Author Topic: Going organic and getting a bit more rise  (Read 4163 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« on: January 18, 2013, 06:48:53 PM »
First off, you all have been super helpful with all my past dough questions, so thank you.

And....I have one more :)

I've been able to finally (!) source a high protein content organic flour from a distributor that I have been experimenting with over these past few days.

I am currently experimenting with the Guistos High Performance. Previously I have been using All Trumps.

There are a few subtle differences that I have noticed so far and was hoping to get some thoughts on;

Overall the taste is great, no noticeable difference from the AT, but,

1. Crust on organic is not browning as much
2. Has a distinct, but subtle crunch on the bottom of the crust (this I like!, just curious why this would be)
3. Organic is not getting quite as much rise on crust ring, and is not getting quite the amount of surface bubbling, both of which I prefer to have.

Both the organic test and traditional dough were cold fermented for 24 hrs before testing.

My initial thought is to maybe try bumping the yeast up a bit for the rise, and possibly the sugar a bit for browning? but not sure.

I kept my ingredient percentages the same for both batches, and if I calculated this correctly, they are as follows

Flour- 50lb bag
H20- 63%
Yeast- .44%
Salt- 1.6%
Sugar- .8%
Oil- 2%
Garlic powder .2%

I've been on the quest to switch over to organic flour for quite some time now, so am excited to finally get my hands on a good option, which has been difficult to come by where I live.

Your thoughts on some minor tweaks are much appreciated!!




Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 07:35:08 PM »
To add a bit more information for Tom to consider, see the description of the flour at http://giustos.com/home_baker/flours/bread-flours/high-performer-high-protein-unbleached-white-flour.html.

Peter

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 07:15:54 AM »
Annie, you lost the browning with the move to the organic flour because it's unmalted.  Without the malt, you have less enzyme generated sugar and thus less browning.  To correct this you could:

1. Supplement the organic flour with malted barley flour
2. Add more sugar
3. Extend your fermentation time
4. Increase your oil

The malted barley flour will standardize the browning on it's own, and most likely give you the most comparable product to what you're creating now, but, dialing in the right quantity will take some trial and error.  If you take the other routes, you'll need to use more than one. If you can, I'd suggest going with all three.

Move from 24 to 48 hours (or even possibly 72 if you can store that much dough)
bump to 1.5% sugar
bump to 3% oil

It may seem counter intuitive, but more yeast doesn't necessarily translate into greater oven spring.  You want to use enough yeast so the dough rises between 2-3x in your allotted time frame.  As long as the dough is expanding to that volume by the time you work with it, you shouldn't need more yeast.

Malted flour contains enzymes which, beyond breaking down starch into sugar, slowly break down protein as well.  It's just a theory, but I believe that this protein degradation adds to extensibility, creating better oven spring with NY bake times. I believe this is why unmalted flours like Caputo tend to get dense and tough when you lower the bake temps/extend the bake times. In other words, I think that the unmalted Caputo produces less extensible and less tender doughs than malted flour, but these two tendencies are completely negated by the explosive nature of the 60-90 second bake.  When you slow down the bake, though, the tendencies begin to materialize. In theory :)

Assuming I'm correct, either the malted barley supplementation or the extended fermentation time should help in the oven spring department.

Malted barley can be a bit intimidating for the home baker, but on a professional level, you'll see it occasionally.  In your scenario, it's the most straightforward method of establishing an analog to the previous flour.  Basically, the Giustos high performer is formulated for very fast, sub 90 second Neapolitan bakes, where malted barley would cause premature burning.  It's not really ideal for NY. By adding malt or extending the fermentation, you're NYifying it. Considering the potential logistical issues of a longer fermentation, I think malted barley flour is your best bet.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 09:08:21 AM »
Annie,

My thinking was along the same lines as scott123's but I was curious to see how Tom would respond to your questions since you addressed the questions directly to him on the Ask the Dough Doctor board rather than to the open forum, and I also know that you have had exchanges with him on the subject of using organic flour over at the PMQ Think Tank. I cited the brief specs for the Giusto's flour more as a "hint" to see if Tom's answer would address the lack of malting in the Giusto's flour, especially since he did not raise the issue of malting in the PMQTT thread where you had your exchanges with him at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=81546#p81546.

