Author Topic: Premium ingredient trading  (Read 7689 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 05:56:41 PM »
If anyone would like a New England starter that I cultivated for bread making, you can PM me with your address. It is a 1/2 whole wheat starter right now, but could easily be transitioned to all white. It likes pretty much any flour you give it, although I have been feeding it locally milled whole wheat flour and Caputo. It is a vigorous and hearty strain. I sometimes make pizza with it.

I have eight bags of the dried starter (thank you to Chau for suggesting the drying process) which I can give away. I keep a number of them for "backup" in case something happens.

John
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:26:17 PM by Pete-zza »


Online tinroofrusted

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 06:31:01 PM »
Well I did a search and can not find anything on the ethics of swapping, buying or selling yeast cultures.  I DID find lot's that says that no matter what strain you think you are buying you will have local wild yeast predominately within a very short time, which kind of makes the whole thing moot.

Maybe I don't know the whole background of this, but to me this seems to me that this is analogous to buying and or trading seeds, which people have been doing without ethical objection for millenia (at least until Monsanto started patenting GMO seeds). When the person who originally captures the yeast culture propagates it and transfers it to another person (let's call that person the "recipient"), the original propagator must know that the recipient is going to further propagate the yeast culture, since that is the nature of a yeast culture. The original propagator is really transferring the right to propagate the yeast culture along with the yeast itself.  And since a practically unlimited amount of the yeast culture can be made by anyone who has it, I don't see how the original propagator who transferred the yeast culture could possibly object to the recipient further propagating the yeast culture and giving or selling it to others.  In fact, unless the recipient has specifically agreed not to transfer or sell the culture, it seems it is more ethical than not to further transfer it (whether by gift or sale) since that increases the chance of the culture remaining strong and surviving.  

Feel free to point out any errors in my argument!  

UPDATE: I guess I could point out my own error.  If the website makes you agree not to further transfer the culture before you buy, you've agreed, and transferring it in violation of that condition would of course be unethical.  Interesting to consider what the obligation might be of someone who receives the yeast culture as a gift from someone who bought it from Sourdo. Would that person then be ethically free to commercialize the yeast, since they received it as a gift (which is not prohibited by the website language quoted above) and never agreed not to commercialize the yeast culture?  

Regards,

TinRoof
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:26:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 07:11:50 PM »
Interesting to consider what the obligation might be of someone who receives the yeast culture as a gift from someone who bought it from Sourdo. Would that person then be ethically free to commercialize the yeast, since they received it as a gift (which is not prohibited by the website language quoted above) and never agreed not to commercialize the yeast culture?  

No he would not be free to propagate and sell the culture. That person would be as ethically bound as the person who purchased the culture. It's a matter of substance vs. form.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 08:26:50 PM by Pete-zza »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 07:52:15 PM »
I agree with Craig.

The language "I will not allow cultures purchased from Sourdoughs International to be reproduced for resale" is fairly tight since it does not say who does the reproduction for sale. Any purchaser who purchased the culture from SI has contractually agreed not to do it and that duty should extend to any third party, whether it is to a donee as a gift or to someone else for the purposes of reproducing it. The language does not preclude a purchaser from sharing or swapping the culture so long as there is no sale. That was fine with Marco who, as earlier noted, gave the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures to Ed Wood at SI for purposes of commercial exploitation.

Peter

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 08:34:01 PM »
I will disagree with a lot of this.  First, a wild culture that is captured is not intellectual property.  Second, requiring you to agree to not cultivate a first generation cultivar MAY be legal and ethical, but after that, it is no longer the product you bought, it is a commingling of what you bought and what you introduced.

This differs from intellectual property in that if you buy software and improve upon it (commingle), then you are still legally and ethically bound to not sell it in that the original patented/copyrighted code is still an integral part of the item.  This is not so with "wild" code, that could be considered to be open source code.  An example would be the commercial versions of Linux.

If you were to buy and dry the Ischa starter from a seller, then resell that culture, you would be in violation of their terms and conditions.  If you were to buy and grow the culture, then dry and resell it from the first generation, you may be (very narrowly) violating the terms and conditions (and ethics), but after that you are selling a unique, un-patented, non copyrighted mixture of a specific (Ischia) and local yeast and bacteria culture.

From my reading, it is not really the yeast anyway, it is the symbiotic bacteria that distinguish the culture.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 08:46:20 PM »
If you were to buy and dry the Ischa starter from a seller, then resell that culture, you would be in violation of their terms and conditions.  If you were to buy and grow the culture, then dry and resell it from the first generation, you may be (very narrowly) violating the terms and conditions (and ethics), but after that you are selling a unique, un-patented, non copyrighted mixture of a specific (Ischia) and local yeast and bacteria culture.
Tom,

I interpret the term "reproduce" to mean that the culture has the same characteristics as the original. If the reproduced culture does not have those characteristics, whether it is because of changes introduced locally or in any other way, then the end product would not be "reproduced" in my opinion. In such cases, Ed Wood might not be overly concerned with what happens to that end product.

Peter

Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 08:52:24 PM »
I agree with tscar and also if that legal/ethical obligation extends to a third party where does it stop? If that third party gave some to another person, and then that person gave some to someone else, etc. Would a 10th party be ethicly or leaglly obligated to not sell the culture for profit?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 09:18:52 PM »
Trevor,

I would say yes but any legal restriction can break down eventually, no matter how carefully the restriction is drafted from a legal standpoint, and especially with a sequence such as you described. I'm not sure that I would want to buy a reproduced culture from the tenth person who has made a reproduction. Or even the second reproducer. Of course, I would not know where in the chain the reproducing entity entered the business. Not knowing that alone would discourage me from dealing with such a reproducer. It's a pig in a poke.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 09:28:00 PM »
I agree with tscar and also if that legal/ethical obligation extends to a third party where does it stop? If that third party gave some to another person, and then that person gave some to someone else, etc. Would a 10th party be ethicly or leaglly obligated to not sell the culture for profit?

