Author Topic: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour  (Read 4719 times)

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Offline pietradoro

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Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« on: December 16, 2005, 11:28:37 AM »
Just received some of these 5lb re-packed bags and the Pennmac labels included in the bags do not say "Pizzeria."  It does say: "farino di grano tenero," which is written on the front of all the Caputo flours, except "Pizzeria."  My inference was that they sent me their "Extra Blue," and not "Pizzeria," which is easy to get locally in 1 kilo bags and does not require re-packing.  (I already have the extra blue and wanted to compare with the Pizzeria.)  I spoke to both the owner and customer service, and both insist they only sell the "Pizzeria," and cannot explain why the labels read "farino di grano tenero (and not "Pizzeria"), when the 50lb bag does not say that.  I spoke to the person who actually writes the labels and she said her Italian friend told her what to write and took it off the 50lb bag.  Makes me suspicious that they do not know what they actually have and are calling another 00 flour "Pizzeria" flour.  (If anyone has seen the 50lb Pizzeria flour they will know that the word Pizzeria is written in gigantic letters.)  Anyone have these re-packed bags with Pennmac labels that read "farino di grano tenero?  Or do yours read "Pizzeria."
« Last Edit: December 16, 2005, 11:31:12 AM by pietradoro »


Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 12:09:51 PM »
I can tell you for sure , that the mistake is simply on behalf of the employee who made the label. They might have done it intentionally to avoid confusing it with their 5 lb bag of high gluten flour that they refer to as "pizza flour". Regardless of any of the numerous possibilities on labeling mistakes , Penn Mac absolutely only carries one caputo flour and it is pizzeria flour. Hope this will help you believe in the pizzas you make and sleep at night!

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 12:14:59 PM »
ilpizzaiolo,

Thanks for the encouraging words  ;D    Just curious to know how you know "for sure"  :-\

Offline scott r

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 02:15:36 PM »
Ilpizzaiolo owns a first rate Neapolitan pizzeria and buys his Caputo from Penn Mac.   When he says that Penn Mac only caries the Caputo pizzeria I would definitely believe him as he probably talks to them on a weekly basis to order his Caputo/tomatoes/etc.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 04:57:50 PM »
pietradoro,

I was as anxious as you to find the answer to the question you posed in your earlier post since I have been telling everyone that it is the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour that is being repackaged. So, when I read your post this morning I sent an email to the importer, with whom I am personally familiar. I received a reply this afternoon that it is indeed the Pizzeria flour that PennMac is repackaging. It is the only Caputo 00 flour being sold to PennMac. So, this confirms what ilpizzaiolo told you earlier today.

Peter

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 05:35:31 PM »
scott r & Pete-zza:

Many thanks for providing definitive infomation :)

Now onto comparing the real differences between the "Extra Blue" and the "Pizzeria."

FWIW, according to Forno Bravo, the Caputo mill, when the question was put to them, didn't give much credence to any significant differences between the two , except possibly for anything other than professional pizza competitions. 

Offline freshflour

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 11:47:04 PM »
I put my order in this evening.  I'm looking forward to trying this flour.  I'm sure I'll have to adjust my recipe somewhat.  Last week I had less success than usual with a KA Italian Style flour.  I used 61% hydration, 1.5% salt, 1% olive oil, .25% IDY.  Overall, it was too wet and came apart when stretching.  Are you finding tha you're using a lower hydration and/or longer kneading times with the low-protien 00 flours?  I suspect the oil also hinders cohesiveness for this style of flour.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2005, 12:42:47 AM »
freshflour,

It's hard to generalize with 00 flours since there are many variations among the different brands. However, it is generally true that lower protein flours, and especially finely milled ones like most of the 00 flours, have lower absorption rates (hydration). The King Arthur Italian style flour is not an Italian 00 flour. It is a clone, and it has only 8.5% protein. By contrast, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has 11.5-12.5% protein. Most other brands, like the BelAria and the Delverde, have around 10% as best I can determine. Flours like the 00 flours, as well as other low protein flours like cake flour and pastry flour, will have absorption rates in the 50+%. All-purpose and bread flours can range from about 58-62% typically, and high-gluten flours like the KASL can range from 60-65% for pizza dough, and even higher if desired. Longer knead times are usually associated with the low gluten flours like many of the 00 flours because it takes longer to develop what little gluten there is in such flours.

The presence of oil actually helps the dough from an extensibility standpoint. The oil coats the gluten strands to that they glide over each other and create a smoothness in the dough. That makes it easier to stretch and shape the dough.

Peter

Offline freshflour

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2005, 09:48:36 AM »
Wow!  You're a wealth of information, Pete.  Thanks!

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2005, 10:22:34 AM »
BTW, the Caputo "Extra Blue" is 9.5% protein.  It is reported on these boards that the Caputo "Pizzeria" is 11.5% -12.5%.  The Bel Aria is a real puzzler, because the protein % seems unlikely (they do not indicate the protein percentage, but do indicate carbohydrates and fat, etc.): at 140g per serving and 4g of protein the percentage would translate to just under 3%, which seems strange.  I suspect their nutritional content is inaccurate.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 10:24:19 AM by pietradoro »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 10:39:58 AM »
pietradoro,

I have never been able to get accurate protein content numbers on the BelAria, and it was clear that their labeling information couldn't possibly be right. Even the importer of that flour could not give me the answer. The number I recited came from the importer of the Caputo 00 flours and he was guesstimating.