As you may already have discovered, some high-gluten organic flours come already malted, with a good example being the King Arthur high-gluten flour as described at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1327335262548.pdf. The KA flour is somewhat higher in protein than the Giusto's flour that you are using, so it may yield a bit more crust coloration as a result. If you are interested, you can see the specs for the KA high-gluten product at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-organic-bakery-flour.html.

If you decide to go the diastatic malt route, you want to be sure that you do not use too much of that product since it can lead to a gummy, pasty crust if used in excess (see, for example, Tom's post at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177389.html#msg177389). The usual recommended rate is around 0.10-0.25% of the flour weight. Sometimes it is recommended that any sugar used in the dough be scaled back or omitted if diastatic malt is used. If I were in your shoes, I would call someone at a place like Malt Products Corporation (http://maltproducts.com/) or Briess Malt & Ingredients Co (http://www.briess.com/) and ask to speak to a technical person on how to best use a diastatic malt product with your particular organic flour and at what levels and in what form (wet or dry). Suppliers of products like malt tend to quote higher levels of their products than the literature might suggest so you will want to be sure that you get a range of amounts to use and start at the low end of the range. I should also mention that not everyone achieves success supplementing a low-amylase flour with diastatic malt, or they don't perceive a difference from using that product. That said, however, Prof. Calvel, in his seminal work The Taste of Bread, was very fond of using diastatic malt with his French flours, at a rate of 0.20-0.30% of the flour weight. He was also very fond of using ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). As you may know, ascorbic acid is often used in commercial flours as a substitute for potassium bromate, as is used in the All Trumps high-gluten flour that you have been using if I recall correctly. It is not nearly as good as potassium bromate but some users, such as the chains that do business in places like California, have no choice.

Another possibility that you might consider is to send an email to Tim Huff at General Mills. He is the fellow shown in the photo at the bottom of the page at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/technical-support-tools. There used to be a direct link to contact Tim but GM re-did its website its website not long ago so you may want to use the Contact Us button and reference Tim in your message. I mention this approach because GM sells an unmalted high-gluten organic flour (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/sperry-organic-hygluten-flour-untreated-50-lb/57881000?mct=Flour&ct=organic&typ=Type) with a similar protein profile to yours and Tim may be able to suggest what to do given the problems you have mentioned. I have contacted Tim on many occasions and he has always been helpful and responsive.

There is also a very good article on malt at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8308.0.html. You might want to read that article in advance of calling anyone if you are inclined to use diastatic malt. You might also take a look at the King Arthur diastatic malt product at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz. You will note there the recommended amount of diastatic malt to use.

I still hope that Tom will chime in with his observations and advice, even if it is contrary to anything I have said.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 09:21:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 09:21:56 PM »
Hi Scott and Pete-

Thank you both for the wealth of information.

This is all really interesting.

I've never used diastatic malts before, so will read a few of those links before I pick up the phone and call anyone. Sounds like you both lean towards this as opposed to trying more sugar, correct?

As far as flour choice goes, to be honest my first pick of flour was the KA organic, but I haven't been able to source it via a distributor where I live. That might sound ridiculous if either of you live in a city...but come to far western Colorado for awhile...

I did look at the Sperry line briefly and talked to a rep from GM last time I was at the pizza show. If I am correct the Sperry comes in at 13% protein, while the Giustos claims to be between 13-14.5%. Mostly, availability was the biggest issue, but I did want to nudge up to those higher protein levels as you both already know we do NY style.
I didn't realize that the Guistos was tailored more for a Neapolitan, that explanation about malts and high bake times makes sense.

