Author Topic: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata  (Read 2872 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2013, 06:48:20 AM »
I did a 50% semola, 50% bolter flour loaf, and I am just in love with the flavor profile. Forgot to take crumb shots before we devoured this one at Sunday dinner.

John

Edit: bolted flour.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 01:36:39 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2013, 11:32:54 AM »
That looks very nice John. Curious, did you score the dough at a right angle? I've never heard of bolter flour - what's the protein rate?
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2013, 01:38:44 PM »
Oops. Auto correct took hold. Bolted flour, which still has visible bran left.

Slash is at a steep angle.

John

Offline p.elkjaer

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2013, 03:51:35 AM »
Absolutely amazing looking.
Never baked with 100% semolina, but Will for sure try now.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2013, 11:22:21 AM »
Can you fellas tell me @ what temp and for how long you baked these loaves?

Thanks!

John K
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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2013, 03:24:33 PM »
I baked my boule inside a preheated dutch oven at 572 degrees farenheit - covered for 15 minutes at this temp, then uncovered for another 15 at 500 degrees.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2013, 04:05:21 PM »
I post this to get help! So help, please!!!!

The semolina I bought came re-packaged, so that may be the main issue. (?)

Followed directions otherwise.

The problems:

Dough seemed very slack at all points.

Not much of a rise. Minimal oven spring.

Crumb too tight.

Blah blah blah

Any suggestions to make it look like Johnny's, John's and others are greatly appreciated.

John K

I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2013, 04:25:49 PM »
John,

A couple questions for you - When you placed the dough in the fridge, was the dough in such a large container that the dough mass spread out to fill the entire container?

Did you perform several stretch and folds to develop the gluten (bonci style)?

Was this semolina flour that used, or courser grained semolina?

It also seems that the dough could have used some support while proofing (linen lined bowl or basket).

Depending on your current temperature/fridge temp - you may need to increase the amount of yeast a bit.

If you could tell us how you prepared the dough I think we can get you to where you want to be.

BTW - I just caught a huge discrepancy of mine re: the oven temp I used for this bread. I must have done a bad celsius -farenheit conversion before, but I'm 100% positive that my 2nd boule was baked in a preheated dutch oven (300 degrees celsius - 572 fareneheit).  After uncovering, I lowered temp to 260 degrees celsius (500 degrees farenheit). My apologies for this confusion.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2013, 01:34:47 AM »
John,

A couple questions for you - When you placed the dough in the fridge, was the dough in such a large container that the dough mass spread out to fill the entire container?

Did you perform several stretch and folds to develop the gluten (bonci style)?

Was this semolina flour that used, or courser grained semolina?

It also seems that the dough could have used some support while proofing (linen lined bowl or basket).

Depending on your current temperature/fridge temp - you may need to increase the amount of yeast a bit.

If you could tell us how you prepared the dough I think we can get you to where you want to be.

BTW - I just caught a huge discrepancy of mine re: the oven temp I used for this bread. I must have done a bad celsius -farenheit conversion before, but I'm 100% positive that my 2nd boule was baked in a preheated dutch oven (300 degrees celsius - 572 fareneheit).  After uncovering, I lowered temp to 260 degrees celsius (500 degrees farenheit). My apologies for this confusion.

Johnny,

Thank you for replying. I think the issue is mainly the semolina I am using.

I can tell you that I tried and tried to get a better loaf shape by using a spatula and slap/stretch technique to no avail.

So I may add some,00 next time ......

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2013, 05:55:26 AM »
John - did your loaf double in size during proofing?

John

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2013, 09:58:40 AM »
John - did your loaf double in size during proofing?

John

John,

It did just about that. I'd say more like a 75% increase in size. And while there were some fairly large bubbles in the dough just before I did the final shaping, those obviously did not come back after the final shaping and a 1 hour room temp rise just before the oven.

The ability of the dough to maintain a "loaf" shape was hindered, in my opinion, by wetness/slackness, or whatever I should be calling it.

As an observation: while mixing, this dough had much more of the consistency of cornbread as opposed to the pizza dough I usually make. It seemed as though it only had minimal gluten development, even with a 30 minute rest in the bowl and then about 20 minutes (total) of scraping, slapping, stretching, and folding by hand. :'(

Are you thinking maybe a yeast issue?

Thanks,

John K
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro rimacinata
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2013, 10:05:36 AM »
This evening I made another boule, but using a different approach. I baked this semolina flour bread in a preheated dutch oven, tartine bread style. One score across the top after plopping it into the dutch oven, covered, and left to bake at 525 degrees for 20 minutes. Uncovered, heat decreased to 475 and left to brown for 10 more minutes.  It's still cooling as I type ;) . Some pics:

Johnny,

The next time you make this bread would you mind showing some pics of the dough at different stages of mixing, and how it looks just before baking, as well as the dutch oven you are using?

Thank you sir!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro rimacinata
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2013, 10:40:09 AM »
Johnny,

The next time you make this bread would you mind showing some pics of the dough at different stages of mixing, and how it looks just before baking, as well as the dutch oven you are using?

Thank you sir!

