Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA

[Serpentelli]

Thanks Peter.  John K, I don't feel as bad now that I know Alton and his editor(s) made the same mistake.     

No offense to Alton (in other arenas), but I would come to you with questions about dough and pizza 1000 times before I went to him. 

John K

[JimmyG]

I just wanted to throw in my two cents about acids and browning. What Chau observed is correct, the introduction of acids into dough, or any other food product, does inhibit browning. While I don't want to get too biochemical, the lower the pH the more protonated amino acids become, slowing the rate of Maillard forming products. What this means for pizza or bread making is for a given tempuratue, acidic doughs will need to bake much longer in the oven to achieve the same brownness as less acidic doughs. However, one can try to compensate for the acidity by reducing the recipes hydration, upping the protien or sugar content in the dough, and increase the baking temperature.

Jim

[TXCraig1]

Jimmy, just to be clear though - the addition of ascorbic acid - like potassium bromate is not about browning.

[JimmyG]

Jimmy, just to be clear though - the addition of ascorbic acid - like potassium bromate is not about browning.

I should have clarified, I was responding to specifically to the addition of acids and its residual effect on crust coloration in replies 49 & 50. Was reading and writing quickly and forgot to insert quotes.  
Jim

[Chicago Bob]

So what exactly will a teeny tiny pinch of ascorbic acid powder do to a NY style pizza crust...I do have a scale that can measure .001 gram. Thanks!
Bob

[TXCraig1]

So what exactly will a teeny tiny pinch of ascorbic acid powder do to a NY style pizza crust...I do have a scale that can measure .001 gram. Thanks!
Bob

It might give you a little better oven spring and crumb texture.

[scott123]

It might give you a little better oven spring and crumb texture.

Maybe   And this is only for non bromated flour.  If you have access to and a willingness to use bromated flour, ascorbic acid is unnecessary.

Re; browning and acid.  You're only going to get a perceptible difference in browning at a considerably lower pH. With the quantities Scott is describing, browning inhibition is of no concern. It's only when you get into sourdoughs where browning inhibition starts being a player.

Re; measuring.  A highly accurate scale is helpful, but a smidgeon measuring spoon will do the trick.  It's very easy to do a half smidgeon by tilting the spoon to the side. I would think that for most multi dough ball recipes, this would suffice.

[Chicago Bob]

0.0055%

Chau, thats interesting about the lack of browning.    Im not sure I have noticed that, but right around the time I started testing ascorbic acid again I also stopped blending in non malted flours (only because I ran out) ... so ... .maybe it does slow down browning, but I dont always consider that a bad thing (700 floor temps etc.)    

.005 for 20 oz. of NY dough be about right?

[JD]

Re; browning and acid.  You're only going to get a perceptible difference in browning at a considerably lower pH. With the quantities Scott is describing, browning inhibition is of no concern. It's only when you get into sourdoughs where browning inhibition starts being a player.

I have this issue when using Ischia to make NY style. Are there any conditioners (besides sugars) that you can recommend?

[TXCraig1]

FYI - I checked my local grocery store, and they carry 100% ascorbic acid powder in the vitamin section next to the vitamin C.

[scott r]

Guys, since I dont have a scale for small units, what I have been doing is this...   Literally a tiny dash... I mean VERY little in a batch of dough with 5lbs of flour.     I could be crazy, but it seems like if I do two dashes or three the dough gets tougher and tougher.    I still need to work with it more to be sure about this, so I have a new scale showing up this week.  I have been seeing some very bromate like qualities with my non bromated flours augmented with ascorbic acid when I dont overdo it.  The percentage I quoted is just what General mills has decided to use with thier flours that contain ascorbic acid (sold mostly to the west coast and california where bomate is banned).

[Serpentelli]

I have been meaning to ask:

What is the issue (?problem) with bromated flour?

Feel free to point me to the most appropriate thread. Thanks and pardon the ignorance.

JohnK

[Chicago Bob]

I have been meaning to ask:

What is the issue (?problem) with bromated flour?

Thanks and pardon he ignorance.

JohnK

Causes the big C....so say some grant needing scientists. 

[TXCraig1]

I could be crazy, but it seems like if I do two dashes or three the dough gets tougher and tougher. 

The dough when you are mixing it, or the baked product?  

[scott123]

Causes the big C....

in rodents, in massive quantities- just a like a bunch of other foods that most people consider to be harmless (cinnamon, nutmeg, black pepper and basil). There's never been any connection between bromate and cancer in humans. And this is even true for flour workers that are exposed to greater amounts of it than consumers.

[Chicago Bob]

in rodents, in massive quantities- just a like a bunch of other foods that most people consider to be harmless (cinnamon, nutmeg, black pepper and basil). There's never been any connection between bromate and cancer in humans. And this is even true for flour workers that are exposed to greater amounts of it than consumers.

I wouldn't wanna do a line of it but I eat it all the time and Bob is still here...right?!?!...

[TXCraig1]

in rodents, in massive quantities- just a like a bunch of other foods that most people consider to be harmless (cinnamon, nutmeg, black pepper and basil). There's never been any connection between bromate and cancer in humans. And this is even true for flour workers that are exposed to greater amounts of it than consumers.

Unless they are eating raw dough, consumers probably aren't exposed to any bromate.

[scott123]

Unless they are eating raw dough, consumers probably aren't exposed to any bromate.

Actually, it's parts per million in flour, and, in the finished product, it can be detected in parts per billion- at about the same concentration that many municipalities (including all of California) allow in their drinking water.

[Chicago Bob]

Who benefits from the "bromate scare"....?

[scott r]

I hope you guys are right, and that there is nothing to fear with bromate.   I have had many bags of bromated flour go through my hands over the years, but I have to admit it does still scare me a little.... To the point that when I started having babies crawling around I stopped having the bromate in the house.

Sicilian pizza can obviously be the worst culprit, but I know even pinos (the pizzeria this thread is about ....uggh... sorry for thread derailment john!) has a definite layer of semi raw dough right where the wet sauce touches it.  This film can be very thin, but I do think its always there to some extent.   Pizza its not exactly 100% baked through like bread would be.       

The only reason I brought up ascorbic acid is that john was using a non bromated flour to try to copy a pizzeria that uses bromated flour.  I think its easier for most home bakers to have a small container of ascorbic acid around for these pizza styles than to buy big 50lb bags of flour (which is the only way to get bromated flour where john and I live)  It seems safer too