Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 218978 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #450 on: November 25, 2012, 05:11:33 PM »
I called Buddyís a little while ago and spoke with Kristen this time.  I wanted clarification if my Buddyís cheese and pepperoni pizza is going to be just a frozen pizza or half-baked pizza and then frozen.  Kristen told me the pizza will be half-baked then frozen.  I really donít think Allison knew what she was talking about yesterday.

Norma,

I agree with you that Kristen most likely has it right. If you think about it, how would you bake a defrosted unbaked pizza in free form on something like a cookie sheet and have it retain its shape? With partial baking, the pizza should be "set" and therefore retain its shape but it won't rise any more during baking. The downside of the half-baked pizza is that the "before" and "after" weights may not tell us as much as we might have gotten with an unbaked frozen version. That notwithstanding, hopefully you will be able to enjoy the pizza and compare it with your own efforts. And, no doubt, you will learn a lot about their pizza.

I hope they don't forget the extra sauce. If they send the extra sauce, that will give us a pretty good idea as to the amount of sauce that is used on the Buddy's 4-square pizzas. It's possible that that sample is what is used in the process of creating the Buddy's Nutrition information. It might also be what they provide with their half-baked pizzas that they sell to their customers. Otherwise, the sauce sitting on top of the pizza might stick to the wrapping materials and make a mess.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #451 on: November 25, 2012, 05:54:04 PM »
Norma,

The closest pans that I am aware of to the Detroit style steel pans, with or without bluing, are the dark anodized pre-seasoned aluminum Detroit style pans sold by Lloyd Pans. As noted at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/rectangular-pans-and-disks/detroit-style-deep-dish, the Lloyd Detroit style pans are of the standard 8" x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes but they are only 2" deep. That might pose a problem in cross stacking the pans if the dough in the pans rises above 2". A major disadvantage of the Lloyd Detroit style pans is that they are very expensive, about three times the cost of the steel pans that just about all of the major players use to make Detroit style pizzas, not only in the Metro Detroit area but elsewhere around the country.

In my research, I looked for signs that pizza operators were using the Lloyd Detroit style pans. I could not find a single example. No doubt someone somewhere is using the Lloyd Detroit style pans, and I am sure that they are of high quality, but it seems that the standard is the Detroit style steel pans that have been in use for years. Lloyd, and its sister company Pizzatools, is a very opportunistic company when it comes to reacting to market trends but it may have a hard time convincing pizza operators to use their pans so long as the cheaper steel pans are available.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít really look at the dark anodized pre-seasoned aluminum Detroit style pans sold by Lloyd Pans and really didnít see how expensive they were, but know the black buster steel pan at Bova are very expensive.  I really donít recall how much I paid for my one black buster steel pan, but think in was in the twenty something dollar range.  I know the black buster steel pans at Bova donít have really high edges either like the Detroit-style steel pans I purchased.  I could maybe see a problem with the Lloyd Detroit style pans with cross stacking too if the dough in the pans rises above 2Ē.

I can understand that Lloyd Pans, its sister company Pizzatools, or any other company that makes those kind of pans would have a hard time convincing pizza operators that want to try and make Detroit-style pizzas to try their pans.  It would be too expensive when the auto parts steel pans work well in making a Detroit-style pizza.  I for one, not knowing how Detroit-style pizzas will sell at market would not want to go to that expense and then not be able to sell that style of pizzas.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #452 on: November 25, 2012, 06:04:19 PM »
Norma,

I agree with you that Kristen most likely has it right. If you think about it, how would you bake a defrosted unbaked pizza in free form on something like a cookie sheet and have it retain its shape? With partial baking, the pizza should be "set" and therefore retain its shape but it won't rise any more during baking. The downside of the half-baked pizza is that the "before" and "after" weights may not tell us as much as we might have gotten with an unbaked frozen version. That notwithstanding, hopefully you will be able to enjoy the pizza and compare it with your own efforts. And, no doubt, you will learn a lot about their pizza.

I hope they don't forget the extra sauce. If they send the extra sauce, that will give us a pretty good idea as to the amount of sauce that is used on the Buddy's 4-square pizzas. It's possible that that sample is what is used in the process of creating the Buddy's Nutrition information. It might also be what they provide with their half-baked pizzas that they sell to their customers. Otherwise, the sauce sitting on top of the pizza might stick to the wrapping materials and make a mess.

