Author Topic: Premium ingredient trading  (Read 4676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Premium ingredient trading
« on: February 05, 2013, 08:24:31 PM »
Would it be wrong to trade Ischia starter for other "Premium" ingredients? No intent to sell, just trade?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:07:26 PM by JD »
Josh


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12455
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 09:06:22 PM »
Trading Ischia for personal gain definitely crosses an ethical line, and is probably illegal.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 09:29:10 PM »
Why is that?  It is not patented, it is a wild strain of yeast.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 09:43:08 PM »
Trading Ischia for personal gain definitely crosses an ethical line, and is probably illegal.

What about giving it away? Is that still crossing a line?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21894
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 09:56:31 PM »
Marco (pizzanapoletana) provided the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures to sourdo.com and did not approve of others selling their versions of those cultures. See his post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3547.msg30153.html#msg30153. However, he was not against swapping the cultures, as he noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3575.msg30316.html#msg30316.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:20:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 10:02:08 PM »
Whether he approved or not, it is a wild culture, not a cultivated one, so I still don't see the problem.  Did everyone who has Ischia culture have it originate with him?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:21:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2013, 10:06:54 PM »
And just to be clear, I have no interest in the yeast itself, I am far too lazy to maintain a sourdough culture, but I am interested in the concept.  From his posts, it appears to be more of a matter of calling a contaminated product "Ischia" rather than the propagation of the stain itself for free or for profit.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:21:18 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2013, 10:08:11 PM »
Marco (pizzanapoletana) provided the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures to sourdo.com and did not approve of others selling their versions of those cultures. See his post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3547.msg30153.html#msg30153. However, he was not against swapping the cultures, as he noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3575.msg30316.html#msg30316.

Peter


I hope it's clear my intent was not to do anything illegal or unethical.

As a side note, I purchased my Ischia from a source on Amazon, not Sourdough.com. No idea if they are affiliated with each other, but I only received Ischia with my purchase not Camaldoi.

Regardless, it's not worth ruining my reputation to trade for different ingredients.

JD
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:29:23 PM by Pete-zza »
Josh

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2013, 10:18:41 PM »
Just did a search and apparently the seller I purchased the Ischia from no longer sells anything
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:21:56 PM by Pete-zza »
Josh

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12455
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 10:21:47 PM »
Why is that?  It is not patented, it is a wild strain of yeast.

If you captured it in the wild yourself, that would be one thing. Maybe it's not illegal, but it certainly strikes me as unethical to acquire the product of someone else's work reproduce it, and sell or trade it for your gain and possibly their loss.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21894
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 10:42:09 PM »
Marco once reported that he did not make anything from Sourdo's sales of the two Italian cultures. I think he wanted Sourdo, as the preeminent expert in sourdough cultures, to be the entity to commercially exploit the two cultures, not to have others come up with their own versions and sell them in competition with Sourdo. Marco didn't have to give the cultures to Sourdo. As Tom Lehmann mentions in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10273&p=73851&hilit=Sourdough+lehmann#p73851, sourdough cultures can have significant commercial value--thousands of dollars. Swapping cultures was as far as Marco was willing to go since that level of activity would not be likely to hurt Sourdo's sales to any material degree. Absent some form of legal protection of the two Italian cultures, there is not much that anyone can do to stop others from engaging in the sale of clones of the two cultures.

I agree with Craig that the issue is one of ethical behavior.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:22:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 07:53:13 AM »
Interesting.  I will have to read up on the ethics of sourdough culture.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:22:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JD

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
  • Location: NE Mississippi, but NY born & raised
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 08:00:21 AM »
Marco once reported that he did not make anything from Sourdo's sales of the two Italian cultures. I think he wanted Sourdo, as the preeminent expert in sourdough cultures, to be the entity to commercially exploit the two cultures, not to have others come up with their own versions and sell them in competition with Sourdo. Marco didn't have to give the cultures to Sourdo. As Tom Lehmann mentions in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10273&p=73851&hilit=Sourdough+lehmann#p73851, sourdough cultures can have significant commercial value--thousands of dollars. Swapping cultures was as far as Marco was willing to go since that level of activity would not be likely to hurt Sourdo's sales to any material degree. Absent some form of legal protection of the two Italian cultures, there is not much that anyone can do to stop others from engaging in the sale of clones of the two cultures.

I agree with Craig that the issue is one of ethical behavior.

Peter



I understand your point Peter.