Scott, I know you and I have had conversations about this in the past, but unfortunately I don't have the space for long ferment times come our busy season. I did some haphazard bulk ferment experiments this fall (two to be exact, both with lackluster results) and may try this again soon and see if I can make it work.

For the meantime I'll dive into some malt research!!

Thanks again

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 09:53:23 AM »
Annie,

As much as possible, I am a believer in changing only one variable at a time. So, before considering malt, you might increase the amount of sugar. With only one day of cold fermentation, you aren't likely to get a great deal of natural sugars (through conversion of damaged starch to natural sugars through enzyme performance) to be available as residual sugar and to participate in the Maillard reactions to contribute to crust color development, so the sugar that you add to the dough will mainly provide crust coloration through caramelization.

If you decide to try diastatic malt, you can start at the low end of the recommended range and work up or down from there. At some point, you might conclude that you also need some table sugar. Or you can reduce the amount of sugar you are already using in relation to the diastatic malt such as discussed at http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-malt-powder.htm.

Peter

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 03:12:47 PM »
Thanks Peter

I am going to try a batch first with more sugar as I spend some time researching malts

I'll let you guys know how it comes out


Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 03:42:47 AM »
I've never used diastatic malts before, so will read a few of those links before I pick up the phone and call anyone. Sounds like you both lean towards this as opposed to trying more sugar, correct?

I'm leaning towards whatever is the most successful with the least amount of effort  ;D If sugar (along with some extra oil), get you there, great. Do the easy step first, then, if that doesn't give you the results you want, then go for the malt.

Scott, I know you and I have had conversations about this in the past, but unfortunately I don't have the space for long ferment times come our busy season. I did some haphazard bulk ferment experiments this fall (two to be exact, both with lackluster results) and may try this again soon and see if I can make it work.

Annie, even if you never go with a bulk, I would still fine tune/master the process so that a bulk is part of your skill set.

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 09:20:04 AM »
I'm about to head out and try the new test batch with a higher sugar content, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Offline henkverhaar

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 59
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 10:58:25 AM »
As much as possible, I am a believer in changing only one variable at a time.

Actually, from my scientific background, I disagree with that. When only changing individual variables, you are guaranteed to miss all possible interaction effects. You'd be much better off with a "Design of Experiments" approach were you sample all relevant combinations - or a subset of relevant combinations, depending on resources. This will, at least in principle, give you a much better overview of the variable field. Now if you know that no interaction effects are in fact present, you could revert to the single variable approach...

Henk


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 12:13:06 PM »
Henk,

I will sometimes change more than one variable at a time but only if I believe that there are no interactions between them or I feel that I understand the science well enough to make adjustments. But if I am assisting others who are looking to me for help and will become involved in what they do, I usually discourage changing too many variables at one time because I am not smart enough to be able to explain all the things that happened and how to fix the problems that arose because there were too many variables changed. Since Annie posted her dough formulation in the opening post and is looking for guidance, how would you advise her to proceed?

Peter

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 07:25:29 PM »
Sooooo....

I tried the test batch with elevated sugar and very slightly elevated yeast levels and this was the outcome of the organic pizza compared to the AT.

Both organic and AT were cold fermented for 24 hrs again.

1. Slightly better browning on the organic on the crust, but not as brown as the AT
2. However, the bottom of the pizza saw more browning (?) than the AT did.
3. Slice of organic was more firm and held shape better than the AT did. I.e. the tip did not droop as much as the AT
4. This might be because there was noticeably more 'crunch' on the bottom of a slice of the organic than the AT, this batch was more 'crisp' than my last test batch, almost above the line of where I would like it.
5. No gain in rise on the organic crust. Actually, it seemed about exactly the same as before, which was about a 1/3rd-1/2 less rise than the AT.
6. Hardly any surface bubbles on organic. (To note, I bake with the 'live' side up on pizzas as I prefer a bubbled pizza and crust)

And, this is where it gets more nebulous; to my mind, and the taste buds of employees I sampled pizzas with, there was less complexity in flavor on the organic crust than there was with the AT. It's hard for me to exactly put a finger on it, but I was left with an aftertaste on the organic that was predominately 'salty', I couldn't really taste sugar, even though I had added extra, and I couldn't taste the garlic powder that we put in either. The organic this go around was definitely more bland than the AT. I'm not sure if I just didn't notice this the last time because I was so focused on texture or what, but it stood out today.