Peter

Peter,

After I spoke with Allison yesterday I also thought it over and then had many questions, on how the pizza would bake without anyone having a steel pan, how the edges might brown, or how it would retain it shape.  I am glad you think Kristen had it right this time. 

I understand that a half-baked Buddyís pizza probably wonít tell us much since it will be half-baked.  I at least hope to learn some about Buddyís pizza from the half-baked pizza I will be receiving.

I hope Buddyís doesnít forget the sauce either.  I would think the sauce would be the same as what Buddyís uses on their two sizes of pizza, but will have to wait and see what happens.  I should get an email tomorrow when the Buddyís pepperoni and cheese pizza is shipped.  I will also send another email to them asking them if they remembered the extra sauce.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #453 on: November 25, 2012, 06:27:56 PM »
I can understand that Lloyd Pans, its sister company Pizzatools, or any other company that makes those kind of pans would have a hard time convincing pizza operators that want to try and make Detroit-style pizzas to try their pans.

Norma,

Lloyd says that its Detroit style pans bake faster than steel pans. However, that may require adjusting the bake temperatures and times to achieve the same results that one will get using the thinner steel pans, including getting the degree of caramelization of the cheese as Craig discussed. Also, if you read this interesting Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, you will see that the fellow (Mike Stenke) who started Klausie's Pizza in Raleigh, NC said the he tried the aluminum pans and found them wanting. However, he may have been talking about raw aluminum pans, not dark anodized ones. I think you will also find other parts of the article of interest, including the challenge of finding good brick cheese outside of the Midwest. You will also note the Bakers Pride oven. And, like you, he was using Buddy's as his model and inspiration.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #454 on: November 25, 2012, 07:28:22 PM »
Well, what a small world....I see Klausie's truck around town all the time. I know that he's become very popular in just a short period of time....think maybe it's about time for me to give him a try so I'll then know what these great looking pizzas you are making here actually taste like.... :chef:
Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #455 on: November 25, 2012, 10:42:09 PM »
Norma,

Lloyd says that its Detroit style pans bake faster than steel pans. However, that may require adjusting the bake temperatures and times to achieve the same results that one will get using the thinner steel pans, including getting the degree of caramelization of the cheese as Craig discussed. Also, if you read this interesting Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, you will see that the fellow (Mike Stenke) who started Klausie's Pizza in Raleigh, NC said the he tried the aluminum pans and found them wanting. However, he may have been talking about raw aluminum pans, not dark anodized ones. I think you will also find other parts of the article of interest, including the challenge of finding good brick cheese outside of the Midwest. You will also note the Bakers Pride oven. And, like you, he was using Buddy's as his model and inspiration.

Peter

Peter,

I wonder if anyone here on the forum has reported that Lloydís Detroit style pans bake faster than other steel pans.  I donít even think I ever timed any of the bakes of any of the Greek-style pizza I have made in my black buster steel pan, or Steveís black buster steel pans.  That might be something I might do someday.  I didnít seem to have any problems with the first pie in this thread and did bake that pizza in the black buster steel pan and even baked it on the bottom deck of my gas oven.  It now makes me wonder if thicker steel pans are better than the auto parts steel pans.

You and other members might laugh, but I did mention to Steve that I might want to purchase a truck something like Mikeís truck and take it traveling if I can ever make a decent Detroit-style pizza.  I guess I will never get that part out of me.  I could even have it parked outside of Rootís in the warmer month because it is much busier outside then in my part of the market.  You just never know what I might decide to do.

I also wonder if the pans Mike uses are really stainless steel pans, or might he mean just steel pans as the article you linked to on Slice.  They look like regular auto parts pans to me.  Whatever kind of steel pans Mike is using at least old and well seasoned.  I see Mike does use lids on some of his pans.  I didnít know that before. 

I wonder where Mike found his brick cheese if it was from dairies up north.  I did contact Widmer cheese later last week to see if their brick cheese is available in my area, but didnít get any answers yet (probably because of the holidays).  Mike saying he got sample blocks of this dairyís brick and that dairyís brick has me wondering more about the different tastes brick cheese might have, or where they can be found.  I havenít figured out how the brick cheese should taste, or melt, but saw the brick cheese does have a high fat level.   

I also find Mikeís quest to find the right sauce interesting.   Mikeís Bakerís Pride oven looks a lot like mine does too.  I toughly enjoyed reading that article from Slice and liked how Mike had determination in trying to make the style of Detroit pizza his wanted to.

