Author Topic: Convert finished dough into a poolish?  (Read 2812 times)

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Offline AJ72

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Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« on: October 19, 2012, 11:05:07 AM »
Hey guys,
I saw an old thread where Jeff Varasano converted an original Patsy's doughball into his famous poolish.  I was thinking of doing the same thing by going to my favorite pizzeria and purchasing a doughball and converting it into a battery poolish.  The only problem is I would have no idea how to start.  It would seem simple since the dough and poolish have the same ingredients of flour and water.  I'm assuming it would require adding water to the doughball to break it down.  Has anybody done this before?  I tried google and nothing came up.  Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Tony


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 11:35:54 AM »
Unless the pizzeria in question is telling you that they use a natural culture, it's almost a certainty that they are using baker's yeast (ADY, IDY, or CY), so it is very likely the culture you end up with will be one you could create simply with yeast from the grocery store.

There is no "right way" to create a culture from a dough ball. You are just using the dough to inoculate a flour-water mixture.

I would let the dough ball rise up until it starts to fall (keep it covered so it doesn't dry out - mist it if you need to). That should give you peak yeast activity. I would then mix equal parts by weight of flour and water - maybe 150g of each, cut up 50g or so of the dough into little pieces and mix it in until everything is relatively smooth. Feed it equal parts of flour and water every couple days.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 11:48:22 AM »
Thanks Craig,
So are you saying if I use 150g of each flour and water then 50g of the dough is all that's required?  Thanks...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 12:08:52 PM »
Thanks Craig,
So are you saying if I use 150g of each flour and water then 50g of the dough is all that's required?  Thanks...

Yes, I see no reason why that won't work just fine. Let the dough ball ferment some first as I discussed above and be sure to mix it all together well.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 12:36:54 PM »
AJ72,

You might take a look at the thread (and embedded links) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7398.msg63767.html#msg63767.

After the above threads were posted, another member attempted to take a naturally leavened dough that Pete Taylor gave him and to try to culture his dough with Pete's dough. Unfortunately, I could not find the thread where his efforts were reported.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 01:18:09 PM »

After the above threads were posted, another member attempted to take a naturally leavened dough that Pete Taylor gave him and to try to culture his dough with Pete's dough. Unfortunately, I could not find the thread where his efforts were reported.

Peter

Peter,

Is this the thread that StrayBullet (Mark) talked about Peter Taylorís dough with one post being at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12025.msg112714.html#msg112714  You also answered in that thread.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 03:21:16 PM »
Peter,

Is this the thread that StrayBullet (Mark) talked about Peter Taylorís dough with one post being at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12025.msg112714.html#msg112714  You also answered in that thread.

Norma

Norma,

That's it. Thank you.

I actually thought that it was Mark who has started the thread, and I did look through all of his posts, but I somehow missed the thread he started on the subject. I may need to recalibrate my eyeballs. Not to be deterred, I planned to look at Mark's posts again when I returned from shopping this afternoon, but you beat me to it.

Thanks again.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 03:35:49 PM »
We are at risk of making this appear much more complicated than it is. This is simple. There is nothing to it.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 04:48:31 PM »
Ok but now I'm confused as to how much poolish to use.  Verasano's formula says 9% by weight but on this page he says 40% by weight. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,796.20.html

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 05:01:53 PM »
Ok but now I'm confused as to how much poolish to use.  Verasano's formula says 9% by weight but on this page he says 40% by weight. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,796.20.html

Really it doesn't matter, because the leavening ability of what ever you grow could be easily different than what he had, or what I have and so on.  Your either going to want to start with a known starter/poolish or just wing it until your satisfied.
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Offline AJ72

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 05:04:45 PM »
Well I just broke down and purchased the Ischia and camaldoli italian starters from sourdo.com so I will try those instead.  So now I need to know how much to use since it will be my first time using a culture.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »
Ok but now I'm confused as to how much poolish to use.  Verasano's formula says 9% by weight but on this page he says 40% by weight. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,796.20.html

AJ72,

I believe that you are referring to Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,796.msg7437.html#msg7437. It is true that at one time Jeff said that he used 40% but, in the course of the Patsy's reverse engineering thread, he substantially reduced that percent to around 9%, as I noted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7608.msg67353/topicseen.html#msg67353. So, the number you want to use if you plan on replicating what Jeff did is the 9% number.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 05:20:03 PM »
With sourdough ("SD") there are really no recipes - only guidelines. There are so many variables, it is likely you will need to make several (probably many) rounds of changes and adjustments regardless of where you start. It will require experimentation to figure out what works for you. Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

Some of the variables that you will have to balance with your starter%:

Style of pizza
Type of oven
Oven temperature
Fermentation temperature
Desired fermentation time
Type of flour
Hydration
Amount of salt
Culture activity
etc.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2012, 05:21:30 PM »
AJ72,

I believe that you are referring to Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,796.msg7437.html#msg7437. It is true that at one time Jeff said that he used 40% but, in the course of the Patsy's reverse engineering thread, he substantially reduced that percent to around 9%, as I noted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7608.msg67353/topicseen.html#msg67353. So, the number you want to use if you plan on replicating what Jeff did is the 9% number.

Peter

This is a perfect example of just how much things can vary - Jeff used 9% (and some baker's yeast as well if I remember correctly). I use ~1.4%

40% active Ischia culture would dissolve your dough. Pretty much anything over 25% will.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 05:22:50 PM »
Thanks Pete!  So one final question.....I spoke with Amberlie at sourdo.com about using additional yeast as Jeff shows in his recipe but she said absolutely not!  She said that would defeat the purpose of using a culture.  Although Jeff shows yeast as an "optional" ingredient he does use it himself in his recipe.  It does seem contradictory to use yeast and a culture in the same recipe.  What do you guys think about this?

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 05:23:21 PM »
Well I just broke down and purchased the Ischia and camaldoli italian starters from sourdo.com so I will try those instead.  So now I need to know how much to use since it will be my first time using a culture.

Oh, it also depends on the proofing and fermentation schedule/ temperature; and the type of flour you are using. What temps do you plan on baking at?  Gas or electric? Stone, steel or screen?
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 05:23:51 PM »
Thanks Pete!  So one final question.....I spoke with Amberlie at sourdo.com about using additional yeast as Jeff shows in his recipe but she said absolutely not!  She said that would defeat the purpose of using a culture.  Although Pete shows yeast as an "optional" ingredient he does use it himself in his recipe.  It does seem contradictory to use yeast and a culture in the same recipe.  What do you guys think about this?

It is completely unnecessary. It's a belt-and-suspenders approach. Trust your culture.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline AJ72

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2012, 05:25:42 PM »
I will be using a 500 degree electric oven with a fibrament-D stone on the bottom rack.  I will also be using All-Trumps flour and Varasano's recipe.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 05:27:54 PM »
I can't wait to see the results...
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Convert finished dough into a poolish?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2012, 06:00:12 PM »
This is a perfect example of just how much things can vary - Jeff used 9% (and some baker's yeast as well if I remember correctly). I use ~1.4%

40% active Ischia culture would dissolve your dough. Pretty much anything over 25% will.

Craig,

Jeff eventually came to understand and appreciate the distinction between using preferment levels of leavening agents and the much lower levels that Marco suggested. See, for example, Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg14804/topicseen.html#msg14804.

Peter


 

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