Author Topic: Re: Pizza Town Clone  (Read 12462 times)

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Offline jason83

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Re: Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2012, 06:22:10 PM »
Hey Chau,

Great looking pies!!  I'm curious-do you prefer cake yeast over other types when making NY style pizzas?  And do you find that using lard in the crust makes a better crust than oil?  I appreciate it!

Jason


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2012, 08:55:01 PM »
Thanks Bob1.  Would love to see pics of your pies sometime.   One of the best things about my pies now is that they reheat so very well.  I would say about as good as fresh and in their own way better.  Hard to describe, but I love reheated slices.  Not just reheating any pizza as my past effots were never this good.  But the bottom crust is absolutely crispy, yet tender and very light.  It's a beautiful thing.

Hey Chau,

Great looking pies!!  I'm curious-do you prefer cake yeast over other types when making NY style pizzas?  And do you find that using lard in the crust makes a better crust than oil?  I appreciate it!

Jason

Thanks Jason.   Of course all the different types of yeast work.  For NY style, I mostly work with IDY, CY, and a SD starter occassionally.  The absolute best results will probably come from a properly maintained and used starter with probably the most inconsistent results.   For me, when the stars line up the starter pies are great.  Awesome texture and flavor, but it's not all the time.  I've almost given up on starters, except for making some types of bread.  Starters are notoriously difficult to get right.  You won't notice this until you've work with a particular starter using the same recipe and technique for awhile.  Most folks that jump into starters and make a passable pie, will be happy.  But when you can get starters to really sing, it's hard to match.  But I suspect probably only a handful of ppl here are able to do it consistently.  

For NY pies though, I really love to use CY over IDY.  I can get consistently great results using either, but if I had a choice, my choice is CY.  And I can't pinpoint the major differences between CY and IDY other than CY gives a better lift.  It's not really the flavor although a dough made with CY will smell better.  But fresh CY is hard to beat for me.  The differences are probably not that dramatic to most ppl, but for me when I have time to go get a block, I don't hesitate.  Currently it's my favorite form of yeast for any style of pizza and getting consistent results.  I am getting lazy and starters are becoming too much work for me.

But looking at the big picture, there are so many other factors to worry about getting right before CY will make a meaningful difference over IDY or ADY.   I wouldn't worry about sourcing CY or using it unless you could easily get it from a nearby bakery.  Probably not worth the drive across town unless you have your recipe dialed in, if that makes sense.  

I have chosen to not be vocal about my use of shortening until recently.  NY style pies can be made with and without oil.   But if you are going to use oil in the dough, shortening is unequivocally the way to go.  I don't care much for tradition or who says what.  I absolutely know what my senses tell me and I trust senses far more than any expert out there.  From the tests that I have done, shortening beats oil by far.  It's not even close for me.  And I can promise you my recipes and techniques are consistent.  Meaning the only difference is the oil or shortening.  Test after test, the shortening wins.

But it may come down to preferrence in texture and taste rather than one being better than the other.  For me, I prefer shortening over oil.  If I don't have shortening, I will make a trip to the store rather than use oil instead.  So for me, it's much more important than CY vs IDY.

Chau
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 09:11:06 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2012, 09:33:35 PM »


I have chosen to not be vocal about my use of shortening until recently.  NY style pies can be made with and without oil.   But if you are going to use oil in the dough, shortening is unequivocally the way to go.  I don't care much for tradition or who says what.  I absolutely know what my senses tell me and I trust senses far more than any expert out there.  From the tests that I have done, shortening beats oil by far.  It's not even close for me.  And I can promise you my recipes and techniques are consistent.  Meaning the only difference is the oil or shortening.  Test after test, the shortening wins.

But it may come down to preferrence in texture and taste rather than one being better than the other.  For me, I prefer shortening over oil.  

Chau


Chau,

It is interesting that you prefer shortening over oil for NY style pies after doing the experiments.  I havenít really done that many experiments with shortening, but might do a few after your post.  What brand of shortening do you use?   Is there any particular amount in percents that you like?