Thanks for the link to the article on Slice about Klausieís Pizza in Raleigh, NC.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #456 on: November 25, 2012, 10:43:25 PM »
Well, what a small world....I see Klausie's truck around town all the time. I know that he's become very popular in just a short period of time....think maybe it's about time for me to give him a try so I'll then know what these great looking pizzas you are making here actually taste like.... :chef:
Bob

Bob,

That sounds like a great idea for you to purchase some of Mike's Detroit style pizzas to see what you think.   ;D

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #457 on: November 25, 2012, 10:51:09 PM »
Bob,

That sounds like a great idea for you to purchase some of Mike's Detroit style pizzas to see what you think.   ;D

Norma
Exactly what I was thinking...let me know if you need me to reconnaissance anything in particular for ya'll  Norma.  :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #458 on: November 25, 2012, 10:57:58 PM »
Exactly what I was thinking...let me know if you need me to reconnaissance anything in particular for ya'll  Norma.  :chef:

Bob,

As you know any clues are helpful, especially the cheese or sauce.

Thanks!  ;)

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #459 on: November 25, 2012, 11:28:15 PM »
Bob,

As you know any clues are helpful, especially the cheese or sauce.

Thanks!  ;)

Norma
Yes, the cheese was the first object to come to mind. After reading Peter's link to Klausie's (Mike's) truck, I found it very interesting how he was/is able to go through multiple distributor's to get the Wisc. cheese he desires down here in NC. It made me wonder if I could see whether one of his dists. possibly might turn out to be one that you could be able to link with....we'll see, Norma, I'll keep you posted with what all I find out with Klausie's truck.  ;)

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #460 on: November 26, 2012, 06:29:37 AM »
Norma,

The pans that Klausie's is using seem to be the old blue steel pans. I sometimes read articles that say the pans are cast iron pans so I trust my own eyes rather than what a writer says in an article.

I also sometimes read about twice baking. Interestingly, Klausie's uses thrice baking. See the article at http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/. Note, also, the continuing problem with getting good brick cheese.

You should also check out the article at http://anotherdayinparadisewithdaveandlisa.blogspot.com/2012/01/pie-like-no-other-klausies-pizza.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 07:50:09 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #461 on: November 26, 2012, 08:42:37 AM »
Yes, the cheese was the first object to come to mind. After reading Peter's link to Klausie's (Mike's) truck, I found it very interesting how he was/is able to go through multiple distributor's to get the Wisc. cheese he desires down here in NC. It made me wonder if I could see whether one of his dists. possibly might turn out to be one that you could be able to link with....we'll see, Norma, I'll keep you posted with what all I find out with Klausie's truck.  ;)

Bob

Bob,

I have a big list with links about what companies produce brick cheese here in the US saved in my documents, but havenít had time to go though them yet.  Almost of them are dairies in Wisconsin though.  I wonder what Mike meant by saying he had samples from dairies in the North.  Most of the dairies are small companies though in my list, so I donít know about them distributing their brick cheeses all over the country.  As I found out with Great Lakes brick cheese they do distribute to Schiffs in Scranton, Pa., but that is 2 hrs away from me.  I am waiting for an email reply from Widmer cheese.  I think they are a big producer of brick cheese.  Also how much brick cheese is aged changes the flavor profile of the brick cheese.  Maybe I will get a better handle on how Buddyís cheese tastes after I get my pizza from Buddyís. 

Buddyís pizzas looks very similar to what steel_bakerís Victory Pig Style Pizza do.  One of his Victory Pig clones are at Reply 35 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg160489.html#msg160489   steel_bakerís Victory Pig clone dough has oil and sugar in the formulation though, which I know Buddyís doesnít.  I find it interesting how steel_bakersí Victory Pig pizzas look so similar to what a Buddyís pizza does.  I made two attempts at a Victory Pig pizza on steel_bakerís thread.  Brick cheese isnít used on steel_bakerís Victory Pig clone Pizza though.

Another pizza that might use brick cheese is Old Forge Pizza.  big lover reported on the Old Forge, Pa. thread that brick cheese is used as the cheese at Reply 52 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1082.msg55100.html#msg55100  The Old Forge pizza made in a pan sure doesnít look like a Buddyís pizza though.

Victory Pig and Old Forge are near the Scranton area.

