Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 89189 times)

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Offline Trestrey

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 12:42:32 PM »
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim

It will not adversely affect your final product.

John

Offline Trestrey

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 03:35:07 PM »
Thanks for the reply John.  I appreciate it.  I am in Cambridge, MA, by the way.  I know Natick fairly well. 

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 03:41:18 PM »
Yes, tenderness and ease of opening.

Craig, I have not looked at your most recent workflow recently, but at home I have been using a 24/24 hr regimen for a while. The pizza stand at the market used a 24/14 regimen.

I had a recent and humbling experience.

Have been so used to forming my own dough (it partically opens itself) that I didn't realize I was making a "lazy man's" dough that anyone could form into a skin.

Recently I had the need to try and form skins from refrigerated dough.  Nothing wrong with the dough, but it was a *totally* different experience than what I had grown accustomed to. I struggled to open the dough balls into a 12" ball and after a few tries was really slapped in the face with my lack of skill. Wow.

An eye opener.....I feel a good pizza maker should be able to reasonably open and shape almost any type of doughball (assuming it isn't defective) into the required diameter. Not this donkey! --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2013, 02:07:04 PM »
I created a model to predict starter quantity/time/fermentation temperature combinations that could be used to adapt this formula to different situations and timing requirements.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline DavePZ

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 02:42:28 PM »
Anyone -
I want to try sourdough, but am a bit confused with some of the terminology...
What is the difference between a Starter and a Culture?
My real question is....I have started a sourdough culture, by buying one of those dormant cultures online....and have fed it for a few days, and it is going well. But when the recipe at the top of this thread says 1.3% (which is equivalent to about a tsp), do I just take one tsp out of my jar of starter?
The reason this sounds weird, is that when I look at recipies for sourdough online, most of them call for 1/2-1 cup of starter.

Want to make sure I am interpreting everything correctly.

Thanks!!!!!
Dave

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2013, 02:57:24 PM »
Hi Dave - they are one in the same, and yes, you use a small amount in this recipe. But the starter must be active when used. You feed it once, maybe twice, and it doubles. Then you use it in the recipe.

The amount of starter is subject to the amount of time you are fermenting the dough. The recipes you see online are probably for short time periods, like a few hours, and require a much larger percentage of starter.

John

Offline DavePZ

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2013, 04:44:05 PM »
Thanks John! That makes perfect sense.
I am going to be trying my new "pizza oven adapter" on my weber gas grill this week, and am very hopeful...

Cheers!
Dave

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2013, 04:54:10 PM »
Dave, the amount of starter is, as John noted, a function of temperature and time. This post will give you some guidance on adapting the recipe to your time and temperature windows: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864

Keep in mind that this table is designed to give you an idea when the dough will be ready to bake. You may have to experiment a little given your specific culture and recipe - particularly if you go outside of the green zone. Also, "dough ready to bake" doesn't mean "dough tastes the same." Fermentation temperature is one of the variables that can and will influence the flavor of your dough. My experience is that dough fermented in the 60-65F range develops the best flavor.

Craig
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline DavePZ

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2013, 06:38:40 PM »
Fantastic Study Craig!....and it has sparked a question...

Letís say we have made a batch of dough. Separated into two different, equally sized dough balls initially.
Then we throw one in the fridge at 50F, and let the other sit out at 70F.

Now, we know that the bacteria will ferment slower or faster based on the temperature. And letís say for arguments sake, that the dough at 70F will ferment twice as fast as the dough at 50F.

After 10 hours, I take the dough ball out of the fridge, and place in a box that is maintained at 80F.

Letís say for arguments sake, that the bacteria will ferment 1.5 times as fast at 80F than at 70F.

We wait another 10 hours.

SO now, both dough balls have seen equal amounts of "bacteria work time". One was going at say 10 Miles per hour for 20 hours (or 200 miles of bacteria work time), and the second was at 5 miles per hour for 10 hours (50 miles), and then 15 mph for 10 hours.(plus 150), for a total of 200 miles of bacteria work time)

My question is, will there be any difference in the finished dough? The real question here, is does the rate of fermentation affect the final result of the fermentation? If it ultimately gets to the same place in terms of total work that the bacteria does?

Thoughts?

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2013, 08:42:02 PM »
Dave, Yes, there will be meaningful differences even if the balls appear identical in terms of signs of fermentation. SD (dourdough) is a symbiotic culture of both yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). Both contribute to the work of fermentation Ė there is both yeast and lactic acid fermentation happening. Both produce CO2 which causes the dough to rise, but there is a lot of other stuff going on, and that stuff varies with temperature.

This is horribly oversimplified, but generally speaking, the biochemical processes are different at different temperatures. There are changes in the relationship between the yeast and LAB and their respective metabolisms resulting from differences in the activity level of the respective flora and changes in enzyme activity that affect the sugars present and the competition for those sugars.

Flavor varies with temperature because the acids and other byproducts of fermentation change with temperature. For example, cooler temps favor acetic acid production while warmer temperatures favor lactic acid production. There are dozens of alcohols other than ethanol produced in addition to many aldehydes and other compounds. The ratio of these compounds is also affected by temperature.

I, along with others here, have generally found that the best flavor is typically developed at temperatures around 60-65F.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline DavePZ

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2013, 09:08:52 PM »
Thanks! Wow, this stuff is so fascinating.
I appreciate the explanation. Makes sense.
Dave

Offline Rick M

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M
It was love at first Slice!