John K

Yes, I'll do that John. Good thing I've still got plenty of semolina flour - I'll take plenty of pics of the entire process the next time around- which I suspect should be next week.
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Offline dhorst

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2013, 11:19:59 AM »
I'm wondering if it could be an over proofing for the final rise.  I know I'm a lurker here, but I do bake a boat load of bread and for the final rise I don't let it double in size, I maybe let it get to 2/3 after taking it out of the fridge and look for high heat oven spring for the final result. I think that if you let it double in size it is sometimes too slack. 
I do use the stretch and fold method of working the dough in the initial stages and then let the dough sit in the fridge at least overnight before shaping it into whatever fits my mood.  I also hit it with high heat, usually 450-475 on the convection setting of my oven for the first 10-12 minutes with a pan of water in the bottom of the oven, and then back off the heat to 375 to 400.  The temperature also has to do with the shape of bread I'm working with.  Boules get backed off to a lower temp.  Baguettes/sticks keep a higher temp with less time.
I've been playing around with different flours to use with semolina.  I'll try to pull up some photos and formulas of some of my past breads and see if I can be of any help.  It may also depend on the semolina and how coarse it is.  I have a few different ones on hand that I've been playing around with from an Amish market.  Yeah, yeah, Amish meets Italian.  Fusion bread?   ;)

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2013, 12:58:04 PM »
I post this to get help! So help, please!!!!

The semolina I bought came re-packaged, so that may be the main issue. (?)

Followed directions otherwise.

The problems:

Dough seemed very slack at all points.

Not much of a rise. Minimal oven spring.

Crumb too tight.

Blah blah blah

Any suggestions to make it look like Johnny's, John's and others are greatly appreciated.

John K

John, I believe the OP used fine semolina flour.  If you used the "semolina" that is repackaged, most likely it is the coarse ground (almost the same texture of a cornmeal).  The flour that you should be looking for is the Extra Fancy Semolina/Durum wheat. 

Also, you don't have to use as much water if you are not getting enough gluten development during the mixing process.  It is more important to get the gluten development in the dough to withstand the long rise.  It sounds like you did not achieve that which is why all the large bubbles you got before final shaping disappeared because the dough is too weak by the time you baked it.   

You will know if you achieved enough gluten if the dough is not sticking to the countertop or bowl during the stretch and fold even at the maximum hydration that the flour can handle.  An easy solution to your problem is to lower the hydration (5% or so) and get the gluten developed properly, then extend the fermentation.  I guarantee you, the results will be a more open and light crumb structure even at a lower hydration.

Marlon


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2013, 08:43:59 PM »
Marlon, Diana, Johnny, and John,

Thank you so much for the ideas, suggestions, and encouragement!  I have two or three things I will do differently next time! 

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline norma427

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2013, 07:51:46 AM »
I found this bag of Divella Durum Wheat Semolina while I was cleaning at market.  I wonder if this bag of flour would be too old, or not the right kind of Semolina to use to make dough.  The flour is really outdated. 

Norma


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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2013, 10:23:17 AM »
Give it a 'sniff test'! If it's rancid you'll know right away, I can smell and taste rancid WAYYY before others that think it's fine, yuck! If it doesn't have that rancid smell or taste (finger dip test) I'd use it.

jon
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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2013, 10:24:51 AM »
Norma,

It looks like you have hard wheat semolina, and not fine remilled semolina flour.

You'll get pretty close, the flavor should be very good, but I don't think you'll be able to achieve the same open texture as with the finer semolina flour. Those Divella 500gm bags are sealed very good, if you open it and things smell and look normal I say give it a shot! 80-85% hydration will work well. You may want to taste a bit as well, before committing it to use.  ;)

Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2013, 10:26:04 AM »
Give it a 'sniff test'! If it's rancid you'll know right away, I can smell and taste rancid WAYYY before others that think it's fine, yuck! If it doesn't have that rancid smell or taste (finger dip test) I'd use it.

jon

Jon beat me to it -  ^^^ 100%
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2013, 11:17:12 AM »
Jon and Johnny the Gent,

Thanks for the idea to do a sniff test and a taste test.  ;) I never thought of doing that before.  Johnny, thanks for also telling me you think my bag of Semola di Grano Duro is the hard wheat semolina and not the fine remilled semolina flour.  I think Matthew also told me that before when I tried that flour.

I will give it a shot if it is okay. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2013, 01:20:55 PM »
I smelled and tasted the Divella Semola di Grano Duro flour and it smelled and tasted okay.  I made a Detroit style dough with the Semola di Grando Duro flour and the Occident flour 60/40 with the formulation at the beginning of this thread, except I used IDY.  The dough came together well with a rest period and another mix in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  I did use Grapeseed Oil, but didn't use any salt.

Norma

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2013, 03:43:59 PM »
Good to hear that the semolina is still serviceable  ;)

Curious, did you perform any stretch and folds or did you just mix in the KA mixer? Let us know how it comes out!
Il miglior fabbro

Offline norma427

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2013, 07:32:25 PM »
Good to hear that the semolina is still serviceable  ;)

Curious, did you perform any stretch and folds or did you just mix in the KA mixer? Let us know how it comes out!

Johnny the Gent,

I will wait and see how the pizza bakes first to see if the semolina was okay. 

I didn't have to do any stretch and folds, but did let the water and flours sit for a little before the mix was started.  The dough was a little sticky, but not more than when I use 75% hydration on the Detroit style doughs.  I don't know if from the semolina being older if that helped somewhat with not needing stretch and folds or not.

If I find time tonight or tomorrow morning I will mix another dough with salt.  I am going to bake at market in the small steel pan.

Norma

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Re: Pane di semola di grano duro remacinata
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2013, 07:28:46 AM »
I did mix the same dough, using the same amounts of flours as before with Celtic light-gray sea salt last evening.  The Celtic sea salt was first dissolved in the formula water because it is coarse.  The first photo shows the dough after the first mix with the flat beater.  The second photo shows how the dough becomes stronger after the 20 minute rest period before the second mix.  The third photo is of the dough ball and the fourth photo is both dough balls this morning.  The dough ball that was mixed last evening is now smooth on the top of the dough ball.

Norma


 

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