Author Topic: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?  (Read 5746 times)

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Offline La Sera

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 10:15:17 AM »
I think it's a risky idea for the following reasons:

1. People develop their tastes of what they consider to be "normal" and "good" very early in life. Chicago natives did not grow up on NY pizza.
2. People are not as adventurous to try new tastes or foods as most people think they are, and NY style pizza is something different than the norm in Chicago.
3. Americans strongly resist change.
4. Americans are strongly ethnocentric. A significant percent of prospective Chicago customers will resist NY pizza on name alone. It isn't from Chicago.

Of course there is a market for NY pizza in Chicago, but I would venture it isn't a very big market.

The same would be true about selling Chicago pizza in NY. Would you open a Chicago pizza place in NY?

I've seen people who were passionate, even evangelical, about introducing NY style pizza to other countries even. I've not seen a successful one yet.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2012, 11:04:30 AM »
I disagree big-time, although a lot of what you say is very true. Like:

1. People develop their tastes of what they consider to be "normal" and "good" very early in life.

Yes, but that doesn't make them shun everything that isn't identical to what they've always known as normal. NY style pizza is accepted everywhere in the United States. If you go to just about any food court in the United States, there will be a Sbarro. No, Sbarro is not a fantastic specimen of NY style pizza. But it is NY style pizza, and it's everywhere because people buy it.

Of course there is a market for NY pizza in Chicago, but I would venture it isn't a very big market.

No matter where you go, there is a market for good, friendly, efficient service in a clean environment. It doesn't matter if you sell mediocre NY style pizza, mediocre Chicago style pizza, or mediocre pizza of any other style. If you create a place where people feel welcome and respected, and you give them a good reason to try you, they will come back.

But offering a quality product is a bonus.

See In-N-Out Burger. Yes, their food is awesome, but their food is only one of many reasons why almost every In-N-Out unit is slammed every day from open to close. When you do things right, it pays off, and In-N-Out is the perfect example that no one ever seems to learn from.

The same would be true about selling Chicago pizza in NY. Would you open a Chicago pizza place in NY?

From what I've seen, New England appears to the biggest market in the United States for deep dish pizza. Uno is headquartered in Boston, and they have stores all over the region, possibly including New York City.

So someone already answered your question with "Yes." And I'd think selling Chicago style pizza in New York and New England would be much more difficult than selling NY style pizza in Chicago.

Offline Papageorgio

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2012, 12:16:46 PM »
Vito & Nicks thin crust was on 'Diners and dives' and they have been doing very well in Chicago since 1932.

http://www.vitoandnick.com/

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2012, 02:07:03 PM »
I could definitely see walking down Michigan Ave. and stopping into a NY slice joint. Out in the 'burbs might be another story...unless you were located in a mall or something like that. You would die a quick death in some neighborhoods.
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Offline jeff v

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
I think it's a risky idea for the following reasons:

1. People develop their tastes of what they consider to be "normal" and "good" very early in life. Chicago natives did not grow up on NY pizza.
2. People are not as adventurous to try new tastes or foods as most people think they are, and NY style pizza is something different than the norm in Chicago.
3. Americans strongly resist change.
4. Americans are strongly ethnocentric. A significant percent of prospective Chicago customers will resist NY pizza on name alone. It isn't from Chicago.

Of course there is a market for NY pizza in Chicago, but I would venture it isn't a very big market.

The same would be true about selling Chicago pizza in NY. Would you open a Chicago pizza place in NY?

I've seen people who were passionate, even evangelical, about introducing NY style pizza to other countries even. I've not seen a successful one yet.

May be the OP should talk more about the proposed business plan-quality, quantity, etc.

I would have been more apt to agree w this at one time but not now. Internet and "foodies" have changed that IMO.

It's pizza, not balut after all.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2012, 06:09:53 PM »
May be the OP should talk more about the proposed business plan-quality, quantity, etc.


You mean Nate was serious about doing this?  Well...then that changes everything.  ;D
IMHO...location, location, location (for this venture) ;)  Hope he has some deep pockets...
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Offline La Sera

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2012, 06:49:24 PM »
The litmus test is money. How much of your money would you invest?
I think there are risks. I didn't say it's impossible.

I'm curious about In-N-Out. Could you explain what the lessons are that no one learns? I've never been to one, so I have no starting point.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 07:21:49 PM »
I'm curious about In-N-Out. Could you explain what the lessons are that no one learns?

Kick-ass service. Never understaffed (and almost always overstaffed). Underpriced. Simple menu. Fantastic workers. Friendly workers. Clean. They never put your food in a bag when you order it for here. Never. Ever. You never hear them talking about banging their boyfriend or girlfriend. You can't tell who the manager is because they all wear the same uniform and the managers actually work. As soon as the line at the counter gets longer than a few people, they open another register because they are there to serve their customers.

When you order your burger at In-N-Out, it's still raw meat that has never been frozen. When you order your fries at In-N-Out, they're still a potato.

While almost every other business tries to take from you without really giving you anything except a headache, In-N-Out Burger gives you more than you paid for. If you're willing to kick ass on the job, they pay you a lot more than their competition would pay you. (But if you don't kick ass, go find another job.)

People who work at In-N-Out take pride in their job. I assume it's a bit of an earned status symbol for high school kids, too.

In-N-Out Burger never lets me down. If I'm near an In-N-Out Burger when I'm hungry, there's nearly a 100% chance that's where I'll eat. (Kinda hard from Ohio, though.)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2012, 07:28:10 PM »
They never get your order wrong...

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2012, 07:28:37 PM »
You never hear them talking about banging their boyfriend or girlfriend.
Probably 50% of what is such a drag about getting fast food....the other 150% is the food!!   ::)
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2012, 09:13:33 PM »
Isn't Chicago thin crust style consumed more than deep dish anyways?

