Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 167597 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1920 on: May 16, 2013, 06:23:53 PM »
From many years of seasoning pans in commercial kitchens and at home, the oil doesn't matter nearly as much as the oven temp and the coating technique.  What temp is your oven?

I've been baking the oiled pans at 500 deg.

Gene


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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1921 on: May 16, 2013, 06:32:56 PM »
Norma,

I've been using 500 g flour, 350 g water (in other words, 70% hydration), a 7g package of Oekker instant yeast and 1 tsp salt.  I let it rise till doubled (about 1 hour).  For a small pie, I use 275 g of finished dough.  Put it in the pan and let it sit for 10 min. before spreading it across the pan.

One thing I did discover:  I had been combing all the ingredients in the bowl of my Kitchenaid and kneading 5 min, with the dough hook.  But the last couple of times, I used the flat beater first, for about 1 min., just to combine the ingredients, and then switched to the dough hook to knead for 5 min.  Don't ask me why, but the dough was much easier to spread across the pan.

Gene

Gene,

Good to hear you found a way you like to mix your DS dough. 

At home and at market I use the flat beater only, but then I do a rest period in between because my doughs are 75% hydration and I need to get the dough less sticky and develop the gluten okay.

Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1922 on: May 16, 2013, 08:56:48 PM »
I've been baking the oiled pans at 500 deg.
500F is hot enough, so if you're ending up with a sticky coating rather than a solid, smooth, carbon layer I think you're using too much oil and it's not burning off completely.

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1923 on: May 17, 2013, 08:59:05 AM »
A few more photos of the Detroit style pizzas.  I don't know why the one first pizza had some hills and valleys. 

Norma
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Offline Skee

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1924 on: May 17, 2013, 10:06:43 AM »
Getting some tasty-looking cheese edges and crispy bottom crusts, Norma!

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1925 on: May 17, 2013, 12:19:58 PM »
Getting some tasty-looking cheese edges and crispy bottom crusts, Norma!

Britt,

Thanks!

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1926 on: May 17, 2013, 11:12:29 PM »
Gene,

Good to hear you found a way you like to mix your DS dough. 

At home and at market I use the flat beater only, but then I do a rest period in between because my doughs are 75% hydration and I need to get the dough less sticky and develop the gluten okay.

Norma

Norma,

Using the flat beater for the whole process makes sense - but I'm too lazy to get the dough out from between the spaces in the beater...  :^)

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1927 on: May 17, 2013, 11:14:52 PM »
500F is hot enough, so if you're ending up with a sticky coating rather than a solid, smooth, carbon layer I think you're using too much oil and it's not burning off completely.

That's an interesting thought:  I've been laying on a relatively thick coat of butter flavored Crisco, to create "lubrication" between the cheese and the side of the pan.  I thought that if I used a thin coat or no coating at all, that the cheese would fuse to the bare metal.

But maybe I'm wrong?

Gene

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1928 on: May 17, 2013, 11:28:22 PM »
That's an interesting thought:  I've been laying on a relatively thick coat of butter flavored Crisco, to create "lubrication" between the cheese and the side of the pan.  I thought that if I used a thin coat or no coating at all, that the cheese would fuse to the bare metal.

But maybe I'm wrong?

Gene
Let it fuse and use a steel spatula to release....after a few pies it will be releasing much easier for you.

Bob
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1929 on: May 18, 2013, 07:19:01 AM »
Norma,

Using the flat beater for the whole process makes sense - but I'm too lazy to get the dough out from between the spaces in the beater...  :^)

Gene

Gene,

For me the dough is not hard to get off the flat beater.  Are you sure you are using the two sided flat beater?  Do you have your dough developed enough when mixing? 

That's an interesting thought:  I've been laying on a relatively thick coat of butter flavored Crisco, to create "lubrication" between the cheese and the side of the pan.  I thought that if I used a thin coat or no coating at all, that the cheese would fuse to the bare metal.

But maybe I'm wrong?

Gene


I think I mentioned before, and also other members did also post, that you just need to apply a thin coating of oil or shortening if your pans are seasoned enough.  The steel pans might need reseasoned at some point in time, but once the steel pans are seasoned enough that shouldn't be any major sticking issues with the cheese of the sides of the pan.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1930 on: May 23, 2013, 07:37:40 PM »
This pizza was dressed differently, but customers still wanted to try it.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1931 on: May 23, 2013, 08:03:37 PM »
I would briefly run a torch across the top for a 'lil pretty char spots.  :drool:
No sauce?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 08:09:25 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1932 on: May 23, 2013, 11:00:25 PM »
I would briefly run a torch across the top for a 'lil pretty char spots.  :drool:
No sauce?

