Author Topic: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb  (Read 9616 times)

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Offline Danes Dad

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453 grams (100%) King Arthur bread flour (final amount used was 449 grams)
272 grams (62%) Hot tap water (about 110 F)
24 grams (5.3%) Cane sugar
15 grams (3.3%) Kosher salt
13 grams (2.8%) oil
7 grams (1.5%) IDY

Here is the process I’m following.  Everything seems fine, but my result is a bread-like dough.  I can’t get good voids.

Mix flour, salt and sugar in bowl.  Separate flour mixture in two and add yeast to one part. Put water in bowl and add flour mixture (part with yeast).  Mix until all flour is integrated.  Then gradually add second part of flour to mixture.  I left out about ˝ cup of flour, this was gradually added later during the hand kneading. After rest of flour is mixed in let  rest for 10 minutes.   Pete in one of your earlier posts you discussed the autolyse period.  As what  I’m doing is not a true autolyse (combining only flour and water) I’m not sure if the rest period is really beneficial.

After the rest period I began the hand kneading.  I used some of the leftover flour to coat the countertop.  During the kneading I gradually added the oil to the dough.  Hand kneaded for 15 minutes.   After kneading still had 4 grams flour left over so hydration ended up being 62.5%.

The dough handled really well, although never passed the window pane test.  Final temp for the dough was 86F.  Dough was halved and put in fridge for 48hrs.  Before cooking the dough was allowed to come to room temp for 90 minutes, then stretched and made into two 12” pies.  Cooked directly on an unglazed tile oven which was warmed to 510 F for forty minutes prior to cooking.  Pizza was cooked for 7 minutes.  After three minutes I turned on the broiler element.  This allowed for a very even cooking.

While I think my pies turned out well I can’t overlook the fact that the dough was hand kneaded and it was bread flour not a high gluten flour.  One obviously missing ingredient that Randy puts in his recipe is Honey.  In a previous attempt I forgot to buy more so went ahead a made a pie without.  The resulting pizza was fine so I’ve decided to leave it out from now on. 

Randy, Pete, DKM, chiguy, scottr and everyone else, is there anything that stands out that should be corrected.


Offline chiguy

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2005, 06:46:18 PM »
 Hello Danes Dad,
 I am sure it made for a good pizza as all the ingrediants are in line for a N.Y. type crust. The KASL bread flour can still create a crust with good voids but High -Glutenflour is always better for a open airy crust with larger voids. I am a fan of the autolyse buy not an expert. I have let the dough rest for only 10 min during autolyse and could notice a difference in the dough elasticity. I use a 20 minute rest, I also believe that this process is reserved for machine dough and not the hand kneading. With this being said there are a couple of things that stand out. The fact that the dough may not have been mixed well before you begin hand kneading. I also noticed you tried to incorpoate 1/2 cup of flour into the dough while hand kneading. This is too much bench flour to use for kneading and most of it should have been added to the dough during the first mixing period.Only a sprinkle of flour is necessary for Kneading. Kneading is to develop gluten-structure,not to incorpoate additional flour. I am not undermining you're kneading techniques but you probably did not develop a great gluten structure even though you spent 15 min and worked up a good sweat. One minute in the mixer is the equivelant to 5 min by hand. If you mixed the dough in the mixer for 2 min and then 15min by hand, it could be under 5min total time mixed in the mixer. The finished dough temperature(86F) was also above the acceptable range for a retarded dough(72-84F). If the dough is too warm it can become overfermented or blow and make a bland or hard/flat crust. I DO NOT THINK THIS WAS THE PROBLEM FOR YOU BUT WANTED TO MENTION IT FOR MAKING FUTURE RETARDED DOUGHS. I was curious if you also cooked the pizza on a screen/pan even though you mentioned it went directly on the hot tiles. I noticed all of the pizza pics are on a screen or pan?? In order to get better oven spring and larger voids, a raw pizza skin has to hit hot tiles. If you're oven will go higher than 510F, then i would suggest the highest setting. The lack of honey will have no effect in the dough other than taste and color. My suggestion is to make sure the dough with all it's ingrediant's are mixed well and additional rest time for autolyse. This should help produce a window pane effect that you are looking for as well as help with more voids in the finished crust.   Chiguy
« Last Edit: December 25, 2005, 10:40:18 AM by chiguy »

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2005, 07:02:15 PM »
Chiguy - Thanks for the suggestions.

