was under proofed out of the fridge, all the doughs felt heavy, dense and the flavor was not exactly up to par with the previous weeks doughs. Additionally, the dough balls grew at most 10% by volume overnight and sat at room temp (78F) for 5 hours before the doughs completely double. Indeed, intuition told me to stop and let the doughs go an extra day or two in the fridge until they double, however it is supposed to be in the 100s the rest of the week. So today it was now or never.

 First up was the 75% soaker dough, which is topped in the photo with sauce, mozz and basil. Out of the container, this dough ball was very tacky and viscous, yet had good strength to it; it was kind of like handling one of my pizzarium doughs. While it took a good deal of bench flour to tame this dough, I had no problems opening up the dough.   Out of the oven, while the yeast did their job in leavening the dough, the crust was still a little dense and tougher than usual. The flavor of the crust good, but still not quite as good as previous bakes with this method. The crust through and through never full browned quite as liked either and was a little anemic.

The second dough baked was the 50% soaker dough, pictured as the artichoke, bacon and mozz / young pecorino pie, and the last dough baked was the 62.5% soaker (toppings include sausage, mushroom, mozz and parsley). The 62.5% and 50% doughs were very similar to each other in all aspects and to the 75% dough in taste and texture. The dough was easy to open and felt similar to previous attempts, a little tacky but manageable. Post bake, the crust for both doughs were a little too dense for me and both pies tasted good, but as mentioned, not like previous bakes. I left both doughs in the oven a little bit longer than the 75% dough to develop a little more browning in the crust, but it ended up drying out the crust a too much. The crumb was moist (and the tastiest part of this dough) but that was about the only redeeming quality this week.

Given this weeks failure, I am wondering if I want to rerun the experiment. However, given the many problems I met with the 75% soaker, I may skip that dough and create a 65% dough instead of the 75% and 62.5% doughs. In addition, I think may go back to bulk fermenting the doughs overnight, as I got better results in the short-term with that storage method. I can always make garlic knots or bread out of the spare doughs if needed.

Jim
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:39:19 PM by JimmyG »
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #342 on: June 19, 2012, 06:54:30 PM »
62.5% Soaker dough

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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #343 on: June 19, 2012, 06:56:00 PM »
50% Soaker
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #344 on: June 19, 2012, 07:55:38 PM »
Norma,
Despite some of the logistical problems, your grilled pizza looks great. I may have missed it, but what was your formula, was it the same as the one used in Steve's oven?

It will be interesting to hear how your dough turns out today without the heated water in the soaker. Good luck.

Jim
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #345 on: June 19, 2012, 08:04:05 PM »
John,
I am familiar with titratible acidity. We use it in nutrition and health related fields for testing type 1 diabetics, children with sever malnourishment for the presence of ketone bodies and other acid-base balance disturbances in metabolism. I never have heard of this principle being applied to bread, but I guess it makes sense in this situation and its application is just as relevant.

Jim
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #346 on: June 19, 2012, 08:18:27 PM »
"Epoxy" just doesn't sound right.  It makes me think of sweet smelling chemicals that are had to clean off of your hands.  Epoxy is not a general term like "cement" that can be anything used to stick things together, it connotes a specific type of chemical reaction as an adjective and means the act of cementing something together as a verb.  Why that choice of word?

The pizzas look great, mind you, but my inner nose has them smelling like, well, plastic.

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #347 on: June 19, 2012, 09:48:34 PM »
Tom,
First let me say, I hate this name as well.  >:( >:( >:( >:(   I guess the name came about at the time for a lack of a better descriptive term. Peter Reinhart did something vaguely similar, with what he termed as an epoxy dough and somehow this name just stuck with us. At present, we have gone well beyond what Reinhart did with his dough, and in fact, just omitted a main component , the preferment, b/c we found it did not add much flavor to the final dough. In some ways, what Norma and I are doing at present is creating more of a mash, like they using in beer brewing. However, I agree, we certainly need a different name.
Jim
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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #348 on: June 19, 2012, 10:01:25 PM »
Jim,

Your observations with all of your experiments are interesting.  Sorry you had difficulties also.  Thanks for explaining what kind of results you had.  I wonder why the hydration always feels higher than it really is and also why the dough balls are so easy to open.  All of your pizzas look excellent even though you had problems.  ;D  Do you really think you need to do any of these experiments again since your results with using 50% soaker produced better results? 

The formulation I used with the Bova 00 soaker was at Reply 242 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg190846.html#msg190846 and then was baked in my BBQ grill.

I don’t know what you want to call this method since we dropped the preferment (except for the Neapolitan pizzas). but I talked to Steve today and he also thought what we are doing is something like a mash in beer brewing. 

I will post tomorrow on how my bakes went today, but they were interesting.  I would post tonight, but have to resize my pictures and my mind isn't fully awake from the heat today.  :-D 

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Norma's epoxy dough
« Reply #349 on: June 19, 2012, 10:24:05 PM »
Quote
Thanks for explaining what kind of results you had.  I wonder why the hydration always feels higher than it really is and also why the dough balls are so easy to open.
Norma,
From what I have read, and mind you I still need to go back and reread some of this literature, supposedly the starch granules will swell and become larger with the addition of heat and will thereby absorb more water in the process. This also appears to be true in the absence salt, as it too can inhibit the amount water starch can absorb. So in essence, the starches in the soaker, with the higher water temp, are comparable to a large bloated balloons full of water gliding past each other. I am guessing this is why our dough is tacky, the crumb is moist and it is easier to open up the dough, but don't hold me to this.

I am looking forward to hearing about how things fared at market, if we can drop the water temp from the formula and what your tasters thought of the pies.
Jim
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