Author Topic: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?  (Read 7383 times)

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Offline canadianbacon

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Gluten morning guys  ;D

I have some doubts about the yeast I am using.

Can somebody give me a bit of info about this type of yeast that you see below ?
I have never used anything BUT this yeast for my pizza and bread making.

Now this is the interesting part, I've always detected a "yeasty" taste whenever I make
bread with this yeast, but not so when I make pizza ( as the sauce etc masks the yeast )

my mother says that my bread always smells a bit like beer ( talking about a yeasty flavour ),
and my wife also agrees.  

The very interesting thing is this, a nice lady on another forum told me the other day that she steers clear
of this yeast just because of this reason.

Can anyone alse chime in on this ? - have you tried this yeast and did you find the same thing ?

Also, something I wish to know, - is this really the kind of yeast I'm supposed to be using ?

I don't really know the difference between the different yeasts, this bottle says "Active Dry Yeast"
is this the same as Instant yeast ?

I think what I would appreciate is a simple schoolroom lesson on the differences between these
yeasts. I have a feeling I'm not using the correct type of yeast for pizza nor bread.

Any help appreciated in understanding the different yeasts  :)

Mark

« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 02:24:08 PM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2006, 12:46:28 PM »
Mark,

I couldn't see the type of yeast from your post, but you may want to take a look at the following terms in the Glossary (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html): Active Dry Yeast (or ADY), Compressed Yeast, and Instant Dry Yeast (or IDY). If you have any questions after reading about those forms of yeast, maybe I or one of our other members can help fill in the gaps.

I have learned from personal experience that yeast producers are very guarded about their yeast products and are not particularly helpful to consumers about the technical aspects of their yeasts. They also offer different products to professionals than to home bakers, with different instructions on using the yeasts. For example, for home bakers the instructions are to use a lot of yeast and water on the warm side (e.g., above 120 degrees F in some cases). This is done intentionally--to insure success on the part of the average home baker. From what I have read, professionals are not given the same instructions. They know better. The yeast companies will also never tell the home baker to buy their yeast in the one-pound bags. They would prefer that home bakers keep buying the three-packs and little bottles in the supermarket. You can throw away most of a one-pound bag and still come out ahead of buying the packets and small bottles of yeast. Consistent with the attitudes that yeast producers have toward home bakers, you will notice that their websites are all oriented to the home baker, with recipes and other content that is geared to home bakers.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 12:49:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline David

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 12:51:49 PM »
This link should give you more information than you will need on this question and others.Go to the Main Page and search for " Yeast - A Treatise ":

http://www.theartisan.net/TheArtisanMain.htm

Great,informative site,
                                   David
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 12:55:05 PM by David »
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 02:36:14 PM »
Hello again, well darn, I came back and realized the image I had posted didn't get attached... so I guess
the post didn't make too much sense.  I've edited my post and the image is now added.

Thanks for the info Pete and David.

Going to go se those links now.

By the way, from the image of yeast, can you now tell if I'm using the correct yeast for pizza ?

I am hoping that somebody on the group can give an "yes" that they also have some "yeasty" overpowering
flavours when using this yeast, vs some other type of yeast this IDY yeast that Peter talked about.

thanks for your time gentlemen  ;D

Mark
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 04:40:35 PM »
Mark,

That's one of those "little bottles" that I was referring to. There's nothing wrong with using that yeast for pizza dough or any other baked good. It's active dry yeast (ADY). With the amount of baking you do, you may want to look for a one-pound bag if it is available in Canada. To see what the different one-pound bags of yeast look like, go here: http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/Yeast___Fleischmann_s_Instant.html. I use the SAF Red instant dry yeast. The Red Star active dry yeast is really an SAF product, since Red Star is owned by SAF (Lesaffre). You should feel free to pick either ADY or IDY. They both work well.

Peter

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 07:10:40 PM »
Hi Peter,

I could slap myself now..... do you know how long I have been buying yeast in those little jars ? .... forever.

They are almost $5 a bottle here.  They are also only 113 grams.  Considering 1 pound = 454 grams, you can see how much that bottle is.... yup it's about as expensive as gold !  :-\

Anyway a woman on another forum who lives in Canada got wind of those little bottles I was buying and actually got her husband to go to a local bakery and buy me a FULL POUND of yeast !  ;D

Talk about an amazing woman ! .... I'm really excited, and the yeast should be here anytime this week as she sent
it out I believe on Friday. 