I did put the pizza directly on the stones and only use the screen to remove them from the oven.  I think your right on with the kneading, or lack of.  Next time after kneading for 15 minutes i'll halve the dough a normal, but continue to knead one half for another 10-15 minutes. 
Regarding dough temp, I assume the best way is to just use a lower temp out of the faucet?  I'll drop it down to about 100F.
I didn't even think about the high amount of flour I was adding during the kneading.  Next time will use a much smaller amount as bench flour.
I guess I didn't realize I was making a N.Y. style.

All your suggestions make sense. Will be making more dough tomorrow,  I'll let you know how your suggestions helped.

Thanks again

Offline chiguy

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2005, 07:24:05 PM »
  Hi Danes Dad,
  This is apparently a American style recipe which usually tries to emulate a N.Y. stlye to some extent. Also the large voids you were curious about are more consistent with N.Y. stlye, so this is the direction i steered you in. You might try a N.Y. Leahman dough using HG flour for the larger voids and a more open crumb. My apology to Randy and do not mean to change his recipe in anyway. The suggestions I mentioned above are in line with achieving a better crust. If you are using IDY there is no reason to use hot water(100F) and room temperature water(70F) is suffcient. If you use room temperature water(70F) you shoud be able to get a finished dough temperature between the recommended (72-84F) for a retarded dough.          Goodluck, Chiguy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2005, 09:50:43 AM »
DanesDad,

From a quick read of what you did, I would say that underkneading may have been the reason why your dough didn't quite turn out as you hoped. If my math is correct, you were working with about 1 3/4 pounds of dough. That amount of dough s hard to knead by hand, even for bread flour. I don't think that the use of a rest period other than a classical autolyse of just flour and water was at fault. My experience is that all rest periods tend to be beneficial as far as hydration is concerned, even if not optimal.

An additional point I'd like to make is that Randy spent a long time with much experimentation to perfect his formulation. So I would not be inclined to leave out the honey in future efforts if you are trying to achieve the results intended by Randy. When I tried Randy's formulation, I thought that the honey had a beneficial effect on the dough consistency and feel.

I don't think that substituting bread flour for high-gluten flour should have much of an effect on the crumb. In fact, if memory serves me correct, Randy at one time posted a bread flour version of his formulation. Either way, the crumb for the bread flour version may not be as open and airy as with other types of crusts but will be quite decent nonetheless.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 25, 2005, 09:53:44 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2005, 05:35:59 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza
I'm getting more flour (King Arthur bread flour) today, if any place is open, and will make more dough.  I think my main limitation is my kneading time.  In previous posts you mentioned that a properly mixed dough will be tacky and not to worry about your dough being too wet or dry, as these are subjective terms.  My problem is after I mixed the dough I thought it was tacky.  I think the only way to solve my kneading time question is through experience, but 15 minutes is obviously too short of time.
I don't want to make too many changes at one time so i'll leave out the honey again next time and just incorporate a longer knead period.  This plus the basic changes Chiguy mentioned hopefully will give me a better crust.  If I still haven't solved my problem i'll add the honey back in.  To give a better idea of what i'm working with i'll post picture of my dough after the kneading.  Thanks again.

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2005, 05:35:22 PM »
Ok, finally got some more King Arthur bread flour.  What were all these stores thinking closing on Christmas, don't they know there's pizza to be made ;D.

Here is a picture of the dough after the initial mixing.  This is after 3 minutes of mixing.  Everything is in the mix except the oil.  Chiguy, the water temperature is 71F.  I am going to allow it to rest for 20 minutes before I begin the kneading.  I'll take another picture after the hand kneading, which i'm going to attempt for 30 minutes.  30 minutes on Chiguys advice that 1 minute in the stand mixer = 5 minutes of hand kneading.


Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2005, 06:34:04 PM »
Here is the dough.  The first picture was taken as soon as I was done kneading for 30 minutes.  The second picture is after the dough was balled and oiled.

I used room temperature water (70F).  I know this will help, but after kneading for 30 minutes the dough temperature was 86F.  This could again be a problem, i'll have to wait and see.  Next time i'll use an even lower temperature water.

I'm putting the dough in the fridge for 24hrs and will do a pepperoni/olive pizza tomorrow night.  I'll add pictures after the cooking. 

Offline chiguy

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2005, 07:04:35 PM »
 Hi Danes Dad,
 Nice pics,the dough looks very well mixed/kneaded. Did you really knead the dough for 30 min? thats incredible. I always leave a gallon of water on the tile floor. With lower temperatures closer to the floor it tends to keep the water a bit under 70F. I still feel you should be fine with the fermentation even though you are over(86F) recommmended retarded dough range. This can affect the finished dough to some degree but mostly it speeds up the fermentation process. The next time you make a dough take a 2oz piece off and see if you can stretch it out to window pane. When i get my camera woorking i will post some pics of a window pane dough. Can't wait to see you're finished results.
                                                                                                      Chiguy
« Last Edit: December 26, 2005, 08:38:53 PM by chiguy »

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 12:36:22 PM »
There are voids and then there are voids. I do a cracker dough with lots of large bubbles. I also make bread when I am not making pizza. The main difference, water. You have a wet dough that is great for a bubbly bread. You have hot water and lots of sugar and lots of fermentation time. Also good for bread. 5-10 minutes of kneading is usually sufficient for pizza dough.  You also have warmed up your dough by all that handling. My pizza dough is always cool. I want the voids. I never dock. In the end it is whatever works.  Good luck.



Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2005, 01:11:46 AM »
Here is the pizza after a 30hr (about) stint in the fridge.  Results: First the good news, it was the best tasting pizza I have made yet.  The bad news is I don't think I improved (increased in size and numbers) my voids.  Still seem to be more of a bread crumb.
This dough was smaller than the first.  I only used 409grams of KA bread flour, the percentages remain the same as in the first attempt.  Due to this I only made one pie, a pepperoni.  The dough stretched easily for a good 15".  The mesh screen used to take the pie out of the oven is 16".  The oven was preheated to 530F for 1hr.  The dough sat on the counter for 1hr as well.

First picture is of dough straight from fridge, it doubled in size the first 4hrs.
Second picture is of pie dressed and ready to be put on preheated stones.  I don't have a peel, but plenty of cardboard boxes so thats what i'm using.  Cardboard works fine.
Third picture is after six minutes in oven.  First three on bake, last three with broil on high.
Other pictures are self explanatory.

As I said this was the best tasting pizza I have had yet.  So maybe I should quit worrying about voids.  On the other hand there are still some changes I can make.

First change will be to use colder water.  I used 71F and after 30 minutes of hand kneading dough temp was 86F.  Next time will drop water temp to 60-65F.

Elsegundo - Thanks for the suggestions.  Is it your suggestion that I lower my hydration, water temp (71F is hot?), sugar level and fermentation time?  As well as my kneading time?  I thought by increasing my hydration and kneading time I would increase my voids. 

Pete-zza, chiguy - I forgot to weigh the final dough and to try the window pane test.  As I stated above this latest pizza only used 409g of flour.  The first batch used 449grams of flour giving one dough at 382g and one at 376g.  Next time when  I decrease my water temp i'll be sure to try the window pane test and weigh the final dough.