Bob,

Lol, I don't think I want any char spots on a Detroit style pizza.  The sauce was the mayo, mustard and pepper that John posted over at the Mustard Pie thread.  I have to remember the Swiss cheese next week.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1933 on: May 27, 2013, 08:19:41 AM »
This is the recipe for Buddy's Chicken Fajita Pizza posted on the Cooking Channel from a link from Pizza Cuz http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/shows/pizza-cuz/recipes.html  http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-chicken-fajita-pizza.html and the Buddy's Cheese Pizza http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-cheese-pizza.html It says the recipes are courtesy of Buddy's Pizza, but I don't know what the recipe looks like in bakers percents for the dough. 

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1934 on: May 27, 2013, 11:09:12 AM »
This is the recipe for Buddy's Chicken Fajita Pizza posted on the Cooking Channel from a link from Pizza Cuz http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/shows/pizza-cuz/recipes.html  http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-chicken-fajita-pizza.html and the Buddy's Cheese Pizza http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-cheese-pizza.html It says the recipes are courtesy of Buddy's Pizza, but I don't know what the recipe looks like in bakers percents for the dough. 
Norma,

I saw those recipes recently and was surprised that no one mentioned them, especially the recipe for the dough. At the time, I did some calculations in my head and concluded that the nominal hydration value for the dough was very much on the high side--well over 80%. Also, the recipe said to add more flour (by the spoonful) to reduce any stickiness in the dough. Since the flour and water are given by volume measurements, I concluded that it would be difficult to calculate a precise hydration value for the dough.

However, since you asked about baker's percents, I decided this morning, as a Memorial Day gift to you, to try to come up with a baker's percent version of the dough recipe your referenced. To do this, I made a few assumptions. First, I assumed that a typical home pizza maker using the dough recipe would use the Medium method of Flour Measurement as embodied in the Mass-Volume Measurement Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, where the flour would be measured out by dipping the measuring cup into a bag or container of flour. Second, I assumed that the flour is a combination of bread flour and all-purpose flour (as the recipe instructions suggest) with a ratio of the two flours established to get us closer to the protein content of the flour that Buddy's uses. As an example, if you use a 50/50 blend (by weight) of King Arthur All-Purpose flour (KAAP) and King Arthur Bread flour (KABF), even though they are not bleached and bromated flours such as Buddy's uses, the protein content of the blend will be 12.2% (the same as the Occident flour). So, for 3 cups of flour as called for the dough recipe, for convenience you would use 1 1/2 cups of the KAAP and 1 1/2 cups of the KABF by volume measured out by the Medium flour Measurement method. Third, I assumed that a cup of water is 8 ounces, as is typically recited in recipes for non-professionals, such as a home baker, even though a cup of water technically weighs more than 8 ounces (it is 8.345 ounces although I often use 8.15 ounces for conversion purposes). Fourth, I assumed that the"fast acting yeast" is IDY even though the instructions for rehydrating the yeast are more applicable to ADY than to IDY (more on this below). Finally, I assumed that the salt is ordinary table salt.

Doing some math calculations and plugging everthing into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what we get:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (82.8558%):
IDY (1.70485%):
Salt (1.35935%):
Total (185.92%):
410.59 g  |  14.48 oz | 0.91 lbs
340.2 g  |  12 oz | 0.75 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
763.37 g | 26.93 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = N/A
* The Flour Blend is a 50/50 blend of KAAP and KABF; the dough is for two 8" x 10" pan pizzas, with each dough ball weighing 13.46 ounces; the corresponding thickness factor = 13.46/( 8 x 10) = 0.16829; no bowl residue compensation.

As mentioned above, the yeast is rehydrated in warm water. I believe that this rehydration method, along with using a lot of yeast, is to speed up the fermentation process. You will also note that the calculated thickness factor is considerably larger than what Buddy's is using. For example, if you were to use 13.46 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, and about 4.5 ounces of pizza sauce (the cheese pizza recipe is silent as to the amount of pizza sauce to use), the total weight of the unbaked pizza would be about 26 ounces for an 8" x 10" pan pizza. To get that pizza in the range of a baked 8" x 10" Buddy's cheese pizza, it would take a substantial weight loss during baking, more than would ever be achieved in Buddy's conveyor ovens or even in your ovens, at home or at market.

Should you decide to try the formulation recited above, you could use 3 cups of Occidental flour measured out volumetrically (or by weight if you prefer) and you could use less dough, much as you have been using to date to make an 8" x 10" pizza. I am reasonably confident you would end up with a credible Buddy's clone dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 11:42:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1935 on: May 27, 2013, 11:44:39 AM »
Norma,

I saw those recipes recently and was surprised that no one mentioned them, especially the recipe for the dough. At the time, I did some calculations in my head and concluded that the nominal hydration value for the dough was very much on the high side--well over 80%. Also, the recipe said to add more flour (by the spoonful) to reduce any stickiness in the dough. Since the flour and water are given by volume measurements, I concluded that it would be difficult to calculate a precise hydration value for the dough.

