Author Topic: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution  (Read 3911 times)

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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2012, 11:13:08 AM »
I never took it as nagging, it just couldn't visualize the benefit. But, I see the light now.
Bert,


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2012, 11:16:45 AM »
What Bert is discussing is not a "seasoning" process as we would discuss for metal - a coating of polymerized fat and oil on the surface. Rather the process he is discussing is essentially leaving a layer of charcoal on the surface of the stone. The charcoal will begin to burn off with temperatures as low as 660F.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2012, 11:39:28 AM »
Good clarification and follow-up questions, Ryan.

I use cast iron because of its heat absorption and emission characteristics.  A properly seasoned 100 year old cast iron pan is superior IMO to almost anything on the market on these days.  Its heavy weight and thermal mass make precision cooking easier, while its high transfer rate allow you to do things other pans can't do.  Like sear a steak and bake a cake.  Roast a chicken, deep-fry some shrimp, make stuffed peppers on the grill - even deep dish pizza.  I saved that one for last, because once you try a cast-iron deepdish pizza, you'll toss your lightweight pans.

   As for what unseasoned cast iron looks like, just find something rusty and look at it.  If you use your cast iron every day, it will be midnight black and perfect, and stay that way.  
   You treasure cookware like this, and try to pass it on to someone who will use it well.  That's why I have a bunch of them - they are all inherited from past cooks in the family.  You sure can't say that about any of the crap on the market these days.

BTW, when I cook steak in the LBE, I preheat the skillet to 800-850 degrees.  
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2012, 11:43:44 AM »
My goal is to create a uniform radiant heat across the surface and increase radiant heat. There is a commercial coating that do this, I will try that option too. I am not sure if it will make a noticible difference.
Bert,

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 11:56:53 AM »
What Bert is discussing is not a "seasoning" process as we would discuss for metal - a coating of polymerized fat and oil on the surface. Rather the process he is discussing is essentially leaving a layer of charcoal on the surface of the stone. The charcoal will begin to burn off with temperatures as low as 660F.

Yeah, but it seems to me like it's essentially the same idea. Or rather that it's the application of a slightly different medium to achieve essentially the same result (i.e., darkening the surface to attract heat), which is why I likened it to seasoning a pan. Or am I missing something (which I admit may be happening here)?

To me it seems like the major difference is that a stone has a lot more thermal mass than a pizza pan. So naturally it takes a lot longer to get the stone hot enough to vaporize the charcoal layer off of it, compared to the time it takes to vaporize the seasoning on a pizza pan.

Am I just totally not getting the point of what Bert's doing here? Cuz I thought I understood his objective, but now I'm not sure.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2012, 12:05:08 PM »
My goal is to create a uniform radiant heat across the surface and increase radiant heat. There is a commercial coating that do this, I will try that option too. I am not sure if it will make a noticible difference.

Website link?  I'm curious about the coating you have in mind.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2012, 12:43:27 PM »
Yeah, but it seems to me like it's essentially the same idea. Or rather that it's the application of a slightly different medium to achieve essentially the same result (i.e., darkening the surface to attract heat), which is why I likened it to seasoning a pan. Or am I missing something (which I admit may be happening here)?

To me it seems like the major difference is that a stone has a lot more thermal mass than a pizza pan. So naturally it takes a lot longer to get the stone hot enough to vaporize the charcoal layer off of it, compared to the time it takes to vaporize the seasoning on a pizza pan.

Am I just totally not getting the point of what Bert's doing here? Cuz I thought I understood his objective, but now I'm not sure.

I think you understand Bertís objective, but you might be confused on why metal pans (cast iron in particular) are seasoned. Seasoning a metal pan has nothing to do with heating or emissivity. Itís done to protect iron from rusting and to make the metal more non-stick.

The thermal oxidation and polymerization of oil is a completely different (and much more complex) process than the carbonization of sugar.  While what is left on Bertís stone will be mostly elemental carbon, what is left on a seasoned pan is a complex polymer.

ďVaporizeĒ is also not the right word. Carbon vaporizes at about 3,900K, so clearly that is not what is happening. The charcoal residue on the stone will actually burn off when it gets hot enough Ė starting at about 349C/660F. Again, it is a much more complex chain of reactions that is required to burn off the seasoning on a metal pan.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 12:44:35 PM »
I saved that one for last, because once you try a cast-iron deepdish pizza, you'll toss your lightweight pans.

OK, this means you are now required to start a thread about your cast iron deep dish pizzas in the Chicago section. And you have to post lots of pictures, because deep dish has been my most recent obsession. I've made deep dish every day for at least the last month, and I even went out of my way to buy some tin-plated steel American Metalcraft deep dish pans. With all this practice and obsessive analysis, the deep dish pizzas I've been making lately are really damn good.