I should actually slap myself, as when I was in school we bought huge cans of this stuff, and I just never thought to seek out a source on my own to get it.  In any event, thanks for pointing that out to me also, if she hadn't just told me this, I would thank you very much and having you over for beers this weekend  8)

Thanks for info on the type of yeast.  The yeast she is sending is the stuff you use, I don't need to hydrate it in anything before using it, so it's going to be fun to try it out.

thanks again for jumping in on this again for me Peter.  I appreciate that.
Thanks for that link you provided.  Oh and guess what, - the best part ? .... the lady told me that she paid
about $5 for a pound of that yeast... that's just amazing and great news for me !

Mark.

P.S. - the bread I did is done, and has been devoured my myself and the kids.
You can see the final bread here: http://tinyurl.com/9x2xx

« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 07:12:26 PM by canadianbacon »
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 07:33:07 PM »
 Hi canadianbacon,
 A nice job on the bread, i would like a slice with some nutella. I know you will be very pleased with the IDY, it is much easier to use and more forgiving. Be sure to store it in a cool dry place.     Chiguy

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 09:18:52 PM »
Hi chiguy,

Thanks  ;D  I haven't made bread in awhile, but it was worth it.

The only problem.... now that I will be getting a lot of cheap yeast, that means I'll be making
a lot of bread.... bad thing about it is that I'll gain wait.

I have a real soft spot for freshly baked bread... geez all of that bread is almost gone now, just
at dinner tonight.  Man I can't say no to fresh warm bread  :D

I bought a FoodSaver brand vacuum machine last year, and used it once packaging up some of my
beer yeast, so I'm going to do the same thing with the yeast when it arrives... I think I'll fill my little bottle
of it, and then vacuum pack the other 3/4 of it... I think this is the best thing to do.

should I be keeping the yeast in the fridge ? ... is there any advantage to that ? or just down in the
basement would be ok ?
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 09:37:05 PM »
 Hi Canbacon,
 On the package of SAF yeast it states, FOR OPTIMUM RESULTS REFRIDGREATE AFTER OPENING. I believe if you left it out after opening it has about a 30 day shelf life. I am not positive of this timeline, so don't quote me. I am not sure how much you understand about IDY, but it can be added to the dry ingrediant's, it breaks down faster during mixing.It also activates at lower temperatures, there is no need to proof in warm water.
 
The nice part about baking you're own bread :chef:, is that you can omit those SAT fat oils that are used in commercial bread baking.             Chiguy

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 10:25:25 PM »
Hi chiguy,

Thanks much for the info, great info about the yeast. I will make sure now to make sure I do a vacuum pack on it
after I open it up - right after I open it in fact and will get it into the fridge.

Hmm this yeast is interesting, so I just add it dry to my flour, and then add in my water and away I go eh ?

so there's no need to heat that water.... now isn't that nice..... do you suggest however heating the water slightly ?
as yeast likes a warmer environment ?

Also I'm assuming that in order for the yeast to activate it MUST be in contact with the water... so in othe words I could
actually add the yeast in my mixer bowl say an hour before I am ready to start...  urr I mean add the yeast and flour, salt,
and not worry about it doing anything until I add the water in eh ? ... is that about it ( do I have this about right ? )

Ah yeah, that's so true about the fats... nice to be able to control that.

thanks again for your help  ;D

I am not sure how much you understand about IDY, but it can be added to the dry ingrediant's, it breaks down faster during mixing.It also activates at lower temperatures, there is no need to proof in warm water.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 10:52:10 PM »
Mark,

On the yeast storage issue, you might want to take a look at Reply #2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2344.0.html. I don't think you need to vacuum seal the yeast--just follow the recommendations given at the above link.