However, since you asked about baker's percents, I decided this morning, as a Memorial Day gift to you, to try to come up with a baker's percent version of the dough recipe your referenced. To do this, I made a few assumptions. First, I assumed that a typical home pizza maker using the dough recipe would use the Medium method of Flour Measurement as embodied in the Mass-Volume Measurement Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, where the flour would be measured out by dipping the measuring cup into a bag or container of flour. Second, I assumed that the flour is a combination of bread flour and all-purpose flour (as the recipe instructions suggest) with a ratio of the two flours established to get us closer to the protein content of the flour that Buddy's uses. As an example, if you use a 50/50 blend (by weight) of King Arthur All-Purpose flour (KAAP) and King Arthur Bread flour (KABF), even though they are not bleached and bromated flours such as Buddy's uses, the protein content of the blend will be 12.2% (the same as the Occident flour). So, for 3 cups of flour as called for the dough recipe, for convenience you would use 1 1/2 cups of the KAAP and 1 1/2 cups of the KABF by volume measured out by the Medium flour Measurement method. Third, I assumed that a cup of water is 8 ounces, as is typically recited in recipes for non-professionals, such as a home baker, even though a cup of water technically weighs more than 8 ounces (it is 8.345 ounces although I often use 8.15 ounces for conversion purposes). Fourth, I assumed that the"fast acting yeast" is IDY even though the instructions for rehydrating the yeast are more applicable to ADY than to IDY (more on this below). Finally, I assumed that the salt is ordinary table salt.

Doing some math calculations and plugging everthing into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what we get:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (82.8558%):
IDY (1.70485%):
Salt (1.35935%):
Total (185.92%):
410.59 g  |  14.48 oz | 0.91 lbs
340.2 g  |  12 oz | 0.75 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
763.37 g | 26.93 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = N/A
* The Flour Blend is a 50/50 blend of KAAP and KABF; the dough is for two 8" x 10" pan pizzas, with each dough ball weighing 13.46 ounces; the corresponding thickness factor = 13.46/( 8 x 10) = 0.16829; no bowl residue compensation.

As mentioned above, the yeast is rehydrated in warm water. I believe that this rehydration method, along with using a lot of yeast, is to speed up the fermentation process. You will also note that the calculated thickness factor is considerably larger than what Buddy's is using. For example, if you were to use 13.46 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, and about 4.5 ounces of pizza sauce (the cheese pizza recipe is silent as to the amount of pizza sauce to use), the total weight of the unbaked pizza would be about 26 ounces for an 8" x 10" pan pizza. To get that pizza in the range of a baked 8" x 10" Buddy's cheese pizza, it would take a substantial weight loss during baking, more than would ever be achieved in Buddy's conveyor ovens or even in your ovens, at home or at market.

Should you decide to try the formulation recited above, you could use 3 cups of Occidental flour measured out volumetrically (or by weight if you prefer) and you could use less dough, much as you have been using to date to make an 8" x 10" pizza. I am reasonably confident you would end up with a credible Buddy's clone dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the nice Memorial Day gift to me in figuring out what the baker's percent version of the dough recipe courtesy of Buddy's Pizza.   :-*  I see the hydration is really high since you did the calculations.  Interesting to know that using 50/50 blend of KAAP and KABF would be 12.2% the same as the Occident flour.  I wonder since you assumed that the fast acting yeast is IDY how many home pizza makers have access to that yeast.  At least in my local supermarkets all that is offered if ADY, or fast acting pizza yeast.  I can see that the salt would be regular table salt.  The yeast amount is not that far off from my amount of yeast I used now.  The salt level is lower than I use now though. 

I don't see how inexperienced pizza makers could work with that high hydration though, unless they would add more flour as stated. 

I see the TF is larger than I am using, but will be interested in seeing how that pizza would turn out.  I wonder how many home pizza makers will try that recipe out and what kind of results they will get.

I will try the formulation you set forth as soon as I find time.  I was really interested in seeing what the baker's percent were, but didn't want you to have to do more calculations.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1936 on: May 27, 2013, 12:03:35 PM »
I wonder since you assumed that the fast acting yeast is IDY how many home pizza makers have access to that yeast.  At least in my local supermarkets all that is offered if ADY, or fast acting pizza yeast.
Norma,

A couple of brands of "fast acting" yeasts that are commonly sold in supermarkets are the Fleischmann's RapidRise yeast (http://www.breadworld.com/products.aspx) and the Red Star QuickRise yeast (http://www.redstaryeast.com/products/red-star%C2%AE/red-star%C2%AE-quick-rise-yeast). They are both instant dry yeasts. Yeast products that are sold as bread machine yeasts--usually in small jars--are also instant dry yeasts, even though they may not be identified as such.