If you get to try Klausieís Detroit-style pizza please try to note the taste of the cheese.  Is it mild, does it taste like cheddar or something else. Thanks!  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #462 on: November 26, 2012, 09:10:09 AM »
Norma,

The pans that Klausie's is using seem to be the old blue steel pans. I sometimes read articles that say the pans are cast iron pans so I trust my own eyes rather than what a writer says in an article.

I also sometimes read about twice baking. Interestingly, Klausie's uses thrice baking. See the article at http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/. Note, also, the continuing problem with getting good brick cheese.

You should also check out the article at http://anotherdayinparadisewithdaveandlisa.blogspot.com/2012/01/pie-like-no-other-klausies-pizza.html.

Peter


Peter,

I agree, I also trust my own eyes other than what is posted about those blue steel pans of Mikeís.

That article you reference and the triple bake, double proof is interesting.  Mike said the dough is allowed to proof once, then again in an oiled steel pan.  It sounds like Mike first par-bakes the crust by what he said.   ďMike cuts the cheese into cubes and tops the panbaked crust with themĒ  I guess there are more than one way to skin a cat in making Detroit-style pizzas as Mike has shown.

I see Mike also has problems with getting the brick cheese and he even says there is a slight sharpness depending on the age of the brick cheese.  My Eddieís brick cheese from Mandi cheese is not sharp at all.  I see he also has to use other cheeses at times.  I know my AMPI mild cheddar blend and two mozzarellas isnít too far off from what Eddieís brick cheese tastes like.  After I get my Buddyís pizza maybe I can determine if maybe a stronger cheddar is needed if I canít locate brick cheese in my area.  My blend at least oils off and browns decently on the edges of the crust.

I also noted in the Klausieís Detroit-style article from your first link that Mike says the sauce is added on top of the melted cheese at the very end.  That is a departure from a Buddyís pizza in my opinion.

In the second article you referenced it said that butter is used to brush the crusts.  I wonder why that is needed, unless it is needed to moisten up the par-baked crust.  Mikeís whole process sounds like a lot of work to me, even though his Detroit-style pizzas look really good.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #463 on: November 26, 2012, 10:13:57 AM »
The weathermen are reporting that old man winter is supposed to be rearing his head in our area tonight.  They really arenít calling for a lot of snow (1-2ď), but it might make roads slippery tomorrow morning.  There is a 60% chance that it will snow during the night and might keep up during the morning hours and might even change to some rain later.  If there is snow, usually not many people come to market.  I am going to market to make my regular NY style dough today and do other things I need to do, but am not sure if I am going to make some more clone Buddyís doughs to try tomorrow. 

This is how the one Buddyís clone dough ball is fermenting in my refrigerator a few minutes ago.  It doesnít look like it fermented much from yesterday when I took the pictures.

I am going to let the two Buddyís clone doughs at home, until I see what happens tomorrow morning.  I will bring a small steel pan home incase I donít go to market tomorrow. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #464 on: November 26, 2012, 11:06:24 AM »
Norma,

I was most interested in Mike's comments on the importance of the type of cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I have to believe that with all of the testing and experimenting he did with cheeses that his comments have some validity. So, with that in mind, I revisited what I believe we know about the types of cheeses used by the various purveyors of the Detroit style pizza.

Starting with Klausie's, I think it is fair to say that they use brick cheese to the extent it is available to them. Buddy's uses brick cheese. Shield's is reported to use brick cheese. Loui's uses two cheeses on its pizzas, but mozzarella cheese is not one of them. Other than that, we do not know what the two cheeses are although I am guessing that brick cheese may be one of them since Louis Tourtois worked for years at Buddy's and Shield's, and brick cheese is readily available to him (and now his son). The Detroit Pizza Style Co uses mozzarella cheese and brick cheese but it is not clear whether the two cheeses are blended. It could be that the brick cheese is placed around the sides of the pans, to become nicely caramelized during baking, and the mozzarella cheese is used for the rest of the pizza. However, I have read that the cheeses are shredded. Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride, CO uses whole milk mozzarella cheese (I believe it is Grande) and aged white cheddar cheese but, again, we don't know if the cheeses are blended or added separately. Jet's uses Grande low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese although it should be noted that Jet's does not call their square pizza "Detroit style". That may be intentional since they are expanding nationwide and do not wish to be viewed as strictly a Detroit style pizza operator. We do not know what cheese or cheese blend Via 313 uses.