Peter

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 11:36:30 AM »
pietradoro,

I have never been able to get accurate protein content numbers on the BelAria, and it was clear that their labeling information couldn't possibly be right. Even the importer of that flour could not give me the answer. The number I recited came from the importer of the Caputo 00 flours and he was guesstimating.

Peter

Peter,

pizzanapoletana quoted the 11.5%-12.5% protein off the big bag of the Caputo "Pizzeria" in another thread, but perhaps you aren't referring to the Caputo "Pizzeria."

Based on what I've read on these boards about the maturing characteristics of a Bel Aria dough, it would seem that the Bel Aria does indeed have a very low protein content, and probably lower than the Caputos, but certainly not 3%.

FYI, I know someone using the Bel Aria, using it to make "instant" pizza, meaning that there is no significant rise time -- just make the dough, then make the pizza immediately or within an hour or two (super thin crust, pizza classica Toscana).  I've had it many times and it's delicious.  I'm thinking this is possible with the Bel Aria, because of the very low protein content, and would not be as successfull with the Caputo "Pizzeria," for example.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 12:08:12 PM »
pietradoro,

I was referring to the BelAria 00 flour. When I first called the importer of the BelAria flour, I received a call back from the importer of the Caputo 00 flour. Presumably the importer of the BelAria flour did not know the answer to the protein question I posed but assumed the importer of the Caputo 00 flour would. Well, he didn't know for sure either, but gave me his best guess anyway. As it turned out, we ended up having a nice long chat about 00 flours and we have since had many other chats and email exchanges since then. So it was a nice outcome.

You are exactly correct about the use of the BelAria flour for short maturation applications. I have reported before on this forum of the results of my efforts to use the BelAria 00 flour to make pizzas from beginning to end within one hour. To do this, I jack up all the temperatures, I use more yeast than usual, I use a food processor, and I use a proofing box (which I have described and shown at the Proofing Box thread). This approach works much better for the BelAria 00 flour than the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, presumably because of the lower protein content of the BelAria. FYI, here is the formulation I use, along with my notes on the process:

Last-Minute Pizza Dough Recipe Using 00 Flour and Proofing Box

1 c. 00 flour, Bel Aria brand preferred
1/3 c. water
1/2 t. instant yeast (SAF brand)
1/2 t. sea salt
Olive oil, for oiling the bowl

Before starting the dough for this recipe, preheat the oven and a pizza stone to their highest possible temperature (usually around 500-550 degrees F), and, using a proofing box, set the proofing box to its highest setting, around 120 degrees F. This is higher than the normal temperature range for instant yeast, but still considerably below the temperature (around 138-140 degrees F) that will kill the yeast.

To make the dough, place the water in a 1-cup glass measuring cup and heat it in a microwave oven for about 20-25 seconds. The temperature of the water, as measured on an instant-read thermometer, should be around 115-120 degrees F. Put the flour and yeast in the bowl of a food processor and pulse to combine. With the motor running, add the warm water. Process until the ingredients come together to form a ball between the blade and the processor bowl, and continue processing until the dough is smooth, adjusting the amount of flour and water if necessary, about another 30 seconds. Add the salt and continue processing for about another 10-15 seconds, or until the salt is fully incorporated and the dough ball is smooth and capable of passing the windowpane test. At this point, the dough will be quite warm (the food processor itself will add several degrees to the dough temperature because of the frictional heat produced by the processor). Remove the dough ball from the processor bowl and put it in a lightly oiled bowl (a 2-cup size glass-measuring cup will also do). The bowl should be the smallest bowl that will hold the dough when it has about doubled in volume (so that the energy from the proofing box isn't wasted on the bowl). Cover the bowl with plastic wrap (or use a hotel shower cap) and put it in the proofing box. Let the dough rise in the proofing box until about doubled in volume, about 30-40 minutes. (To check, press a finger into the dough; if the indentation remains, the dough is ready to use.)

As the dough is rising, the toppings to be used on the pizza should be readied (they should be few and light for a 00-based pizza). When the dough has risen, move it to a lightly floured work surface and pat and stretch the dough to a round with a thickness of about 1/4-inch. The diameter of the pizza round should be about 8-9 inches. Finish the pizza by placing the pizza round on a lightly floured pizza peel, adding the desired toppings, and baking the pizza until the bottom of the crust is light brown, about 6-7 minutes for a minimalist pizza with few toppings. The top of the crust will be a light tan color characteristic of pizza crusts made with a low protein flour and without the use of a sweetener or olive oil in the dough. Estimated total time for producing the pizza: About 1 hour.

(Peter's Note: It is also possible to combine the 00 flour with a small amount of bread flour or a small amount of vital wheat gluten to slightly increase the protein and gluten content of the 00 flour. Also, I have made this pizza without using any olive oil, even for the container used to hold the dough during rising. However, the addition of some oil to the dough may have the effect of tenderizing the crust and increasing its crispiness, if such is desired. I do not recommend that bread or high-gluten flour be used in this recipe. The resulting pizza crust will not look or taste like a normal bread flour or high-gluten flour crust. It will have a nice brown color, as is typical with high protein flours like bread and high-gluten flour, but it will have few bubbles, it will be rather flat than puffy, and it will taste more like cardboard.)

Peter

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Pennmac re-packed 5lb bags Caputo "Pizzeria" flour
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 12:41:44 PM »
Thanks for the recipe!


 

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