There was one glitch on our test subject today though which was noticed, of course, after the batch was made. Our stainless steel prep table had the nut on the end of one of the legs work a bit loose, and slip, causing the surface of the table to not be even. When the water was measured, the fill line was on the low side of things, the result being that our test batch was lower in hydration content than normal. When we caught this after the fact, I re-measured the H20 to see what we actually put in, and ran the numbers through a dough calculator.

So this is what our test batch looked like. Aside from the accidental lower hydration, I upped the yeast level very slightly from before, and upped the sugar.

Water- 61%
Yeast- .48%
Salt- 1.6%
Sugar- 1.2%
Oil- 2%
Garlic pwd- .16%

My question is; could the lower hydration negate the effects of the upped yeast and sugar in the organic in comparison to my AT batch which had normal hydration?

Secondly, any thoughts on the lack of flavor complexity?

I know these were both only fermented for 24 hrs, but would the presence of malt in the AT develop the flavor that much more in that short period of time?

Arrghhhh :)



Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2013, 08:25:54 AM »
I know these were both only fermented for 24 hrs, but would the presence of malt in the AT develop the flavor that much more in that short period of time?

Yes, absolutely.  Enzymes (malt) break down starches into sugar and protein into amino acids.  Amino acids = umami = flavor enhancement.

The slipped nut was unfortunate in that it skewed your results a bit. Enzymes use water activity to do their thing, so less water stifled enzyme activity and compounded your malt-free issue. The additional color on the organic undercrust is a bit of a mystery.  These both being said, I think there's more than enough data here to confirm that sugar isn't going to get you there on it's own.

The crunch you're describing as being almost 'above the line,' is a trait I've seen many times in longer baked maltless flour doughs, and, imo, it's way above the line. It's not a delicate crispiness, but a hard, stale-like quality.

I suggest getting back on the bulk horse. You won't nail it the first go, but I think you'll get enough of an improvement to see what a bulk can bring you. Here's a test batch proposal:

Water- 64%
Yeast- .07%
Salt- 1.6%
Sugar- 1%
Oil- 2%
Garlic pwd- .16%

Make enough dough for 4 balls. Hand knead until somewhere between a cottage cheese appearance and smooth. Place in a container at least twice it's size and cover with plastic wrap.  Store at room temp (70ish) 24 hours.  Ball gently, turning the dough under itself as few times as possible. Let dough balls cold ferment another 24 hours.  Temper, stretch and bake.

The yeast is a ballpark.  The goal is doubled to tripled dough after tempering. If the dough more than doubles/deflates pre-balling, scale the yeast back even further. If the dough is a bit under volume after tempering, temper it longer, and increase the yeast the next time. Also, if you can, watch the bulk.  If it doubles before 24 hours, ball it then rather than waiting.

Once you find success on the small scale level, there will need to be some trial and error scaling it up, but I think small scale, for now, is the way to go. You might even want to whip up 3 different batches at the same time- one with .04% yeast, one with .07% and one with .1%. If the .04% isn't show much activity during the bulk, give it 12-24 more hours bulk.

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 09:14:23 AM »
Yes! it was a hard, stale like quality...that hits the nail on the head.

I'm on my way in there this morning to try one more batch, sans low water level, with the other changes applied yesterday, just to see how much hydration content affected things.

Thought on malt though, for our traditional ferment times (24 hrs generally, 48 hrs if we are slow) would the idea of adding malt make a difference for me? I assume the answer would be yes given the distinct difference between the malted AT and the non malted organic.