With the above as background, I think it is safe to say that brick cheese is a good choice if one wants to get good caramelization of the cheese. Looking at pizzas made using only mozzarella cheese, such as the Jet's pizza shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948, I see that the sides are browned but I don't see that vertical dam of caramelized cheese that seems to characterize the basic Detroit style pizzas made by Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's, and Cloverleaf/Detroit Pizza Style Co, at least as exemplified by the photos shown at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Likewise for the Klausie's Detroit style pizza. Several of the Brown Dog Detroit style pizzas I have seen also exhibit that vertical dam of caramelized cheese, so maybe the white cheddar cheese contributes to that effect. Looking at the Via 313 photos at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g, some but not all of their pizzas exhibit that effect to one degree or another. I am guessing that one of their cheeses may be brick cheese or maybe a white cheddar cheese. Or maybe I am simply reading too much into all of this and that any cheese if forced along the sides of the pan will caramelize in a dam-like way.

Mike cuts the cheese into cubes and tops the panbaked crust with them
I believe the author of the article meant to say "diced". It would seem impractical to cut the brick cheese into cubes, presumably by hand. As noted in the photo at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, Buddy's, which was the inspiration of Mike at Klausie's, looks to use a diced cheese.

In the second article you referenced it said that butter is used to brush the crusts.  I wonder why that is needed, unless it is needed to moisten up the par-baked crust.
I first saw reference to the use of butter and also a twice bake in a comment by a poster at http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/25/1587230/restaurant/Inside-the-Beltline/Klausies-Pizza-food-truck-Raleigh. I thought that perhaps the commenter was just paraphrasing what wikipedia says about the Detroit style pizza at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza, to wit, The crust of a Detroit-style pizza is noteworthy because in addition to occasionally being twice-baked, it is usually baked in a well-oiled pan to a chewy medium-well-done state that gives the bottom and edges of the crust a fried/crunchy texture. Some parlors will apply melted butter with a soft brush prior to baking. In Klausie's case, it looks like both statements apply but with the butter added after baking rather than before. Like you, I suspect the butter helps soften the crust somewhat but also to give more flavor to the crust (the often sought after "buttery" crust).

Peter
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:59:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #465 on: November 26, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »
Peter, Norma,

From what little I know about brick, it appears the characteristics can vary quite widely - much more so than most cheeses. I understand that some is washed rind/ripened, and some isn't - this in and of itself suggests there are very different brick cheeses out there; and some is sold very young and some is aged. It sounds like brick cheese can be similar to cheeses ranging from mozerella to Limburger.

I'm not sure how much value there is in knowing that someone uses brick cheese if you don't know what brick cheese.

Just a thought.

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #466 on: November 26, 2012, 12:17:48 PM »
Norma,

I was most interested in Mike's comments on the importance of the type of cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I have to believe that with all of the testing and experimenting he did with cheeses that his comments have some validity. So, with that in mind, I revisited what I believe we know about the types of cheeses used by the various purveyors of the Detroit style pizza.

Starting with Klausie's, I think it is fair to say that they use brick cheese to the extent it is available to them. Buddy's uses brick cheese. Shield's is reported to use brick cheese. Loui's uses two cheeses on its pizzas, but mozzarella cheese is not one of them. Other than that, we do not know what the two cheeses are although I am guessing that brick cheese may be one of them since Louis Tourtois worked for years at Buddy's and Shield's, and brick cheese is readily available to him (and now his son). The Detroit Pizza Style Co uses mozzarella cheese and brick cheese but it is not clear whether the two cheeses are blended. It could be that the brick cheese is placed around the sides of the pans, to become nicely caramelized during baking, and the mozzarella cheese is used for the rest of the pizza. Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride, CO uses whole milk mozzarella cheese (I believe it is Grande) and aged white cheddar cheese but, again, we don't know if the cheeses are blended or added separately. Jet's uses Grande low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese although it should be noted that Jet's does not call their square pizza "Detroit style". That may be intentional since they are expanding nationwide and do not wish to be viewed as strictly a Detroit style pizza operator. We do not know what cheese or cheese blend Via 313 uses.

