Author Topic: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 147438 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #160 on: November 04, 2012, 05:34:39 PM »
On my continuing journey to understand more about Buddy’s pizza, a little more information about how Buddy’s and Detroit style pizzas started and pictures of the pies.

http://www.michigan.org/blog/guest-blogger/all-square-a-history-of-detroit-style-pizza/

I am curious if the dough recipe that Anna Gunerra borrowed from her Sicilian mother can be found anywhere on the web.

http://detroitstylepizza.com/history/

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487

A video of Buddy’s pizza on YouTube.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=yL8t46mStE8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=yL8t46mStE8</a>


I also found what is said in this article interesting. 

http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/196277/Pizza-champion-working-to-put-Detroit-style-in-the-spotlight

The dough contains enough hydration that it can't be spun. The moisture, Randazzo says, helps with its texture, which is crunchy on the edges and softer in the middle.

There is a lot that sets Detroit-style pizza apart – the flavor, texture, crust, cheese. The dough is completely different. You don't ball it up, press it out and bake it," he said. "It's completely different from traditional pizza. It has a wow factor."

Another descriptions at this article.

Buddy’s pizza certainly shares a local cousin in Burt’s or Pequod’s with its airy crust topped with a halo of caramelized cheese and fresh, never-canned ingredients. Still there’s a lightness to Buddy’s crust which is itself a profusion of olive oil-soaked perforations topped with dollops of peppery sweet sauce and a gooey Wisconsin brick cheese of singular elasticity that’s never been duplicated locally.

http://resto.newcity.com/2007/08/30/a-pie-worth-the-drive-looking-north-for-inspiration/

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #161 on: November 04, 2012, 05:44:59 PM »
Norma,

I sure don’t remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D
I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

I wonder how we can find out if Buddy’s is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesn’t matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?
I think we would need insider information on the type of yeast Buddy's uses. I have never seen any numbers as to what percent of the pizzerias use ADY. But your question is a good one.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #162 on: November 04, 2012, 09:25:02 PM »
Norma,

I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

Peter


Peter,

I had enough of those Limoncellos to make me feel good, but not enough to not know what I was doing or reading.  Throw that kind of stuff at me anytime, because I sure got a good chuckle out of it.     :-D

Back to the business of me understanding more about Buddy's pizza. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2012, 09:15:05 AM »
So the saga continues for me to find out more what Buddy’s pies look like and any other information I can find, since I don’t live near a Buddy’s. 

Some more pictures of Buddy’s pizza, if the below pictures are clicked on.  There are more than four pictures of Buddy’s pizza from the link below.  Some of the cheese on the edges of Buddy’s pizzas looks browned more than my attempts, some of the edges look crisper, Buddy’s pizza don’t look all that thick, the crumb doesn’t look really airy to me, there looks to be a gum line on one of the pizza in the crumb (I think picture 7) and the cheese does look like the Eddie’s brick cheese when the pizzas are baked.  I wonder why the one  picture that shows a sign that says Cheese Pizza say Motor City Cheese Blend & Tomato Basil Sauce.  I also wonder if the Tomato Basil Sauce is like the Saporito product I use with basil leaves in the tomato sauce.  If that picture can’t be found, it is the one that the sign says Coney Dog Pizza.  I really can’t tell by the sign, (because there is a glare on the top left of it), but what is the G something on there?  I copied that picture and am posting it.

https://foursquare.com/seandolinar/checkin/508c2da6e4b0d2cf8b334aab?s=5CjQBLdu2zopiv4YrB5Lz65YJNQ&ref=tw  (I needed to scroll down to see the picture first four pictures on this linked then started by clicking on the first picture.)

If anyone is interested in looking at all the pizzas at Buddy’s and other foods, start by clicking on the first picture.  I think there are about 30 some pictures at Buddy’s.