Both forms of dry yeast will tolerate warm water. However, IDY, once added to the flour, will tolerate higher water temperatures, from 120-130 degrees F, than will ADY, which requires a lower temperature for proofing purposes (105-115 degrees F). Neither form of yeast likes to be shocked with cold water. This usually isn't a problem if IDY is mixed with the flour first or if ADY that has been proofed in warm water is added to the cooler water just before the flour is added.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2006, 11:57:21 PM »
 Hi canadianbacon,
  The IDY is a very tolerable yeast to temperatures both higher and lower. This is why it is used by many pizzerias and bakery's, the yeast is very forgiving. I have never tried to use it with higher temperatures. There is no point, except to speed up fermentation. I use room temperature water(70F) always when using IDY. By using this temperature water with a finished dough temperature around 80F, you can leave it on the counter to rise(4 hour or longer), or you could retard the dough overnight or longer in the fridge. I would tend to be no higher than 0.75% Yeast to Flour ratio. The retarded method produces the best finished crust and is easier to measure and control the fermentation. If using the retarded dough method i would tend to keep the water under 75F. The finished dough temperture should be between 72-84F. Using too warm of water will easiely put you over this temp range.
 Yes, there are many pizzeria's that have Flour,Salt,Sugar & IDY blended in the same bag. There are companies(Blendex) that calculate the bakers percentages and blend the ingrediant's for the pizzeria. It comes in a 40-50lb bag marked for the pizzeria. All the pizzeria has too do is weigh the water. Everyone has different ingrediant sequencing for pizza. For a NY style i will add water,salt & sugar, then add the flour and the IDY on top of flour. If you were using autolyse the sequncing will be different.   
 I NEVER ADD THE YEAST DIRECTLY TO THE WATER, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE ACTIVATION.
  I NEVER HEAT THE WATER, NOT EVEN A LITTLE,ESPECIALLY WHEN USING THE RETARDED   DOUGH METHOD.
 I ALWAYS USE AT OR NEAR ROOM TEMPERATURE WATER(70F) GIVE OR TAKE A FEW DEGREES.
 THE IDY IS VERY EASY TO USE AND CAN ALSO GO RIGHT FROM THE FRIDGE INTO THE MIXING BOWL.
 I hope this covers some of the basics, like i said it is a very forgiving yeast. If you have any more question just ask i am sure  they will be answered. Oh yeah, get ready to toss the bottle of ADY, once you try this stuff you won't want to mess with all that water heating business.   chiguy
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 12:10:53 AM by chiguy »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2006, 08:00:54 AM »
chiguy,

Some people believe that all forms of yeast, including IDY, should be proofed in water. In some cases IDY is proofed in water because the baker using it was in the habit of doing so with ADY or fresh yeast before switching to IDY. But, with others, such as member pieguy, who is an expert on Neapolitan pizzas, there is the belief that proofing of all yeasts helps to improve dispersion of the yeast within the dough and speed up its activation. I, on occasion, have mixed IDY in with the water because I was using less than 1/8 teaspoon in a large amount of flour and was afraid that I wouldn't be able to disperse the IDY uniformly if I tried stirring that trivial amount within the enormously greater amount of flour. But, like you, under normal circumstances, I just add the IDY to the flour.

I think it also helps to understand that IDY has more active cells (about 30 percent fewer dead cells) than ADY, so it doesn't need the water to get through all the detritus that is present with ADY. Also, IDY is a different strain and has a smaller particle size than ADY and can hydrate faster when water and flour come together. Some people will occasionally try to treat ADY like IDY and add it directly to the flour, but when I tried that I found that the particles of ADY did not hydrate and I could see the particles as specks throughout the dough. I concluded that it is best just to stick with the basic rules promulgated by the yeast producers for using both forms of yeast.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 08:38:04 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 10:57:39 AM »
 Hi Peter,
 I am aware of some of the things you mentioned. When i say i never add the yeast to the water, this is too strong of statement. I have tossed a tiny pinch in with the water when using really low amounts like yourself. I have never had any problem adding yeast to the dry ingrediants, and follow the sequencing according to what i learned from Leahmans class. If i add the salt to the water then add the IDY, it can impair yeast function which i know you are aware of. This is what i have learned and suggested the same sequence for CanBac. I did not see any reason to draw comparisons between ADY and IDY with CanBacon, since he has been using ADY for most his life. I did try too address some of the basics and his question about water temperature needing to be warmer, which we know is not the case with IDY, room temperature is sufficient if not optimum.  Chiguy

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2006, 12:57:13 PM »
chiguy,

I used to be as dogmatic as Tom Lehmann about not combining yeast with the salt and water until things that DKM and pizzanapoletana said that convinced me that it was OK to do so provided it was done properly. What convinced me most was a pizzanapoletana post, from which I took this excerpt:

I keep hearing that salt and yeast cannot be combined in the water before adding the flour.

