Author Topic: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA  (Read 8498 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 11:51:28 PM »
0.0055%

Chau, thats interesting about the lack of browning.    Im not sure I have noticed that, but right around the time I started testing ascorbic acid again I also stopped blending in non malted flours (only because I ran out) ... so ... .maybe it does slow down browning, but I dont always consider that a bad thing (700 floor temps etc.)    
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 11:56:26 PM by scott r »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2013, 12:03:25 AM »
0.0055%

Chau, thats interesting about the lack of browning.    Im not sure I have noticed that, but right around the time I started testing ascorbic acid again I also stopped blending in non malted flours (only because I ran out) ... so ... .maybe it does slow down browning, but I dont always consider that a bad thing (700 floor temps etc.)    
Scott,
Is aspirin or vinegar a suitable substitute?
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Offline scott r

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2013, 12:41:20 AM »
I bought my ascorbic acid from the king arthur catalog, and at the amounts I use I think I will make it through my entire lifetime with that one bottle.    I dont think I would bother trying to crush up aspirin.... I think there are fillers etc. in pills, and honestly, I think its really important that you dont use too much ascorbic acid, so with a crushed pill how do you really know how much you are getting? 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2013, 09:02:02 AM »
Scott,
Is aspirin or vinegar a suitable substitute?

Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. Asprin is acetylsalicylic acid, and vinegar is acetic acid, so I'm not sure why there would be a reason to think either would be a suitable substitute. While the acid might help the yeast, it is the ascorbic part that is important here. It is the oxidizing action of bromate that you are seeking to replicate. Ironically, ascorbic acid is a reducing agent (anti-oxidant) which is why it is used to keep fruit from turning brown. However, when exposed to oxygen during mixing, it forms dehydroascorbic which is an oxidizing agent.

It's not hard to come by pure ascorbic acid. I'd be surprised if most large drug stores with big vitamin departments didn't sell 100% ascorbic acid. I'd guess places like GNC almost certainly do. Even if you can only find it in pill form, if you have a scale that is suitably accurate for measuring the ascorbic acid for your dough, you could also likely use it to weigh the pill to find what % is ascorbic acid. The label will tell you how many mg is in each pill. Divide by the pill weight and you have a % you can multiply by pill powder weight to figure out how much to use. You do not want to use a chewable tablet.

Speaking of scales, it the quantity is as sensitive as Scott suggests, a scale with 0.001 resolution may be necessary.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2013, 09:08:12 AM »
You might want to warn some of your guests if you are using acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) in your pizza dough ---especially kids who might develop Reye's syndrome.

On the other hand ascorbic acid is ubiquitous and safe for probably everyone.

John K
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2013, 09:19:13 AM »
You might want to warn some of your guests if you are using acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) in your pizza dough ---especially kids who might develop Reye's syndrome.

On the other hand ascorbic acid is ubiquitous and safe for probably everyone.

John K

Why would anyone put asprin in their dough in the first place? Where did that idea even come from?

Like bromate, there won't be any ascorbic acid left in the bread after baking.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2013, 09:39:04 AM »
Sorry John K and Craig.  I had meant to say Vit C tablet and not aspirin.  Read it awhile ago and my memory is a bit faulty.  FWIW, I have not tried acorbic acid or vitamin C in dough.  Only vinegar and that was for making Vietnamese baguettes. 

Chau

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2013, 09:46:22 AM »
Why would anyone put asprin in their dough in the first place? Where did that idea even come from?

Like bromate, there won't be any ascorbic acid left in the bread after baking.
Craig,

It looks like Alton Brown was one place: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1029.msg9176.html#msg9176, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4977.msg42129.html#msg42129 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3388.msg28666.html#msg28666.

Peter

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2013, 09:47:41 AM »
Chau,

No problem! You may want to take an Aspirin for that memory problem! Keep that blood flowing nice and smoothly! :-D

John K
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2013, 09:59:30 AM »
Thanks Peter.  John K, I don't feel as bad now that I know Alton and his editor(s) made the same mistake.     ;D

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 10:04:32 AM »
Thanks Peter.  John K, I don't feel as bad now that I know Alton and his editor(s) made the same mistake.     ;D

No offense to Alton (in other arenas), but I would come to you with questions about dough and pizza 1000 times before I went to him.  :chef:

John K
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2013, 11:05:07 AM »
I just wanted to throw in my two cents about acids and browning. What Chau observed is correct, the introduction of acids into dough, or any other food product, does inhibit browning. While I don't want to get too biochemical, the lower the pH the more protonated amino acids become, slowing the rate of Maillard forming products. What this means for pizza or bread making is for a given tempuratue, acidic doughs will need to bake much longer in the oven to achieve the same brownness as less acidic doughs. However, one can try to compensate for the acidity by reducing the recipes hydration, upping the protien or sugar content in the dough, and increase the baking temperature.