I think that ADY can also be used in the formulation I posted, perhaps without having to make any other changes given the large amount used.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 12:07:05 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1937 on: May 27, 2013, 06:06:45 PM »
Norma,

A couple of brands of "fast acting" yeasts that are commonly sold in supermarkets are the Fleischmann's RapidRise yeast (http://www.breadworld.com/products.aspx) and the Red Star QuickRise yeast (http://www.redstaryeast.com/products/red-star%C2%AE/red-star%C2%AE-quick-rise-yeast). They are both instant dry yeasts. Yeast products that are sold as bread machine yeasts--usually in small jars--are also instant dry yeasts, even though they may not be identified as such.

I think that ADY can also be used in the formulation I posted, perhaps without having to make any other changes given the large amount used.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't realize that Fleischmann's RapidRise yeast and Red Star QuickRise yeast were regular IDY's.  I thought they were quicker acting than regular IDY.  I learned something new today, thanks.

Norma
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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1938 on: May 27, 2013, 07:12:23 PM »
I didn't realize that Fleischmann's RapidRise yeast and Red Star QuickRise yeast were regular IDY's.  I thought they were quicker acting than regular IDY.  I learned something new today, thanks.
Norma,

Yeast is a highly complicated subject, both technologically and in practice. There are many different strains of yeast, each with its own DNA so to speak and with its own favored applications, and its specific forms and uses in home settings can be different than its forms and uses in professional applications. I think you will get a better feel for what I am saying by reading Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg164500/topicseen.html#msg164500, including the article on yeast referenced in Reply 21, and Reply 53 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5379.msg47676/topicseen.html#msg47676.

My practice is to find a yeast I like and stick with it for all of my dough preparations even though there may be some variations from one brand or type of yeast to another. I suspect that the variations from one brand to another are slight, especially at the retail level, but for consistency purposes, or unless I am following a recipe that calls for a particular type or brand of yeast, I choose to use only a single type or brand. This is especially true when conducting multiple experiments with a particular dough formulation where I do not want to introduce new variables from one experiment to another such as yeast type or brand.

Peter

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #1939 on: May 27, 2013, 08:57:10 PM »
Norma,

Yeast is a highly complicated subject, both technologically and in practice. There are many different strains of yeast, each with its own DNA so to speak and with its own favored applications, and its specific forms and uses in home settings can be different than its forms and uses in professional applications. I think you will get a better feel for what I am saying by reading Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16775.msg164500/topicseen.html#msg164500, including the article on yeast referenced in Reply 21, and Reply 53 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5379.msg47676/topicseen.html#msg47676.

My practice is to find a yeast I like and stick with it for all of my dough preparations even though there may be some variations from one brand or type of yeast to another. I suspect that the variations from one brand to another are slight, especially at the retail level, but for consistency purposes, or unless I am following a recipe that calls for a particular type or brand of yeast, I choose to use only a single type or brand. This is especially true when conducting multiple experiments with a particular dough formulation where I do not want to introduce new variables from one experiment to another such as yeast type or brand.

Peter

Peter,

I see that yeast is a highly complicated subject.  I knew yeast was complicated, but didn't know how complicated it can be.  I see in your reply at #21 that you still aren't completely certain whether yeasts that are sold to professionals are like retail yeasts.  I also read what you posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8912.0.html  That article gets really complicated in me being able to understand it.  I found your reply to sourdough girl interesting too. 

I know I was confused about the yeasts I had saw at my local supermarkets and really don't understand all about them yet.  I can see why you use the same yeast product, unless a specific recipe calls for another yeast product or experimentation is being done with a different type of yeast.

I just want to mention that last week when I made the doughs for boardwalk pizza and the Detroit style doughs I had just opened a new bag of IDY.  It also became much hotter and more humid at market.  The next day after I had made my doughs I sure was surprised how much the dough balls had risen when I got to market.  Both of my types of dough balls (in the deli case and in the pizza prep fridge both) did the same thing.  I told Steve I wasn't sure if it was the flour (it was kind of lumpy and was opened from the week before and might have attracted humidity) but both doughs did feel more sticky than usual and then the dough balls were really big the next day.  I had about the same final dough temperatures.  I never saw that before when opening a new bag of yeast, but was kind of puzzled of what happened.  At least I could use types both dough balls okay to make pizzas.  I did post a photo of the one boardwalk dough ball at Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25192.msg255288.html#msg255288 third photo down in that post.  That is how all of my dough balls looked last week.   :-D

Norma 
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