Before saying that, people should consider what actually the salt does to the yeast.

Basically, salt excerpt what is called osmotic pressure, which means that attract the water present in the environment around it. Sugar has a similar effect, even if at a lesser extent.

At the same time, the osmotic pressure, slows down the action of yeast in a dough.

We should also consider that different salt types, have different hydroscopic properties (the capacity of be dissolved in water), with the sea salt being the best.

Now, if you dissolve the salt in the water, and then into this "brine", dissolve the yeast (like Neapolitan have been doing for ages) the Osmotic pressure will be the same as if you add the two separate, as well as the salt will be already dissolved and have absorbed enough water, which will have reduced its osmotic pressure.

The only other thing to consider, would be the effect of salt on the formation of gluten, but this is another story.


Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2006, 01:32:33 PM »
 Peter,
 This is probably true to an extent but i still do not see evidence that the salt even when diluted will not impair yeast activity at all?? So according to Pizzanapoletana, the sequnece REDUCES this osmotic pressure but not completely eliminate it? I have seen this in alot of Neo doughs using compressed yeast and warmer finished dough temps and room temp rises. When Leahman explained sequencing he did mention to add the salt & sugar to the water and there was no need to stir it in. This could be the reason for his sequencing order, a lack of dilution of the salt. Are you using a ingrediant sequence different from pizzanapoletana & Leahman. If so, what is it?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2006, 02:15:42 PM »
chiguy,

For most doughs I dissolve the salt in the water and combine the yeast (usually IDY) with the flour. However, for Neapolitan style doughs using preferments, I add the preferment to the water after dissolving the salt in the water. The time of contact is minimal, so I haven't worried about it. The problem here is that the distinction is a fine one, and if you suggested that putting the yeast in with the salt was acceptable, then people would just do it all the time without taking the fine points into consideration. Like Tom Lehmann, I would be hesitant to tell anyone that it is OK to combine yeast with salt in the water. If he did this, he would be spending too much of his time trying to diagnose and fix problems that arise from poor dough management practices.

I recall reading somewhere that the salt/yeast thing is a myth. I will try to find where I read that and let you know if I find it (I think it was in a progressivebaker article that has since been removed). Also, modern yeasts are far better than old yeasts in their ability to tolerate contact with salt. So it is quite possible that we are clinging to old ideas that are not as important as they once were.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2006, 03:58:15 PM »
chiguy,

I found the excerpt from the progressivebaker.com article that I was looking for. It is as follows:

It's perfectly fine to add yeast and salt at the same time. Despite the common myth, salt will not kill the yeast. Perhaps it was a problem in the past, but today's yeast are hearty enough that they aren't harmed by contact with the salt. (However, don't scale and combine yeast and salt in advance, or allow them to come in contact with each other for an extended period, because that could cause harm).

Peter

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2006, 04:16:18 PM »
When I was in school we were tought to always put a little bit of salt in when we were proofing the yeast in the warm water with a bit of sugar.

One our teachers said that the salt acted as a limiter, so that the yeast would not proof too quickly by going crazy
when it was introduced to the sugar in the bowl ( with the water ) and expire
too quickly later on when it was actually mixed into the dough

How true this is, I don't know, but they were good teachers and seemed to know their stuff.

Would be interesting to actually find something to back up that statement. Hmm, anyway it's something that
has always stayed in my head.

Mark
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Offline chiguy

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Re: Need help understanding yeast types - Instant ? Active ? same thing ?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2006, 06:07:37 PM »
 Hi Peter,
 Thanks for looking into the salt/yeast theory, i am sure everyone is right to some degree.
 I personally have had good success with my ingrediant sequencing, so will continue using it. I know you are always pushing boundries and enjoy experimenting and testing theories. It is appreciated here at pizzamaking by more than just myself.  Chiguy