As mentioned above when I purchased my starter, there was more than one available source to buy from. I thought it would be no different than trading Fleischmann's yeast. I did not know the back-story to Ischia, and now that I do I understand the ethical concerns. Further, it's interesting the company I originally purchased from no longer sells anything on Amazon. Perhaps it was a legal issue.

Hope my original concept is now understood.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:22:48 PM by Pete-zza »
Josh

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 08:38:09 AM »
Well I did a search and can not find anything on the ethics of swapping, buying or selling yeast cultures.  I DID find lot's that says that no matter what strain you think you are buying you will have local wild yeast predominately within a very short time, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:23:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21894
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 09:03:10 AM »
I didn't think to mention it earlier but Marco has a third starter culture, one that dates back to 1870. Marco decided not to release that culture to the wild, as he did with the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures. When he mentioned the existence of the third culture to the forum, one member went so far as to suggest that Marco release that culture to the world too. When Marco stood his ground, the member asked Marco if it was greed that kept him from doing so and said that he was baffled by Marco's reluctance to share his culture with others. The thread in which this exchange occurred eventually ended up being moved to the Moderator's board when Marco, it a fit of anger, deleted the content of several of his posts that rendered the thread unintelligible. In retrospect, it perhaps would have been a wiser course for Marco not to tease our members by telling them that he had another really good culture in the back room.

One of the major problems with sourdough cultures is that things that occur in nature can't be patented. Trademarks and copyright aren't going to be of much help in stopping cloning. So, that pretty much leaves trade secret as the best way to protect a culture. But once it is released, there is essentially no way left to stop anyone from cloning the culture. In Ed Wood's case, he at least has a solid reputation in the field, and he appears to be a good and trustworthy steward of the cultures that have been entrusted to him from sources all around the world. And he is a first generation custodian of the two Italian cultures. These considerations alone may be enough for most people to buy from him instead of from questionable or untested third parties who sell clones. And, for $20 for the two cultures (http://www.sourdo.com/home/cultures/italian-cultures-includes-two/), it isn't like Ed is ripping people off, although we have had some members complain about the price. It would be interesting to know why Amazon is no longer offering the competing cultures.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:23:24 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21894
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 09:21:34 AM »
Well I did a search and can not find anything on the ethics of swapping, buying or selling yeast cultures.

Tom,

I can't say that I am surprised. Sourdough cultures and their replication and sharing are not exactly the kinds of things that keep ethicists awake at night.

Ethics and legalities can coexist but some will place one above the other. Most often it is money that dictates which way to go. Knowing what I know about Marco's cultures, I would personally go with the ethics of the situation because I think it is important to support Ed Wood in all that he does to help others who want to use sourdough cultures in their lives.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:23:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12455
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2013, 09:21:44 AM »
Well I did a search and can not find anything on the ethics of swapping, buying or selling yeast cultures.  I DID find lot's that says that no matter what strain you think you are buying you will have local wild yeast predominately within a very short time, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.

The fact that it is a yeast culture is irrelevant. It would be no different than if someone wrote a piece of software but didn't copyright it, sold you a copy, and then you started selling copies to other people - maybe it's not illegal, but it is certainly unethical. It would be different if you went out and captured the yeast yourself just as it would be different if you independently wrote a different piece of software that did the same thing and then sold that.

There is a lot of wives tales about establish cultures such as Ischia getting taken over by local yeast, but I've never seen anything scientific to back up what amounts to no more than an often repeated myth. I've certainly not seen anything in my kitchen to suggest they get taken over.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:23:58 PM by Pete-zza »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3398
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 10:00:18 AM »
So is it also unethical to trade/give away seeds generated by purchased seeds?  Software is a lot different in that you actually created it as opposed to propagated it.  
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:24:12 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12455
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2013, 11:39:50 AM »
So is it also unethical to trade/give away seeds generated by purchased seeds?  Software is a lot different in that you actually created it as opposed to propagated it.  

I don't see the difference with software. We don't know the investment (time, money, development, advertising, etc.) sourdo.com has in the cultures. Keys stroking the keyboard is only one of many types of investment.

I see a distinction between giving and trading. Trading implies a quid pro quo. I don't see a difference between trading and selling.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:24:28 PM by Pete-zza »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6935
Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2013, 12:13:45 PM »
I see a distinction between giving and trading.

Earlier you spoke about the seller losing as a result of the profit of the trader. While giving doesn't profit the giver, doesn't giving still produce potential loss in the form of a potential lost sale? Potential loss isn't the same, morally, as potential loss + profit, but isn't any action that produces potential loss still crossing an ethical line?

Isn't giving away uncopyrighted software unethical?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:24:42 PM by Pete-zza »