So I wish you had been able to bring this to my attention a couple days ago, because I just finished up a can of Stanislaus Saporito tomato strips yesterday, which means I'm gonna take a break from deep dish for a while. (By the way, these tomato strips are perfect for deep dish, straight out of the can.) Also, even though I don't use cast iron pans, there are cast iron pans in this house.

I'm actually drafting a blog post right now, which will share the secrets of my best-yet deep dish formula and procedures. This post will contain around 50 pics, depicting almost every step of how I've been doing it, as well as pics of alternative ways of doing certain things.

Offline SquirrelFlight

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 12:48:32 PM »
OK, this means you are now required to start a thread about your cast iron deep dish pizzas in the Chicago section.


This is the thread that brought me to pizzamaking.com: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2047.msg18031.html#msg18031

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 12:49:08 PM »
I think you understand Bertís objective, but you might be confused on why metal pans (cast iron in particular) are seasoned. Seasoning a metal pan has nothing to do with heating or emissivity. Itís done to protect iron from rusting and to make the metal more non-stick.

I probably painted with too broad a brush here. I was thinking of cast iron pans. Maybe with pizza pans, there is a heating-related reason for them to be dark, but this was not the point of the post.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2012, 01:16:08 PM »
I think you understand Bertís objective, but you might be confused on why metal pans (cast iron in particular) are seasoned. Seasoning a metal pan has nothing to do with heating or emissivity. Itís done to protect iron from rusting and to make the metal more non-stick.

Actually, I knew I didn't know why people season cast iron. Now I know, I think. At least, I buy part of your explanation (protection from rust).

However, I don't agree that the concept of seasoning most pizza pans has anything to do with either 1) preventing rust, or particularly 2) creating a non-stick surface. I was already skeptical about the non-stick explanation, but then one of the pizzas I made in a beautifully-seasoned pan stuck horribly, even though I had oiled the pan heavily; even though I had never encountered that problem with my older aluminum pan, which has lost a considerable amount of its seasoning.

But maybe you meant specifically "iron" or "cast iron" rather than "metal."

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2012, 01:24:02 PM »
Website link?  I'm curious about the coating you have in mind.

Checkout aremco.com / protective coating link.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 01:27:02 PM by MightyPizzaOven »
Bert,

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2012, 01:30:18 PM »
Actually, I knew I didn't know why people season cast iron. Now I know, I think. At least, I buy part of your explanation (protection from rust).

However, I don't agree that the concept of seasoning most pizza pans has anything to do with either 1) preventing rust, or particularly 2) creating a non-stick surface. I was already skeptical about the non-stick explanation, but then one of the pizzas I made in a beautifully-seasoned pan stuck horribly, even though I had oiled the pan heavily; even though I had never encountered that problem with my older aluminum pan, which has lost a considerable amount of its seasoning.

But maybe you meant specifically "iron" or "cast iron" rather than "metal."

You're right, as I commented two posts up, I was thinking about cooking pot and pans - not pizza pans when I made the statement about seasoning for rust protection and non-stick characteristics.

In any case, my post was about the difference between the charcoal left behind by carbonized sugar and the polymer left behind when seasoning with oil or fat and the fact that neither vaporizes during cooking conditions.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 01:33:09 PM »
Yeah, I didn't see that until after I posted. We cool.

Offline Bugsforbob

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 07:16:06 PM »
I'm enjoying reading all the posts. Here's something else to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 09:12:50 PM »
Doug, Thanks for the link.
Bert,

Offline Bugsforbob

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2012, 05:53:08 PM »
Just a thought... Are the coatings at aremco.com considered food grade? Where are they being considered for application? Cooking surfaces or WFO domes? They look rather industrial.

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2012, 07:44:43 PM »
Food safety certification would not be an objective for this and many other ceramic product makers. Most people really don't understand what an organization such as NSF does or doesn't do. Read more here:

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/84/NSF-Certification


Just a thought... Are the coatings at aremco.com considered food grade? Where are they being considered for application? Cooking surfaces or WFO domes? They look rather industrial.

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2012, 06:29:15 AM »
I don't know if aremco coating was ever used in food related product. If I use it, I will use it to coat top stone only, it will not have contact with food. I am not sure how much improvement this coating will provide for temperature 500 to 1000 F. This is something I will keep on back burner, to experiment with one one day, I can't justify the cost right now.

I will definitely  try the sugar coating next week, I will report back.

Don, thank you for sharing that link.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 06:32:58 AM by MightyPizzaOven »
Bert,

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: Coating Pizza Stone with sugar water solution
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2012, 01:37:10 PM »
I tried coating my top stone with sugar solution on the grill, minor color change occurred. Than I baked the stone in my home oven at 550 for about an hour... I got darker shade with a house full of smoke. I couldn't tell if the coating made any difference in baking. I tried different setup this weekend that utilized my grill burners more efficiently.  see my post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21675.new.html#new
Bert,


 

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