With the above as background, I think it is safe to say that brick cheese is a good choice if one wants to get good caramelization of the cheese. Looking at pizzas made using only mozzarella cheese, such as the Jet's pizza shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948, I see that the sides are browned but I don't see that vertical dam of caramelized cheese that seems to characterize the basic Detroit style pizzas made by Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's, and Cloverleaf/Detroit Pizza Style Co, at least as exemplified by the photos shown at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Likewise for the Klausie's Detroit style pizza. Several of the Blue Dog Detroit style pizzas I have seen also exhibit that vertical dam of caramelized cheese, so maybe the white cheddar cheese contributes to that effect. Looking at the Via 313 photos at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g, some but not all of their pizzas exhibit that effect to one degree or another. I am guessing that one of their cheeses may be brick cheese or maybe a white cheddar cheese. Or maybe I am simply reading too much into all of this and that any cheese if forced along the sides of the pan will caramelize in a dam-like way.
I believe the author of the article meant to say "diced". It would seem impractical to cut the brick cheese into cubes, presumably by hand. As noted in the photo at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, Buddy's, which was the inspiration of Mike at Klausie's, looks to use a diced cheese.
I first saw reference to the use of butter and also a twice bake in a comment by a poster at http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/25/1587230/restaurant/Inside-the-Beltline/Klausies-Pizza-food-truck-Raleigh. I thought that perhaps the commenter was just paraphrasing what wikipedia says about the Detroit style pizza at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza, to wit, The crust of a Detroit-style pizza is noteworthy because in addition to occasionally being twice-baked, it is usually baked in a well-oiled pan to a chewy medium-well-done state that gives the bottom and edges of the crust a fried/crunchy texture. Some parlors will apply melted butter with a soft brush prior to baking. In Klausie's case, it looks like both statements apply but with the butter added after baking rather than before. Like you, I suspect the butter helps soften the crust somewhat but also to give more flavor to the crust (the often sought after "buttery" crust).

Peter


Peter,

I like your summary of what Detroit-style pizzerias that use brick cheese, or a combination of brick and another cheese.  I am interested in Mikeís comments too on the importance of the type of cheese Detroit style pizza use.  To get that dammed up caramelization of cheeses really isnít that hard in my opinion if you look though the Greek-style pizza thread.  I never tried to make a Greek-style pizza in a 8Ēx10Ē pan, but might have to try that sometime to see if the caramelization of the cheese still happens.  I know Steve and I have used many blends of cheeses on the Greek-style thread and it didnít appear to me that there were problems with caramelization of the cheeses.  It just seems to me that you need cheddar on the edges to get that caramelization.  At Steveís post on the Greek-style thread you can see Steve did get good caramelization of the medium white cheddar on his pizza at Reply 125  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg124557.html#msg124557  I recall that pizza and it was very tasty.  I even tried a Greek style pie that was not even made in my black buster steel pan at home and also got good caramelization.  I canít recall what cheese/or cheese blend I used on that pizza at Reply 143 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg125069.html#msg125069 but many combinations seem to work.  Now as for the brick taste I am not sure of that.  I have to wait until I taste the Buddyís pizza.

I agree that the author meant to say diced, like Buddyís pizza in the article about Mikeís Detroit-style pizzas.

As for butter on the par-bake crust after it is baked, I always put a garlic herb, oil, margarine blend on my Greek-style pizza and all that seems to do is the crust a better flavor.  I havenít tried that by par-baking the crust first though.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #467 on: November 26, 2012, 12:22:52 PM »
Peter, Norma,

From what little I know about brick, it appears the characteristics can vary quite widely - much more so than most cheeses. I understand that some is washed rind/ripened, and some isn't - this in and of itself suggests there are very different brick cheeses out there; and some is sold very young and some is aged. It sounds like brick cheese can be similar to cheeses ranging from mozerella to Limburger.

I'm not sure how much value there is in knowing that someone uses brick cheese if you don't know what brick cheese.

Just a thought.

Craig

Craig,

I also agree with you that brick cheese can take on many flavors and can be mild and some strong tasting.  Brick can be very similar to cheddar in my opinion.  I have tried so many cheddars on the boardwalk thread and know that some can be very mild and some can be potent in flavor.  That is one reason I had so many problems with the cheese in that thread.

Can you tell me what Via 313ís cheese tastes like to you?  Was it mild, or did it taste stronger?

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #468 on: November 26, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »
This is the email I received from Buddyís 22 minutes ago.  It gave me the tracking number.

Your shipment total is $47.41.  If there is any problems call us.

Thanks you Dennis

I did send an email right back asking if they remembered to include the extra sauce.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #469 on: November 26, 2012, 12:45:35 PM »
Craig,

I also agree with you that brick cheese can take on many flavors and can be mild and some strong tasting.  Brick can be very similar to cheddar in my opinion.  I have tried so many cheddars on the boardwalk thread and know that some can be very mild and some can be potent in flavor.  That is one reason I had so many problems with the cheese in that thread.