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2013, 12:02:39 PM »
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M

Yes, I think that sounds good. Keep an eye on it during the last 9 hours. You might need to warm it up or cool it down some if things are not progressing as expected.

It can take a new starter a few weeks or months to settle in and get predictable.

CL
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Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sdarrow

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2013, 12:17:32 PM »
Hi Craig or others. I am following Craig's directions and did first 24hr in bulk at 65 degrees and balled them last night and kept at 65 degrees. Have not seen any rise so I moved them into oven with light on (about75 degrees). This is my first SD try and not sure it the balls should rise to the same extent as standard dough with yeast. How much rise should I expect?

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2013, 05:05:02 PM »
Hi Craig or others. I am following Craig's directions and did first 24hr in bulk at 65 degrees and balled them last night and kept at 65 degrees. Have not seen any rise so I moved them into oven with light on (about75 degrees). This is my first SD try and not sure it the balls should rise to the same extent as standard dough with yeast. How much rise should I expect?

Yes, they should double or so and will look about the same an dough leavened with commercial yeast.

What culture are you using? How do you activate it before use? How did you measure it? What is the size of your batch?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sdarrow

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2013, 07:42:24 PM »
Hi Craig,

Thank you for the response. I am using sourdo Italian culture. Activated it per their instructions but it is fairly new, only about 3 weeks old. I did make sure it was active before I used it. Per the calculator, only used 1.3% preferment. Used KA bread flour in the culture but Caputo in the dough. I am trying another experiment, took the majority of the dough and added about 8 oz of starter (trying to do 4 hr ferment based on the one chart I saw) and incorporated it into the dough. Will not make a real pie with it but going to cook the dough just to see how it turns out. Will compare against the original and see what happens. That said, not expecting anything due to the lack of activity in the dough. I can only assume the culture was not mature enough/predictable enough.


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2013, 08:59:33 PM »
Be patient. As long as you're sure the starter was active you're fine!

Post an upshot pic of the bottom of the dough container so that he/we can comment further! :chef:

John K
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Offline sdarrow

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2013, 11:01:49 PM »
Thanks John,

I will do so on my next attempt as it is already gone. It did develop some air pockets on the bottom. I did cook some dough and it did taste like sour dough, just did not rise. I Will not give up!

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2013, 11:37:33 PM »
Arrow,

Give your next batch more time and you will be rewarded with a beautiful surprise. My personal "discovery/aha moment" occured about 18-24 hours after making my first batch of camaldoli-based dough. The results of the 8 pies I cooked were "meh". But unbeknownst to me, my wife had unintentionally hidden two stray balls inside (where the temp was about 78 degrees). I Found them the next day.

Needless to say, at some point during those 18-24 hours the yeast (and dough) had "come alive", and formed the types of balls that I had been hoping for.  So now I always plan a little extra time if I'm using starter in my dough. You can always arrest the process by throwing the balls in a cold fridge, if they become "ready" before the guests arrive. 

John K

I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline adm

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2013, 11:52:07 AM »
Well....after reading through this all, MANY THANKS for the extremely detailed description.

I am going to attempt to follow your dough workflow (more or less) for Pizza on Saturday, so have just made up a batch of dough for 8 250g dough balls using your exact specification. I don't have the Ischia culture, but I do have my own sourdough culture that works well for bread baking.

Where I deviated was in the dough mixing. I just took delivery of a brand new DLX mixer today and wanted to play with that puppy rather than do the stretch and folds by hand. Bottom line was the dough came out looking and feeling baby bottom smooth so hopefully it will be OK. Might be a recipe for disaster though as I could have overmixed it. Only time will tell.

Anyway. The dough is in bulk at 65C in a temperature controlled freidge that I normally use for beer making. Before this I have used much higher amounts of starter and cold ferment so I am interested to see how this works.

Onwards and Upwards!

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2013, 04:09:56 AM »
Hi Craig,
 
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but what is the benefit/tradeoff of doing a bulk ferment followed by a balled ferment vs. balled ferment alone for the same time period?

The closets environment I have for fermentation is 58F in my wine fridge. Any issues you see using it?

Thanks,
-James

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2013, 07:56:58 AM »
Hi Craig,
 
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but what is the benefit/tradeoff of doing a bulk ferment followed by a balled ferment vs. balled ferment alone for the same time period?

The closets environment I have for fermentation is 58F in my wine fridge. Any issues you see using it?


Operationally speaking, bulk dough takes up less room than balled. Restaurants may not have the space to have multiple days dough in balls. Functionally, the longer your dough is in balls, the slacker it is going to be when you open it, AOTBE. There will be textural differences in the baked product that result from the time (if any) in balls and the time in bulk.

58F will work, it may affect the flavor produced by your culture which may be positive, negative, or unnoticeable. You will probably need to increase the culture amount from what I use. Here is a place to start from: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline rrweather

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2013, 03:04:54 PM »
What do people typically use for their waste calculations? I am going to make a batch of dough tomorrow and want to try using the calculator Craig posted a link to. Not sure what I should plan on losing to waste. Thanks,

Randy

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2013, 03:19:27 PM »
I use 1%, but you might want to use 2% if you don't have a lot of experience.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage