Making a BF crust more tender?

[jeff v]

Hi All,

I'm using KABF in my home oven, baking thinner crust pizzas at 550. Does anyone have any tips on how to make the crust a bit more tender?  The recipe I've been using has a 12 hr poolish and a 18 hour bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 on the counter before balling. The dough is 70% hydration.

KABF happens to be what I have but I'd use another bread flour
I'd like to stay away from adding oil
I've seen baguette recipes where a blend w AP is used
The flour is malted-would adding any more be helpful?

I know I may be asking too much given my oven temps. I bet if I baked these in the 2stone at 650 it would be a different story. Thanks for any input.

[mkevenson]

Jeff, my initial thought would be to mix some caputo 00 pizzeria flour with the KABF. I have gone 50/50 with nice results.

Mark

[jeff v]

Jeff, my initial thought would be to mix some caputo 00 pizzeria flour with the KABF. I have gone 50/50 with nice results.
Mark

Thanks for the suggestion Mark. The taste of Caputo in a home oven is not one I enjoy, so I'm going to try 50/50 w AP.

[Chicago Bob]

The recipe I've been using has a 12 hr poolish and a 18 hour bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 on the counter before balling. The dough is 70% hydration.

Jeff,
What are you doing with it once the dough is balled?

[TXCraig1]

Why not 100% KAAP?

[jeff v]

Jeff,
What are you doing with it once the dough is balled?

Let it rest for an hour or so...then make pizza. 

[jeff v]

Why not 100% KAAP?

You know, of all the flours and pizzas I've tried I don't remember ever doing 100% AP. Have you? I like the pull and chew of BF but it gets a bit tough.

I went to Great Lake Pizza again which is how this started. That crust is amazing. It reminds of the best of a baguette and a pizza at the same time.

[Mmmph]

I've used KAAP for NP, Sicilian, NY, California...Hey, it's all-purpose!
Just work it longer for more gluten development.

[TXCraig1]

You know, of all the flours and pizzas I've tried I don't remember ever doing 100% AP. Have you?

KAAP is the only flour I used until I got the WFO and went to Caputo.

[jeff v]

KAAP is the only flour I used until I got the WFO and went to Caputo.

I have a poolish of 50/50  going right now, but I'll try that next week.

[mvd]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "tender." Do you mean you want it less crispy? You say that you don't want to add oil, so aside from trying a different flour, my only suggestion would be reduce the fermentation time (maybe omit the poolish?). But that might affect the flavor too much.

[jeff v]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "tender." Do you mean you want it less crispy? You say that you don't want to add oil, so aside from trying a different flour, my only suggestion would be reduce the fermentation time (maybe omit the poolish?). But that might affect the flavor too much.

Maybe less chewy or tough is a better way to say it.

[jeff v]

Anyone have experience adding malt powder to an already malted flour?

[Chicago Bob]

Maybe less chewy or tough is a better way to say it.

Have you ever tried a higher protein flour than BF?

[norma427]

Anyone have experience adding malt powder to an already malted flour?

Jeff,

I did try dry malt in a couple of formulations for pizza dough.  If you are interested you can see what Tom Lehmann said at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177389.html#msg177389 and then what I posted in the next post after Tom.

I also used malt in the Fairmont Bagel Pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.msg118694.html#msg118694

I know I used malt in other pizza doughs, but can’t recall right now what they were or even if I used malted flours with malt powder.

Norma

[jeff v]

Have you ever tried a higher protein flour than BF?

I think higher protein would be taking me the wrong way Bob.

[jeff v]

Jeff,

I did try dry malt in a couple of formulations for pizza dough.  If you are interested you can see what Tom Lehmann said at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177389.html#msg177389 and then what I posted in the next post after Tom.

I also used malt in the Fairmont Bagel Pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.msg118694.html#msg118694

I know I used malt in other pizza doughs, but can’t recall right now what they were or even if I used malted flours with malt powder.

Norma

Thanks Norma. Based on Toms response it looks like its not a good idea to add any kind of malt to an already malted flour.

[Pete-zza]

Jeff,

As others have noted, to get a more tender, less chewy crust, the most frequently recommended practice is to use a lower protein flour. It doesn't have to be all-purpose flour but the flour should have a lower protein content than bread flour in your case. You can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to test out different flour blends to get a protein content somewhere between bread flour and all-purpose flour.

Sugar is also often used to tenderize a crust, along with oil (which you have ruled out for now). Sugar is a hygroscopic substance and helps retain moisture in the dough during baking. However, you would have to use a fair amount of sugar to have the desired crust softening effect. Honey is even more hygroscopic than sugar and will also add a bit more moisture to the dough (since honey is about 17 percent water). You already have a high hydration value so you shouldn't need to increase the current value. Adding a bit more yeast as part of the final mix might give you a greater rise in the finished crust and create more of a sensation of softness and tenderness.

Peter

[jeff v]

I hadn't used or seen that tool. Thanks Peter.

I'm going to use a couple blends then probably add some honey if I'm still not happy. I will also probably dial the hydration back in future batches given the AP flour.

[norma427]

I hadn't used or seen that tool.
 

Jeff,

I tried to access the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to show you it, but my computer won’t let me access it.  I don’t know if anyone else is having problems accessing November’s tool or not.

Norma