The quest continues.  Danes dad

Offline chiguy

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2005, 11:48:39 AM »
 Hi Danes Dad,
 It looks like a improvement over the first set of pics. I can see from the new pics you had some improvment with better voids. I think you're results are consistent with using bread flour.  I notice the bottom is very brown, this is probably from the amount sugar in the dough. Having a sugar level of 5.3% you are above the recommended range for a pizza dough. I do not advise you to alter this recipe any further. I do not like to alter members recipes. I have suggested you try a N.Y. Leahman dough. I would suggest go even hotter on you're oven up to 550F if it is capable, but not with the amount of sugar used in this recipe. A hotter oven helps produce bigger voids along with high hydration. A note to keep in mind is that bread flour will have a maxium hydration limit lower than that of a High gluten flour. I mention this because alot of N.Y. recips here tend to call for HG flour,so you may have to alter you're hydration using bread flour to achieve the same results.   Chiguy

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2005, 12:15:37 PM »
Chiguy - Thanks, I think you're right.  After driving into work this morning and thinking about it, I probably made too many changes to the recipe and coupled with hand kneading probably made it too hard to achieve the results I was looking for.

I will try  Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza.  Pete-zza has very detailed instructions for this pizza.  My only separation from his instructions will be using bread dough and a lower hydration level.  Actually, what do you think would alter the results more using bread dough or hand kneading KASL.  I know KASL discourages hand kneading so maybe it's better to go with the bread dough.  Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2005, 12:19:08 PM »
DanesDad,

I did a reasonable amount of experimentation with Randy's recipe and did not get the same degree of openess and airiness in the rim of the crust as I generally do with a NY style--and that was with using a high-gluten flour. If you look at the photos at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html, I think you will see what I mean. I think Randy's results are pretty much locked up in his recipe. You might be able to increase the hydration in the recipe by a few percent and get the type of crumb more along the lines you are looking for, but beyond that you would only be altering the recipe in ways that were not intended, and with final results that were not intended. Randy's recipe is a highly unique one, unlike any I have seen and analyzed before (although I tried to explain its unique aspects at the abovementioned thread.) Randy experimented long and hard to perfect his recipe, and it looks like there was a reason (or at least a desired end result) for everything he did in the recipe.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2005, 10:08:27 AM »
DanesDad,

While recently visiting a friend in Massachusetts, I made a 16-inch NY style pizza based on a "thin" version of Canadave's recently-posted dough recipe. The dough weighed about 21 ounces and was based on using King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. Since my friend does not have any machine capable of kneading dough, I did all the kneading entirely by hand. I followed Canadave's instructions carefully, but deviated slightly by incorporating all the flour into the dough before adding the oil and salt. This, along with a 20-minute autolyse, was done in an effort to improve the overall hydration of the dough, and hopefully make it easier to knead by hand.

I had no problems whatsoever in kneading the dough. It was soft and supple and smooth. I hand kneaded the dough for about 15 minutes but in retrospect I think I could have shortened that time to about 10-12 minutes. I think the combination of high hydration level (a bit over 64%) and the autolyse were primarily responsible for the ease with which I kneaded the dough. And when the dough was "done", it was still a bit tacky.

I hope to post photos of the finished pizza when I return home to Texas, but the pizza turned out very well. The voids weren't as large and as prevalent as with other NY style pizas I have made, but the rim and crumb were soft and tender nonetheless. Unfortunately, in my case, I was working with an unfamiliar gas oven that didn't hold the heat as well as my electric oven at home (and I could't get the broiler to work), so it's possible that the oven may have affected the texture of the finished crust and crumb. In addition, the pizza was dressed with several more toppings than what I normally use, which could also have affected the final crust results. The total bake time was about double the time I am accustomed to using.

I wouldn't worry too much about the temperature effects of hand kneading. I don't think that hand kneading increases dough temperature by more than a degree or so. In fact, when I calculate water temperature to achieve a particular finished dough temperature (usually 80 degrees F), I assign a friction factor of 1 degree to hand kneading. The dough I made, using water from the tap as Canadave instructs in his recipe, had a finished dough temperature of just under 77 degrees F--in a kitchen that had a temperature of about 69 degrees F.