I found those pictures at https://twitter.com/buddyspizza under Buddy's Pizza ‏@buddyspizza
Now that sounds fun. RT @seandolinar: Detroit Pizza! #PizzaExplosionTour2012 (@ Buddy's Pizza) http://4sq.com/RpmxBg

This also is a picture of the Pubs of Motor City Detroit Poster.  “Bring the Motor City to your home with an original Pubs of Motor City Poster featuring the one and only original Buddy’s Pizza“

If any of the links from different posters on Buddy’s twitter are clicked on, more pictures of Buddy‘s pizza can be seen.  This is what is recent on Buddy’s twitter account. 

Maybe my last attempt really wasn’t right in how airy the crumb looked and maybe the hydration really isn’t a lot more then 70%.   

I copied the one picture to show the crumb, incase something happens to the links.  I also could copy the other pictures and post them if anyone is interested.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2012, 09:40:02 AM »
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2012, 10:44:18 AM »
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting I will drive myself crazy if I keep trying to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy’s pizzas.

I guess I will just try to do the best I can, with my goal of having a decent Buddy’s clone pizza to sell at market.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »
I called Buddy’s again yesterday to see about them shipping me a parbaked Buddy’s pizza.  The lady told me to call back about 10:00 AM this morning.  I did call Buddy’s and the lady told me they ship though FedEx and I would need to give them a day in advance to get the pizza ready for shipping if I decided to order one.  She also told me they ship the parbaked pizza in dry ice and the approximate cost for that is 45.00, plus the cost for the pizza to my area where I live.  She told me they wouldn’t know the real cost until the day the pizza is shipped.  The lady also told me it would take FedEx two to three days to deliver to my home from the time of shipping from Buddy‘s.  I asked the lady if the Buddy’s pizza that is shipped would taste fresh and she said many people do order Buddy’s pizza to be shipped and they are satisfied that they do taste like a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza. 

I have to give purchasing a parbaked Buddy’s pizza a lot of thought, because that is a lot of money for one pizza.  I also asked if they also ship dough balls and she said no they don’t sell dough balls.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2012, 10:51:06 AM »
I just received this email from Mandi Cheese Shop.  This is what it said.

Good morning Norma,

I am happy to hear your cheese arrived on time, and in good condition! Thank you for letting us know. Eddie's Brick Cheese is made by Great Lakes Cheese in Wisconsin. As brick cheese ages the flavor does get stronger, however, it is a mild cheese to begin with. As for comparing Eddie's Brick Cheese with Foremost Farms Brick Cheese, the ingredients for both cheeses seem to be the same. I do see that Foremost Farms lists their brick cheese as "Firm, stringy" while Eddie's Brick is semi-soft with an open texture. I hope this information helps! Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards, Kayla Kinskey Mandi Cheese Shop

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2012, 10:56:23 AM »
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2012, 11:33:52 AM »
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me about a Buddy’s Yelp review that you recently read.  As the lady described Buddy’s cheese as "nice, robust and stinky" I would guess that Buddy’s brick cheese is aged.  That sure gave me a laugh too.  Same problems as the boardwalk thread in getting the cheese/or cheese blend right.   :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2012, 05:45:10 PM »
I mixed enough dough for 3 Buddy’s clone attempts.  The dough was mixed by dissolving the salt into the water, then mixing with the flat beater and then the dough hook.  The dough was still sticky, but not as sticky as when just using the flat beater.  The final dough temperature was 78.3 degrees F.  With a few stretch and folds it became more manageable.  I then put a little flour on the table to be able to scale and ball the dough balls.  Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.  I just put the poppy seeds on the three dough balls to see how much they ferment until tomorrow when I try to temper them in the steel pans in the Hatco unit.  I think this dough is fermenting pretty fast.  From the time I mixed the dough this morning until I took the pictures at market the poppy seeds already have started spreading.   

If anyone wants me to post the print sheet from the formulation I can, but it is the same one I used in my one attempt, but I just used the expanded dough calculation tool for 3 dough balls.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2012, 05:47:04 PM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2012, 05:47:57 PM »
Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #173 on: November 06, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »
Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #174 on: November 06, 2012, 09:01:44 PM »
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.