Thanks!  :)

Norma

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2012, 10:44:57 PM »
Norma,
I also prefer the shortening, but it is totally different than oil.  It starts to give the dough more of a hard bread stick quality depending on the amount.  I thought you were pursuing that with your M&M pies, but I did not follow the thread that much.  I have a couple places near me that use it.  It is interesting but it seems that the places I see using shortening started in the 50's.  I wonder if there is a connection?  What sparked it and why?  For the M&M I would start with 1% and move up 2% but not more than that.  Personally I do not think the brand matters that much,  I used Crisco and it worked fine, but then again I did not try others.  I do have a yen to try Craig's brand.
http://www.conagrafoodservice.com/ProductDetail.do;jsessionid=33758431EC0708E4DE08D2E6B1E31816?productUpc=2700073651

Chau,
I do not bake as much anymore because of the calories.  This leaves my experiment to a couple of times a month.  I am also busy trying to get my WFO done.  I am mainly working on a specialty pie with a specialty sauce that is different from the norm.  My use of shortening is for a different effect that the PT pie has, but I found it interesting and enjoyable in the NY style.  I will try to start posting pictures again, it has been a while.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2012, 11:20:44 PM »
Norma I agree with Bob1 on all his points.   It does not matter what type or brand of shortening.  Currently, I am using a generic brand called "Shopper's Value".   I personally like to use 2%, but have use 1% - 4%.  The increasing amounts of shortening behaves just like oil in that it makes the  crumb increasing tender, the more you use. 

The amount used will be dictated by texture preference and the type of flour used.  If I am using a 12-13% protein flour I will typically use 2% shortening.  If I am using a flour that is 14%+ protein, I like to use 3% shortening. 

It is added melted and after 1 min or so of mixing. 

Bob, I agree.   Shortening, at least for me, does give a completely different texture compared to using oil.  The way I would describe it is that it gives the dough a drier crumb effect compared to oil.  Where oil gives a soft moist or even wet effect, shortening gives a more dry but yet tender crumb effect.   I prefer the shortening crumb hands down.   Bob1, exciting to hear that you are trying to get your wfo done.  Please post pics of the oven and pies when you finish and have time. 

Bob1, I don't know if Pizza Town uses oil or shortening in their dough.  I started this thread wanting to duplicate their pizza but along the way, I realized that it was the crunchy crispy effect in the crust that I wanted to duplicate.  By using shortening and reheats, I was able to capture that effect quite well.  It may very well be that they use oil in their dough, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out it's shortening.  The texture of my crust is now very very similar to pizza town's reheated slices. 

Chau

Offline jason83

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Re: Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2012, 11:23:23 PM »
Thanks Chau.  I appreciate your quick reply.  I will experiment with the shortening and let everyone know what I find/think.  I've only used IDY and your point makes sense.  But hopefully I can get my hands on some CY and try it out.

Jason

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2012, 06:51:00 AM »
Bob and Chau,

It is on the boardwalk thread that I am interested in trying shortening in the dough.  Someone on that thread did post that shortening is used in the Mackís dough.  I did try shortening one time, but must not have used the right amount or mixed it wrong.  I am using Kyrol flour on that thread, which is a bleached and bromated flour.  Mackís did start back in the 50ís and is in NJ also.  Their bottom crust isnít crunchy, but is a little crisp.

Thanks to both of you for helping me understand how much shortening to add and what to expect.

Bob, Thanks for the link to the kind of oil Craig likes.  I did request a sample.  I wonder what kind of shortening was used back in the 50ís at pizzerias.

Norma 

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2012, 11:54:06 AM »
Hey all you pizza town lovers!
Just reporting another data point here...ordered a pie last night (1.5 toppings) and bake time was 5 minutes almost on the dot. This is of course consistent with what we know already, but since I usually just order slices, I took out the stopwatch so we could all gain a little from the pie I enjoyed.

Sean

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2012, 02:03:46 PM »
PizzaSean,  Thanks for the bake data.  What a pizza place!  One of the finest, if not the finest, NY pizza shops around.  I gotta get out there soon - last visit was phenomenal.  Thinking of slicing my cheese like they do ( I know Scott123 cautions me!).  It seems more convenient than hand grating.  Having 11 of my daughters teenage friends over for a pizza party Saturday afternoon.  The steel will be hot and the pizzas fllying out of the oven!   Mark


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2012, 06:25:05 PM »
Sounds fun! Ill be doing the same for my brother's birthday this weekend! I may give their cheese style a chance this time around too, just as an experiment! What are the cautions?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2012, 12:35:39 AM »
  I wonder what kind of shortening was used back in the 50ís at pizzerias.