Not sure it even matters. Assuming a NY-Style place in Chi-Town is making a moderately good product, people will eat it. It is pizza, afterall. --K

It's a different style of thin crust though in chicago.  Square cut and almost cracker like.  I get what your saying though.

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2012, 09:21:58 PM »
I could definitely see walking down Michigan Ave. and stopping into a NY slice joint. Out in the 'burbs might be another story...unless you were located in a mall or something like that. You would die a quick death in some neighborhoods.

This is what I'm concerned about the most.  It would probably be a good idea not to mention NY anywhere inside or chit chat.  Chicagoans are very passionate about there food over here and they truly despise of anything NY.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:33:57 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 09:32:19 PM »
You mean Nate was serious about doing this?  Well...then that changes everything.  ;D
IMHO...location, location, location (for this venture) ;)  Hope he has some deep pockets...

I have no intentions of doing it anytime soon but the idea has crossed my mind.  I'd have to do some farmers markets to get some feedback.

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 09:50:03 PM »
Chicagoans are very passionate about there food over here and they truly despise of anything NY.
Nate...I believe you may have just answered your own question my friend. However, in a crowded Metropolitan area you can get away with probably anything pizza wise...choices/options are usually the norm. But even in that environment, location could still be a major consideration.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline La Sera

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2012, 10:56:45 PM »
Okay, thanks for the In-N-Out information. That might be unusual behavior where you are, but what you described is normal for where I am.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2012, 11:16:46 PM »
Okay, thanks for the In-N-Out information. That might be unusual behavior where you are, but what you described is normal for where I am.
La Sera,
Where are you located?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2012, 11:44:14 PM »
Okay, thanks for the In-N-Out information. That might be unusual behavior where you are, but what you described is normal for where I am.

You're not in the United States, are you?

Offline La Sera

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2012, 01:17:30 AM »
No, I'm not. I'm in Japan.

If I told you how polite and hard working my drivers and kitchen staff are, you wouldn't believe me. I'm not throwing darts at the U.S., there is just a Grand Canyon of difference in work ethic.

As the old saying goes in the U.S., the customer is king.
In Japan, the saying is that the customer is God.
God trumps king.  ;)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2012, 12:01:34 PM »
As the old saying goes in the U.S., the customer is king.
In Japan, the saying is that the customer is God.

As is customary in the United States, the worker doesn't get paid enough or treated with enough respect by their superiors to care if the customer is a king, a god, or some a-hole chump. The typical American worker doesn't get paid enough to pay their bills, even though there's plenty to go around. (Yeah, I know it's worse in a few other countries, but that doesn't make it acceptable, especially because a handful of ultra-wealthy scumbags have 100,000 times more than they could ever need, thanks to the hard work of people who have nothing.)

Even though I'd prefer to be treated like a somewhat valuable customer when I go to Burger King, I can certainly understand why it doesn't happen. But since I already know it's not gonna happen before I make a conscious decision to eat at either Burger King or somewhere else, I choose not to eat at Burger King. I have no need to wait in line for 10 or 15 minutes, then give my order to someone who hates their job and their customers, wait another ten minutes for my microwaved, processed "food," wait in the line again because they got my order wrong, wait again for different food to be reheated and packaged, and then eat the groady crap in a dirty dining room.

Why would I pay for that? I don't. I refuse to. And it's not just Burger King; it's almost every fast food joint. And it happens because the shareholders would rather steal from their employees and customers than actually earn their inflated income. It happens because the people who work at these places allow it to happen. It happens because the American people have grown to accept disgusting, overpriced food, and horrible service as the norm.

But I can't blame the employees for doing a horrible job at places like Burger King because they have no incentive to care how well they do their job. No matter how good a job they do, they know they're still gonna have to do the work of two or three people for minimum wage.

Fortunately, in one region of the United States, good workers and smart consumers have a choice to avoid that kind of experience, thanks to In-N-Out Burger (which is not a corporation). And that's why In-N-Out is packed from open to close, in over 300 different locations. When you do things right, and when you're not greedy, you receive so much more than when you cut corners and try to steal from everyone. In-N-Out has figured this out and given the rest of the United States a perfect model to learn from, yet the rest of the United States refuses to learn. It's the American Way.

I figured it out on my own that this kind of business model works, and then I confirmed it by using In-N-Out Burger as a case study, informally. I don't know of any other company in the United States that operates with this kind of business model, although Cheesecake Factory comes close (and REI used to come close). I've wanted, for so long, to open a pizzeria using the same business model, mostly because I can probably do it better than just about everyone. Unfortunately there's nothing I can do about it, simply because I don't have any money.

If I was able to open a pizzeria, I would pay my workers a better hourly wage than I would pay myself in the beginning, if not for a long time after the beginning. (By choice; not because there isn't enough revenue coming in to pay myself, which is why most independent pizzeria owners pay themselves less than they pay their staff.) I would treat my people how I've never been treated at any job I've ever had. If I somehow make what appears to be a bad hire, I'd make sure the person knows what I expect from them before making the decision to fire them (because I may not have trained them right). And if they still don't get it after re-training, see ya.

I'm a lead-by-example kind of guy, whereas most Americans are "Do as I say, not as I do" people.

Obviously Bob and I both figured out on our own that you are not in the United States. (I wrote my post before I saw Bob's.) It wasn't difficult.

I hope I get to experience Japan someday. Sounds like it'll feel like being in a giant In-N-Out Burger.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Will ny pizza sell in Chicago?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2012, 12:24:58 PM »


I hope I get to experience Japan someday. Sounds like it'll feel like being in a giant In-N-Out Burger.
....heaven on earth.  :)
excellent post Ryan  ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"