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2013, 11:14:28 AM »
Jimmy, just to be clear though - the addition of ascorbic acid - like potassium bromate is not about browning.
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2013, 03:12:51 PM »
Quote
Jimmy, just to be clear though - the addition of ascorbic acid - like potassium bromate is not about browning.


I should have clarified, I was responding to specifically to the addition of acids and its residual effect on crust coloration in replies 49 & 50. Was reading and writing quickly and forgot to insert quotes.  
Jim
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2013, 05:09:23 PM »
So what exactly will a teeny tiny pinch of ascorbic acid powder do to a NY style pizza crust...I do have a scale that can measure .001 gram. Thanks!
Bob
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2013, 05:16:58 PM »
So what exactly will a teeny tiny pinch of ascorbic acid powder do to a NY style pizza crust...I do have a scale that can measure .001 gram. Thanks!
Bob

It might give you a little better oven spring and crumb texture.
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scott123

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2013, 05:30:42 PM »
It might give you a little better oven spring and crumb texture.

Maybe  ;D And this is only for non bromated flour.  If you have access to and a willingness to use bromated flour, ascorbic acid is unnecessary.

Re; browning and acid.  You're only going to get a perceptible difference in browning at a considerably lower pH. With the quantities Scott is describing, browning inhibition is of no concern. It's only when you get into sourdoughs where browning inhibition starts being a player.

Re; measuring.  A highly accurate scale is helpful, but a smidgeon measuring spoon will do the trick.  It's very easy to do a half smidgeon by tilting the spoon to the side. I would think that for most multi dough ball recipes, this would suffice.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 05:32:52 PM by scott123 »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2013, 05:36:59 PM »
0.0055%

Chau, thats interesting about the lack of browning.    Im not sure I have noticed that, but right around the time I started testing ascorbic acid again I also stopped blending in non malted flours (only because I ran out) ... so ... .maybe it does slow down browning, but I dont always consider that a bad thing (700 floor temps etc.)    
.005 for 20 oz. of NY dough be about right?
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Offline JD

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2013, 05:46:39 PM »
Re; browning and acid.  You're only going to get a perceptible difference in browning at a considerably lower pH. With the quantities Scott is describing, browning inhibition is of no concern. It's only when you get into sourdoughs where browning inhibition starts being a player.

I have this issue when using Ischia to make NY style. Are there any conditioners (besides sugars) that you can recommend?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2013, 05:48:16 PM »
FYI - I checked my local grocery store, and they carry 100% ascorbic acid powder in the vitamin section next to the vitamin C.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2013, 10:27:55 PM »
Guys, since I dont have a scale for small units, what I have been doing is this...   Literally a tiny dash... I mean VERY little in a batch of dough with 5lbs of flour.     I could be crazy, but it seems like if I do two dashes or three the dough gets tougher and tougher.    I still need to work with it more to be sure about this, so I have a new scale showing up this week.  I have been seeing some very bromate like qualities with my non bromated flours augmented with ascorbic acid when I dont overdo it.  The percentage I quoted is just what General mills has decided to use with thier flours that contain ascorbic acid (sold mostly to the west coast and california where bomate is banned).

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2013, 10:33:15 PM »
I have been meaning to ask:

What is the issue (?problem) with bromated flour?

Feel free to point me to the most appropriate thread. Thanks and pardon the ignorance.

JohnK
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 10:47:36 PM by Serpentelli »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2013, 10:36:09 PM »
I have been meaning to ask:

What is the issue (?problem) with bromated flour?

Thanks and pardon he ignorance.

JohnK

Causes the big C....so say some grant needing scientists.  ;D
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2013, 11:35:54 PM »
I could be crazy, but it seems like if I do two dashes or three the dough gets tougher and tougher. 

The dough when you are mixing it, or the baked product?  
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Re: Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2013, 11:36:25 PM »
Causes the big C....

in rodents, in massive quantities- just a like a bunch of other foods that most people consider to be harmless (cinnamon, nutmeg, black pepper and basil). There's never been any connection between bromate and cancer in humans. And this is even true for flour workers that are exposed to greater amounts of it than consumers.