Author Topic: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?  (Read 6037 times)

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Offline snowdy

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is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« on: December 14, 2005, 12:34:31 AM »
Im making pizza friday and the only time i have to make the dough is today (tuesday).
is 3 days too long?

Thanks!


Offline chiguy

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2005, 01:20:03 AM »
 Hello snowdy,
  I can say if you are follwing a true retarded dough procedure, 12-72 hours should not be a problem. This is 0.25-1.00 IDY with a finish dough temp between 72-84F. I know there are members who may go over 72 hours with a retarded dough, but it is not recommended.  When holding dough past 72 hours you will likley have to alter the formula as well as procedures. They may use  colder water for low finished dough temps,smaller yeast amounts and possibly added sugar. If you are taking the dough out after 72 hours you may also have a shorter bench time. This means it cannot handle a long extended period out on the counter. All these times are relative to the formula and procedure, as well as refridgerator temp and room temp. But it all adds up, it's just hard to say when exactly.
                                                                                                      Goodluck, Chiguy   

Offline canadave

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2005, 01:34:08 AM »
snowdy,

If you check my recipe (I posted it in a thread on this board), you'll see that it calls for a 4-6 day rise ideally.  The six-day rise has never been a problem for me, and in fact I don't think there would be a problem with a 7 day, 8 day, or maybe even longer rise.  Obviously two weeks would probably be stretching it :)  But three days?  Piece of cake.

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2005, 10:34:43 AM »
I have been making a dough in accordance with Dave's NY style dough recipe. At the moment, the dough is about 65 hours old. My plan is to go for at least 4 days. I know that Dave has indicated even longer times are possible and I also recall that varasano has reported in the past using doughs that are even older (although he says that 3-4 days is more typical). So, there is some precedent for long fermentation times under refrigeration.

The photo below shows the Canadave dough after 65 hours. The bubbles in the photo usually indicate either too much yeast or overfermentation. If I had to guess between the two, I would point a finger at the yeast. I typically use 0.25% or less (IDY), by weight of flour, for my typical Lehmann NY style doughs. By my calculation, Dave's recipe calls for about 0.76% IDY. In making Dave's dough, I also used fairly cold water and achieved a finished dough temperature of under 70 degrees F, which is quite a bit below the 80 degrees F finished dough temperature I usually shoot for. My refrigerator compartment has also been on the cool side, and was a bit over 39 degrees F this morning. So, these numbers don't suggest overfermentation. I won't know for sure, of course, until I am ready to use the dough. If it's the yeast, then it's possible that I will still achieve good results because any excess yeast will simply die off once the dough reaches 140 degress F in the oven.

Peter

Offline canadave

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 02:12:28 PM »
FWIW, Pete, your dough looks pretty much how mine looks when I make mine.  The bubbles just get flattened out at the end when you empty the dough onto the peel and punch it down ;)

Dave

Offline canadave

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2005, 02:14:43 PM »
Incidentally, if you (or anyone else) really thinks their dough is fermenting too much, a little less yeast could probably be used without a problem.  I think I once did a dough that was exactly the same except it had only 2 tsp of yeast, as opposed to 2 1/2, and it came out indistinguishable from the 2 1/2 model.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2005, 02:48:53 PM »
One of the advantages of making a few dough balls for use at home is that you don't have to worry or care much about how the dough balls look or behave. In a professional setting, pizza operators prefer to have their cold fermented dough balls rise as little as possible so that they don't take up too much real estate in their dough boxes and they don't expand and spread out too much and possibly run into each other. It's also easier and faster to cool dough balls down in the cooler that have not risen too much and started to act like insulators. That said, however, it has occurred to me that if a dough intended for commercial applications is subject to to many constraints to accommodate such applications, it may well be possible to make a better dough at home where such constaints are not present. 

Peter

Offline lilbuddypizza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2006, 09:24:54 AM »
I just used dough last month that I had in the fridge for 3-4 days. While it smell sour, it tasted "normal".

Offline elsegundo

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2006, 01:00:12 AM »
lilbuddypizza,
You have stumbled over the dilemma of sourdough. While purists may not consider pizza dough to be sourdough, if fact you are applying the same principle that the yeast is still slowly working and the dough is becoming more sour. At a point the yeast can be pretty well exhausted. All this depends on how much yeast, sugar, how cold how long.  If you compensate the yeast too much, you may get an off flavor.

I make a lot of bread and sourdough is the ultimate challenge.

Do you want the sour flavor? If so a three day refrigeration may be ideal.

Another factor which is rarely mentioned, some people let their dough rest after making for a couple of hours before refrigerating.  This will change the product that is being refrigerated. 

The Baker's Apprentice covers a lot of the science involved. It is a fascinating read to see the yeast, starch, bacteria, enzyme details.

You may be on your way to your greatest pizza.


Offline sebdesn

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2006, 01:50:49 PM »
elsegundo...
Re your s/d comments; I made my first naturally levaned pizza the other day.
I used the three stage French levain method and was surprised how well it came out... used a bit bigger ball than needed  but all in all was good...I also bake bread alot, and you are right ,the s/d is a real learning exp.
Bud


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2006, 01:53:18 PM »
Bud,

What are the three stages of the French levain method?

Peter

Offline sebdesn

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2006, 07:57:17 PM »
Pete,
The 3 stage French levain is a method that was in Dan Wings book The Bread Builders. It is from Calvel....
He starts out with 1kg of starter for two hours to make 8kg total. Then that 8kg for 8 hours to make 18kg then that 18kg for 2hrs to make 42kg that goes into the final mix of 168kg total, formed and risen for 3 to 5 hrs, then baked.
You can adjust the hydration as you go along to what ever you want..
   I started at 100% then 80% then 76% and 67%...instead of the form and final rise of 3 to 5 hrs I didnt do the form till 2 hrs into the final rise and topped and baked it.
  I use this method for my naturally levaned bread as well.
If you are interested there is an excel spread sheet to calculate it that Mike Avery has done.

Bud
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2006, 08:48:24 PM »
Bud,

Thank you very much for the explanation. I would assume that the steps have to be timed carefully and the temperatures carefully maintained to keep the proper balance between the acetic and lactic acids. Is that so? Also, can you tell me what the characteristics of the final dough/crust are, in terms of the rise in the dough, oven spring, the crumb, color and taste? I assume you scaled down the amounts considerably so that you wouldn't have a lot of dough left over.

It certainly is an interesting approach.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2006, 03:52:39 AM »
It certainly is an interesting book as well.  Half of the book is about starter cultures/bread baking and the other half is plans for building a wood burning oven.  unfortunately for us pizza makers this oven would not be ideal, as it is more of a bread oven.  This book is still a must read for anyone remotely interested in starter cultures or bread making.

Offline sebdesn

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2006, 12:17:35 PM »
Since there may be some interest in the 3 stage method, here is a link to a Mike Averys site  on 3 stage and in there is a link to an excel spread sheet calculator  that I use ...It works well, in that you can change batch sizes and hydrations at will...

   http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html
 
Pete, Re temps,,,if you keep them 70-75f or so you will not get the increasing acedic acid levels...

Bud

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2006, 01:14:33 PM »
Thanks, Bud. I am goiing to put this one on my pizza "to do" list.

Peter

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: is a 3 day refridgerator rise okay?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2006, 10:16:54 PM »
Hi Bud,

I'm glad you posted that website link,, I'm finding it very very interesting.  I tried making sourdough last year
and had so-so success with it, and then gave up.... so I am going to try again in the near future.

Thanks again.

Mark.


   http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html
 
Bud
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


 

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