Skee,

I am using a 8x10 steel pan shown at Reply   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.0.html

I will try to resize all of the pictures of the 3 pies I made today and post all of them tomorrow, but these are two pictures of the heights of two of the pizzas I make today.  I used different tempering methods for 3 pies though today.

Are you sure your steel pans are 7x10 inches?  I had thought my pans also were smaller, but when measuring the top edges of my pans are 8x10 inches.  

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #175 on: November 07, 2012, 07:49:16 AM »
The tests on the 3 Buddy’s clone dough balls were a little bit confusing, but the 3 pizzas tasted good.  I was going to try three different tempering methods, but guess I only tried two.  The Hatco unit was used for the tempering of the doughs in the steel pans, but no humidity was added (I can add humidity in the Hatco unit by adding water in the reservoir).  I hadn’t thought of it, but didn’t put any lid or aluminum foil on the first dough in the pan (I was just trying to watch to see how it fermented).  After about 15-20 minutes, I checked on the dough in the pan and found there was a dry skin on top of the dough.  I then covered the pan with the lid.  The first dough didn’t have any punch down.  The second dough did have aluminum foil put on top of the steel pan, but that dough also formed a skin, but not as bad.  The second dough in the steel pan was punched down after it has risen one time and then left to proof again.  The final pizzas from the two methods really weren’t much of any difference.  The third dough was just left to rise in the steel pan and it also formed a skin with the plastic lid.  No punch down was done in the third dough.

I used two different oils to oil the steel pans.  For the first pizza peanut oil was used.  For the second and third pizzas corn oil was used.  I didn’t purchase any Canola oil yet to try.  None of my bottom crusts were crunchy.  Steve liked the way the bottom crusts were, because he likes soft crusts.  I also liked them, but don’t think Buddy’s crusts are that way.  The way I have read that they are supposed to be is crunchy.  I am not sure of how to get the bottom crusts more crunchy.  All of the crumbs in the pizzas were very tender.

The one dough was left to warm-up for an hour and the second two doughs were only left at room temperature a very short time.  Each dough ball opened very easily with a tiny bit of bench flour.  The second two doughs were cold when they were opened.

Poppy seed spacing were used on two doughs when they were put in the steel pans, but when trying to put poppy seeds on dough that is floured a little, (from opening the dough balls) it sure is hard to get the poppy seeds to stay in one place and stick.  I asked Steve what he thought was going to happen with the poppy seed spacing and he predicted that the poppy seeds probably would move closer together than the usual poppy seed spacing that the poppy seeds move apart more.  Steve was right that the poppy seed spacing did come closer together after the dough fermented more.  The Hatco unit was kept at about 94-96 degrees F.  It didn’t seem to matter how long the dough is proofed in the Hatco unit, or if there was a punch down and fermenting more.  The heights of all the baked pizzas were about the same.

I used my regular pizza sauce from market on all these pizzas and used 4 ounces of sauce on all of the three pizzas.  On all three pizzas 8 ounces of cheese were used, but in the last pizza Steve and I tried out a blend of 2 cheeses.  That is why the rim and top cheeses were browner.  On the third pizza a blend of Land O Lakes Italian Blend and the Eddie’s brick cheese were used 50/50.  Steve likes the taste of brick cheese on a baked pizza.  He also tasted the brick cheese plain and said the brick cheese is mild.  Steve said the brick cheese gives a buttery taste on the baked pizzas.

The weights of all 3 pizzas were.

First pizza.  1 lb. 3.8 ounces
Second pizza. 1 lb. 4.1 ounces
Third pizza 1 lb. 4.2 ounces.

All of three pizzas took about 12 minutes to bake.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #176 on: November 07, 2012, 07:50:48 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #177 on: November 07, 2012, 07:51:47 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #178 on: November 07, 2012, 07:53:02 AM »
Norma
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Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #179 on: November 07, 2012, 07:54:10 AM »
Norma
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