I think the most important lesson I gained from the recent exercise is that it is possible to make a very good pizza using hand kneading of a dough based on a high gluten flour like the KASL. I would mention, however, that the final results are likely to benefit from the use of a high hydration level and a long (e.g., at least 20 minutes) autolyse. Also, the total dough weight can't be too great. As mentioned above, in my case it was about 21 ounces. These principles are general in nature and should even apply to Randy's American style pizza dough you are experimenting with.

Peter

Offline Danes Dad

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2005, 05:21:27 PM »
Peter, thanks for the tips.
I'm really glad to hear you put togther a great pizza by hand kneading.  I can't wait to see the photos.  As a newbie I think it will really help to see what a properly hand kneaded dough looks like.  I am picking up some high gluten flour tonight (Pendleton Mills High Gluten) so hopefully will be cooking tomorrow night.   One aspect I can't replicate is using KASL, so for now i'll be using the Pendleton flour.  Danes dad

Offline scott r

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2005, 03:30:17 AM »
Danes Dad, don't give up on the King Arthur bread flour yet!!!!

I wish I had read this thread before the pizza party at my sisters place last night.  If so I would have taken some pictures of the voids in the crust I made which were huge.  I made four 2000 gram batches of dough by hand with KA bread for the party.  I have been using KA Sir Lancelot, Caputo flour, and an electrolux dlx mixer almost exclusively and these hand kneaded King Arthur bread flour pies were right up there in texture and airiness.  I was using a starter culture instead of commercial yeast which I am sure helped with the positive qualities of the pies, but my mixing technique might also get you closer to the large voids you crave.  I think that in the end I probably did less mixing than what you have been doing, especially with your last batch. I tried a few different hand mixing techniques over the past few weeks with a bunch of batches of dough and I think I prefer no initial autolyse and minimal kneading.   I know this is a different opinion than what I have read in many places, but I think that it actually easier to overmix by hand than some people say.  I have pulled the dough out of my electrolux at various stages of mixing to feel it's consistency and it never gets to a point where it is tough, or hard to fold onto itself. It always stays very soft and supple even with high gluten flours towards the end of mixing.  While practicing  hand mixing over the past few weeks I have found it fairly easy to manipulate the dough into a state that is hard to work.  At that point I have found it necessary to put the dough down to rest for a few minutes and let the gluten relax.  The doughs I have made where I have done this have not had my favorite texture, and have had a tighter crumb.

My techniques outlined below could yield different results using commercial yeast, but you might want to give it a try anyhow. Maybe someone can offer up a conversion of this recipe to commercial yeast.   If you do have a starter definitely try it with this method, as I can promise that it repeatedly produced tender airy pies with all four batches of dough that I made. I have found it important to match the hydration percentage of the dough not only to the flour used, and the humidity of the room, but also to the oven temp that you will be using. I tried a few hydration percentages with a normal (550 ish) temp home oven and this is what I came up with. 

Scott's ultimate King Arthur bread flour recipe for a 550 degree oven:

63% hydration
2% oil
2.5% salt
2.65% starter culture.

The first thing I did was measure out the water into a large bowl and add in the salt.  I mixed with a fork until the salt was dissolved.  I then added the starter (yeast) and 1/2 of the total flour of the recipe quickly without letting the yeast sit by itself in the salty water for too long.  I stirred and whipped the mixture with a fork just until all the lumps were gone and the mixture was all one smooth texture.  I tried to incorporate as much air in this mixing procedure as I could, almost whisking like I was making a meringue. 

As soon as the first procedure was done I added in another 1/4 of the flour all at once.  At the beginning of this second procedure I could still use the fork to mix, but after a minute or two of stirring in the flour it was starting to get tough do do without getting my hands in there.  As soon as I had to switch to my hands I added in the oil.  I tried to do minimal squishing in of the dough (this comes more naturally to me), but instead tried to do as much folding over as possible.  My goal was to do the least amount of kneading possible while still completely combining all of the ingredients.  Once the flour seemed fully incorporated I stopped.  At this point the dough was very sticky and parts of it were attached to my hands. 