Would those of you who think it is OK to propagate and sell Ed's cultures feel the same way and be so quick to rationalize it if it was your business and livelihood that was affected?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 09:30:54 PM »
If my business was selling wild cultures, I would anticipate and plan for it in my business model.

That is to say, if you are selling something that is endemic and free, then your business model must include a value added service.  In the case of this particular example, your business model would include the proviso that you sold the TRUE and unadulterated culture, not one that was allowed to change.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 09:33:20 PM by Tscarborough »

Offline JD

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 09:31:23 PM »
Trevor,

I would say yes but any legal restriction can break down eventually, no matter how carefully the restriction is drafted from a legal standpoint, and especially with a sequencer such as you described. I'm not sure that I would want to buy a reproduced culture from the tenth person who has made a reproduction. Or even the second reproducer. Of course, I would not know where in the chain the reproducing entity entered the business. Not knowing that alone would discourage me from dealing with such a reproducer. It's a pig in a poke.

Peter


This is now what I'm afraid happened to me

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 09:42:25 PM »
If my business was selling wild cultures, I would anticipate and plan for it in my business model.

That is to say, if you are selling something that is endemic and free, then your business model must include a value added service.  In the case of this particular example, your business model would include the proviso that you sold the TRUE and unadulterated culture, not one that was allowed to change.

That's not what I asked, and if the culture was endemic and free, you wouldn't need to propagate Ed's to sell. You would simply go get the endemic and free one but you can't because it isn't - practically speaking anyway.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 09:53:39 PM »
Does anyone think when I sent the dried out Ischia starter to some members here on the forum that I was doing anything wrong?  I don't want to get mixed-up in doing something unethical and somehow hurt Ed Woods business. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 10:08:33 PM »
Does anyone think when I sent the dried out Ischia starter to some members here on the forum that I was doing anything wrong?  I don't want to get mixed-up in doing something unethical and somehow hurt Ed Woods business. 
Norma,

The restriction imposed by SI applies to reproducing the cultures for purposes of resale. I assume that you are not charging the people to whom you have been sending dried forms of the Ischia culture. If not, you should be OK. Ed Wood knows full well that purchasers of his cultures for personal, home use are going to share them with others.

Peter

Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 10:18:37 PM »
You all make great points. I would never do anything to effect someones livelihood. However, If I was going to start a buisness, I wouldn't care how negatively I effefected the other businesses I would be competing. I'm not doing any of those things, just saying.

Offline norma427

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 10:33:10 PM »
Norma,

The restriction imposed by SI applies to reproducing the cultures for purposes of resale. I assume that you are not charging the people to whom you have been sending dried forms of the Ischia culture. If not, you should be OK. Ed Wood knows full well that purchasers of his cultures for personal, home use are going to share them with others.

Peter

Peter,

No, I never charged any member for the dried out Ischia starter.  I don't even know though if I will send any more dried out starters.  Just thinking about it makes me wonder.  :-\

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 10:34:39 PM »
If I was going to start a buisness, I wouldn't care how negatively I effefected the other businesses I would be competing.

Even if your actions were unethical?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2013, 11:25:39 PM »
Strictly business wise, if it was legal, then yes even if it was unethical as long as it was legal. With regards to buisness, I'm trying to make money not freinds. I would also expect my oppenets to try and do the same to me. Outside of buisness or my livelihood, I defintly would not do anything unethical.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2013, 04:39:47 AM »
Strictly business wise, if it was legal, then yes even if it was unethical as long as it was legal. With regards to buisness, I'm trying to make money not freinds. I would also expect my oppenets to try and do the same to me. Outside of buisness or my livelihood, I defintly would not do anything unethical.

This post makes me sad.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2013, 07:47:18 AM »
Me too.  I'm talking about giving/trading among friends, not doing business.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2013, 08:40:05 AM »
Strictly business wise, if it was legal, then yes even if it was unethical as long as it was legal. With regards to buisness, I'm trying to make money not freinds. I would also expect my oppenets to try and do the same to me.

It's sad you think that is how business should be done. I see you're only 25. Hopefully as you get older and spend some time in business you'll learn and appreciate why this is wrong even if your competitors are unethical.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2013, 09:32:13 AM »
Strictly business wise, if it was legal, then yes even if it was unethical as long as it was legal. With regards to buisness, I'm trying to make money not freinds. I would also expect my oppenets to try and do the same to me. Outside of buisness or my livelihood, I defintly would not do anything unethical.

Your reputation has far more value than you realize. Some people have to learn this the hard way.
 

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2013, 09:43:07 AM »
Do good morals = good ethics?
Do bad morals = bad ethics?

Which is more important, or are they not mutually exclusive? ???
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2013, 09:54:29 AM »
To me, Morals=personal, ethics=business.  They are equivalent terms for different spheres of behavior.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2013, 10:09:50 AM »
Surprised this has not been mentioned yet,  sourdough starters should be free or at least nearly free.  I do understand why Marco gave these to ed wood,  probably so he could get them back if he ever needed to,  but lets face it selling a 1/2 ounce of flour for 20 bucks....  I used this oregon trail starter for a long time it is excellent for bread and pretty solid for pizza too.

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