Norma 
pork lard?
We used it commercially in the early 70's....
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scott123

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2012, 03:29:40 AM »
Hey all you pizza town lovers!
Just reporting another data point here...ordered a pie last night (1.5 toppings) and bake time was 5 minutes almost on the dot. This is of course consistent with what we know already, but since I usually just order slices, I took out the stopwatch so we could all gain a little from the pie I enjoyed.

Great reconnaissance, Sean. The more data points, the better. Was this Bruce (thinning hair, no moustache) or Michele?

scott123

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2012, 03:42:41 AM »
Thinking of slicing my cheese like they do ( I know Scott123 cautions me!).

Mark, Grande/Grande clones have superior meltability, so, if you're using Grande, then it might be more forgiving of slices, but I think the most critical aspect of this approach is that the slices are as thin as potato chips. At the moment, I can't think of any home equipment that will achieve this.  A food processor definitely won't, nor will a box grater. If you have access to a commercial meat slicer, then that would give you the necessary thickness- the square slices you get from using a grande loaf and a meat slicer work well.

Whatever you end up with, make sure to test it side by side with grated mozzarella. Make sure to bubble/brown the two pies as equally as possible and compare the taste and appearance between the two.

Sean, the larger the piece of cheese, the longer it takes to melt.  Grated cheese melts far more easily than sliced.  Sliced cheese, because of it's melting impairment, will have a greater tendency to brown rather than bubble, oil off less, and produce an end result that's less buttery and flavorful.

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2012, 09:04:40 AM »
Mark, Grande/Grande clones have superior meltability, so, if you're using Grande, then it might be more forgiving of slices, but I think the most critical aspect of this approach is that the slices are as thin as potato chips.  If you have access to a commercial meat slicer, then that would give you the necessary thickness- the square slices you get from using a grande loaf and a meat slicer work well.

 
Thanks for the advice Scott!  I am looking for a reasonable commercial meat slicer - any experience out there with good models?  I am looking at one for about 130 bucks.  I think it is a chef's choice.  Mark

scott123

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2012, 10:45:45 AM »
Mark, the way I understand meat slicers is that you get what you pay for.  The $130ish slicers on Amazon get half decent reviews, but I don't trust them.  It won't be $130, but if you buy a slicer, I'd get a used commercial unit.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2012, 02:04:10 PM »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline communist

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2012, 03:23:09 PM »
How about partially frozen and sliced on a mandolin?
  Yes, Bob, a good idea, and I have sliced the mozzarella using a V cutter mandoline.  It is a bit cumbersome, a bit dangerous, and laborious.  It does work, but I need something better.  I did pick up a microplane cheese slicer, but it is just OK.  The handle came loose even though I got the "commerical" stainless steel model.   In the past I have partially frozen my mozzarella for use in the Cuisinart cheese grater, but I am concerned that freezing the cheese may make it water out and change the meltability.  Any thoughts on that?  Thanks Mark


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2012, 03:40:26 PM »
  Yes, Bob, a good idea, and I have sliced the mozzarella using a V cutter mandoline.  It is a bit cumbersome, a bit dangerous, and laborious.  It does work, but I need something better.  I did pick up a microplane cheese slicer, but it is just OK.  The handle came loose even though I got the "commerical" stainless steel model.   In the past I have partially frozen my mozzarella for use in the Cuisinart cheese grater, but I am concerned that freezing the cheese may make it water out and change the meltability.  Any thoughts on that?  Thanks Mark
Hey Mark,
Well first of all you're not going to be putting a hard freeze on the cheese so I don't see any concern for water problems. Actually, I usually only buy in bulk and I've never had problems with freezing....that includes Grande, both shredded and block.
Here is a link to a $40 slicer that has worked unbelievably well for me and I have seen them in retail stores also. Now it's not something that will hold up to everyday use prolly but this stupid 'lil plastic(steel searated blade)slicer has served me well for about 5 yrs. now.....I can shave roast beef thinner than Arby's on that dude!  8)
Bob

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Adjustable-Compact-Slicer-Fence/dp/B006ZB9GQW/?tag=pizzamaking-20
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2012, 04:52:34 PM »
How about partially frozen and sliced on a mandolin?
http://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Mandoline-Slicer/dp/B0000DAQ8B/?tag=pizzamaking-20

That's what I use Bob.  Works for me.  I cut the block up into manageable pieces.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Pizza Town Clone
« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2012, 05:36:08 PM »
Scott -

This was Michele.

First time I ever got pepperoni there - interesting chunks/slices style they have! Quite tasty also...reminded me a lot of the rosa grande I usually use.