The last procedure was to combine the final 1/4 of the flour.  Just like in the previous step I tried to do as much folding as possible, and I tried to spend as little time possible messing with the dough.  I poured the remaining flour from the recipe in all at once on top of the dough ball to try to minimize the amount of time spent incorporating it. Since I was mixing larger batches I would pull the dough out of the bowl from time to time and let gravity (and  my hands) stretch it to a longer form.  That longer piece could then be folded back on itself again.  Once the outside of the dough was a little wet again I would dip it back into the bowl with the remaining flour in it. I would roll the dough ball so all sides were coated with flour and would do another round of stretching and folding.   I only kneaded/folded just until all of the flour was incorporated into the dough ball.  At this point the doughball was still tacky and lumpy, but there were no chunks or pockets of flour within.  Now at this point I think some people would start the kneading procedure and continue until the dough turns smooth.  Instead I did my first and only autolyse and let the dough sit covered for about 15 minutes.  After 15 minutes I folded the dough onto itself a few more times and it almost instantly went smooth.   

At that point the dough was put back into the bowl, covered loosely with plastic wrap, and left to sit in a cool area for 12 hours.  After the rest period I formed dough balls and put them into lightly oiled individual plastic containers.  The dough was left to sit for another 12 hours in a cool spot in the house.  I would guess that with commercial yeast the dough would be ready much sooner.  You could probably skip the first 12 hour fermentation all together and just go right to forming the dough balls after the last mini knead.

GOOD LUCK and happy holidays!  I think that in time you will find the King Arthur Bread flour to be a really great product.  After these pies I am not sure I am going to bother with with the extra hassle I have to go through to obtain the Sir Lancelot anymore.  At no point did I feel like I needed the higher gluten flour for any reason.  I know these are unconventional mixing procedures so if anybody would like to try them out and comment on improvements it would be appreciated.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2005, 10:25:59 AM »
scott,

That is a great report on hand kneading. I think you may have made PizzaBrazil (Luis) happy with what you did since he was hoping that one of the members would try mimimal kneading, as he reported at Reply #5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19158.html. Luis used autolyse and a different flour, but kept the kneading to a minimum. I was planning to try the minimal hand kneading approach myself in my own home where it wouldn't matter if it failed. But I'm glad you tried it and reported on your results.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2005, 11:16:03 AM »
 hi Scottr,
 Thanks for sharing the procedure and formula with us. I know you posted it in randy's thread but i think it is worthy of its own. It may be difficult for members to find it here.
                                                                                                               Chiguy
                                                                                                                               

Offline scott r

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Re: Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2005, 01:19:08 PM »
I just wanted to point out that even though I was going for minimal kneading I was making really large batches so the mixing process still took a long time.  I think the key to my success might have been the gentle handling of the dough and not the actual knead time involved.  Basically I was just trying to simulate the action of my electrolux.   I think my brother snapped some pics of the pies, so I will try to locate them and post as well.

I almost forgot that I did make a batch of dough with no starter and 0.4% IDY.  That was actually a 5th batch that I made, but didn't end up using for the party, so I can't really comment on the crumb. My starter had been sitting out for so long by the time I got to that 5th batch that I was worried about its viability.  The 0.4% IDY batch did seem to work fine when I did a mini test pie.  I noticed that the flavor and possibly the texture was not as good as the one made with starter so I ended up not using it.  I feel that way about commercial yeast in general now, so I don't think this is any reason not to try this recipe with IDY.  I punched down the IDY dough and formed dough balls after 10 hours, but I think the IDY batch was probably ready to use after another 4 hrs instead of the additional 12.  Anyone trying this recipe should know that the temperature of where the dough rises is a huge factor in how long the dough should ferment for. It varies so widely that I have a feeling you could halve the fermentation times (or the amount of yeast) in the summer and still be in the same ballpark.   I think a good general rule for long slow same day fermentation is that a double in the first stage, and then another double in the second stage is just about right for IDY.  For the starter culture, very minimal to no rise in first stage and an expansion of 1/2 (half a double) in the second stage would be a good time to use the dough.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 01:40:55 PM by scott r »


 

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