Unless something wildly different and magical happens with todays fully hydrated test batch, Scott you are probably right that more sugar is not cutting it.

Thanks!

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 09:55:07 AM »
Thought on malt though, for our traditional ferment times (24 hrs generally, 48 hrs if we are slow) would the idea of adding malt make a difference for me? I assume the answer would be yes given the distinct difference between the malted AT and the non malted organic.

Annie, while the organic does have a little less protein than the AT, I guarantee you that the protein level is not the route of your problems. A little less water and the protein level is compensated for.  This is entirely a malt/enzyme issue. I'm confident that malt supplementation is the answer to the problem. Peter alluded to a less than 100% success rate with malt supplementation, and I don't doubt his numbers, but I think the odds are in your favor.  Since you appear to have issues sourcing flours, you also might have issues sourcing diastatic malt, but if you can track some down, I'm confident that there will be a magic percentage that will make everything happy.

Now, sourcing malt is more daunting/more advanced, imo, than a bulk, and, like I said before, I really think you should have a bulk in your repertoire, so I'm pushing you to try some bulk experimentation first, but if you really think that bulks are a dead end and/or you don't think you have space somewhere for a huge bucket of dough, start sourcing malt.

Edit: Beyond making the calls that Peter suggested, it also might be worthwhile contacting Giusto's and seeing what advice they might have.

Also, this is a bit more advanced than sourcing malt, but if you have trouble tracking malt down in your area, you might be able to find a company that will do mail order enzymes.  Enzymes are a far more powerful form of diastatic malt, and, because they're so concentrated, they may not be quite as expensive to ship.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 10:06:35 AM by scott123 »

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2013, 01:13:15 PM »
Just to be clear as I do some research, Diastatic Malt and Malted barley flour are one and the same, correct?

Thanks

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 01:43:42 PM »
Just to be clear as I do some research, Diastatic Malt and Malted barley flour are one and the same, correct?

Annie,

Diastatic malt can be made from grains other than barley but in your case what you are looking for is diastatic barley malt, which is the same thing as malted barley flour. You should also keep in mind that diastatic malt does not provide flavor or color in the finished crust. It is the natural sugars that are released from damaged starch by the amylase enzyme in diastatic barley malt that creates the residual sugars for crust coloration purposes and flavor. Non-diastatic malt is a form of sugar that can replace ordinary table sugar but it can impart a light tan color (or even darker depending on the form used) in the crumb that may not be desirable for a NY style pizza. What you want is diastatic malt.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 963
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 03:06:19 PM »
In addition to the lack of malt in the flour, there might also be a difference in flour/dough absorption properties between the two flours which could also contribute to the difference in oven spring properties as well as the bottom crisp. The best way to determine this would be to make doughs with 3% more and 3% less water/absorption and see if there is any apparent difference or improvement.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 03:33:48 PM »
The best way to determine this would be to make doughs with 3% more and 3% less water/absorption and see if there is any apparent difference or improvement.

I think, with the table leg issue, Annie's, by accident, already covered the reduction side of the experiment, by lowering the hydration by 2%.  But testing an increase of 3% isn't a bad idea. I might combine that with a hotter part of the oven, if possible, to counteract the slower bake caused by the additional water.

Offline AnnieK

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2013, 06:31:35 PM »
I'll have a test batch ready to try tomorrow at my normal 64% hydration, so I am curious how that turns out.

Interesting side note on malts; Scott, your comment about finding distribution for them was spot on, of course none of my vendors carry any. However! while discussing all of this with my crew this morning, one of my employees pipes up that I should try our homebrew supply store that's located across the street from us. The mention of the use of barley got her thinking. And, well, she was completely right, they carry diastalic malt as apparently it's a common ingredient in the use of making beer. So, now all I have to do is walk across the street and pick some up whenever needed.
Lovely.