Can you tell me what Via 313ís cheese tastes like to you?  Was it mild, or did it taste stronger?

Norma.



My guess is that it is cheddar on the edge and mozzerella in the middle. Maybe some cheddar in the mozzerella. It was not too strong.

CL
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #470 on: November 26, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »
Out of curiosity, I called one of the Central Markets in Austin and also the one in Houston and spoke with the cheese specialists in those stores to see if they carry brick cheeses and, if so, who the producers are. I was told by the cheese specialist at CM Austin that they carry the Wilmont Farms brick cheese; the cheese specialist for the Houston CM said that they carry both the Wilmont Farms brick cheese and the Widmer brick cheese. According to http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html, Wilmont Farms is apparently a brand name for cheese products from many different cheese producers in Wisconsin. Widmer is one of the top names in brick cheeses, at least in terms of authenticity, or so I concluded when I researched brick cheeses some time ago. Their website, where their brick cheese products can be examined, is at http://www.widmerscheese.com/. I know that Norma is familiar with the Widmer name and, I believe, she is awaiting a response to an email she sent to them to see if their brick cheese is available from someone near her.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:59:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #471 on: November 26, 2012, 12:57:34 PM »
fwiw, when doing a "Bert's" pie in a deep aluminum black hard anodized pan...I've used mozz,provo,gouda, and munster(not all together,but sometimes a mixture), I'll oil the bottom of the pan but never the sides and I can burn any of those cheese's BLACK(on the edge/side of pan) if I wanted to.

ps, going to Klausie's truck latter today. I'll take some pics and ask some questions...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 01:01:28 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #472 on: November 26, 2012, 01:27:15 PM »
Out of curiosity, I called one of the Central Markets in Austin and also the one in Houston and spoke with the cheese specialists in those stores to see if they carry brick cheeses and, if so, who the producers are. I was told by the cheese specialist at CM Austin that they carry the Wilmont Farms brick cheese; the cheese specialist for the Houston CM said that they carry both the Wilmont Farms brick cheese and the Widmer brick cheese. According to http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html, Wilmont Farms is apparently a brand name for cheese products from many different cheese producers in Wisconsin. Widmer is one of the top names in brick cheeses, at least in terms of authenticity, or so I concluded when I researched brick cheeses some time ago. Their website, where their brick cheese products can be examined, is at http://www.widmerscheese.com/. I know that Norma is familiar with the Widmer name and, I believe, she is awaiting a response to an email she sent to them to see if their brick cheese is available from someone near her.

Peter

I only remember seeing one brick cheese at CM in Houston. It's possible I missed the other. I'm guessing the one I got was Wilmot. It was very mild. According to the website, Widmers (they have both mild and aged) is a washed rind. The one I had was clearly young, and it didn't have a ripened flavor.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #473 on: November 26, 2012, 05:42:16 PM »
My guess is that it is cheddar on the edge and mozzerella in the middle. Maybe some cheddar in the mozzerella. It was not too strong.

CL

Thanks Craig for telling me what the cheeses tasted like to you.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #474 on: November 26, 2012, 05:45:01 PM »
I hadnít received any email about Widmerís brick cheese today from using the Contact Us feature on their website, so when I got home from market I called Widners cheese.  I asked the lady that answered the phone if any retail stores in Pa. carry the Widmerís brick cheese.  I told her I owned a small pizza business and want to try the Widmerís brick cheese on the Detroit-style pizza I was working on.  The lady looked and said she doesnít think there are any retail stores in Pa. that carry any of the Widmerís brick cheese.  I asked the lady what are the kinds of brick cheeses they produce and she said they produce what is called Specialty Brick cheese which is mild.  The also carry what is called the traditional Widmerís brick cheese which is aged and has more of a tang.  The lady told me if I wanted to use the brick cheese on a pizza she would think I would use the Specialty brick cheese. 

I looked on the Widmerís website while I was talking to the lady and I guess this is what is called the Specialty Brick cheese in 5 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html  Widmerís also carries the same brick cheese in 1 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html and 2.5 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Half-Mild-Specialty-Brick-2.5-lb.html

I asked the lady if there are any places that sell the Widmerís brick cheese wholesale in Pa. and she said she didnít really know, but would transfer me to Mr. Widmerís voicemail.  I left a message on Mr. Widmerís voicemail.

Norma
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