Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 98160 times)

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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2013, 01:34:43 PM »
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2013, 01:42:11 PM »
Thanks for your kind words, Norma!

Here are a couple of bad pics from Salvatore's.

Andy,

Thanks for the photos of Salvatore's pizza!  ;)

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2013, 01:43:29 PM »
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D

Dave,

I guess we will learn what kind of tomato pies members like best.  I already know what type of tomato pie you like best.   :-D

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2013, 01:57:57 PM »
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2013, 02:22:24 PM »
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:

Dave,

These are the links again from my first post in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.0.html to where Bob1 brought Steve and myself a tomato pie from Joesph Corropolese Bakery and Deli.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708 and when Steve and I went to Marchiano's Bakery for a tomato pie in Roxborough-Manayunk.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948   They look like the kind of tomato pie you like.  :-D The kind of tomato pie you like is made also in many places near Philly.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 06:56:21 PM »
I decided to make two batches of dough somewhat in the lines that Joe Kelly told me to try at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg256601.html#msg256601  for a tomato pie dough with a higher gluten flour, but I really don't like lower hydration doughs with a water amount of 55%.  I also didn't like the percentage of salt Joe told me to try.  The formulation I used in in the one photo and the only thing I did differently for the two batches was to use vegetable oil in one batch and olive oil in the other batch.  I have always wanted to compare two doughs side by side to see if olive oil makes any differences in the final bake, even though I read here on the forum that it really should not matter and I also have tried both oils in doughs. 

I never mixed in bigger mixers like a 40 qt. or an 80 qt. mixer and really don't know how my 20 qt. Hobart mixer compares to the bigger mixers in mixing ingredients.  I have watched my Kitchen Aid mixer though in how it mixes dough.  I used the delayed oil method again.  I really watched these two mixes and how long it takes for the dough to mix first before the oil is added.  I also timed how long it took for all the oil to become incorporated into the dough.  I didn't take any photos of the first mix, but did take photos of those dough balls.  The photos are the flour I used this time, which was Kyrol, the formulation used for both doughs, what the ingredients look like before being mixed (without a photo of the water).  How the sugar, IDY and kosher salt was put on top of the flour after the water was added first to the mixer bowl.  The next photo was after those ingredients were mixed for 3 minutes (that is how long it took all the flour to be incorporated), then how the dough looks when it is sloshing around in the oil after it was drizzled in on the side of the mixer bowl.  Both doughs took another 5 minutes of mixing to be able to incorporate all of the oil.  The dough can be seen on the bench and how rough it looks.  The stretchy dough on top of the dough batch was the small piece of leftover dough from the previous batch.  I showed this before in another thread, but dough does get very stretchy in a short amount of time if it is left alone.  The final dough temperature was next and then the dough balls from the second batch.  The last photo is of the dough balls in the plastic bags. 

I sure don't know how I could do these mixes any faster because the oil needs to be incorporated into the dough.  To me, this seems like a fairly long mix when the two mix times are added together, but then a decent amount of oil was added.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 06:59:20 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 07:00:30 PM »
Norma

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 01:42:59 AM »
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

 


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 01:22:35 PM »
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

Tim,

I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want.  If those things fail, I guess that will be the end of this thread.  Pizza dough is complicated for me and when I think I have one thing figured out another thing crops up that I don't understand. 

To answer you questions I use whatever temperature of water I think I need for the humidity and temperature at market, because the temperatures and humidity fluctuate so much.  I also do the same thing at home when making dough, but at home the temperatures don't fluctuate as much.  I  know the way I do that isn't the best and doesn't accurately work out all the time, but most of the time I am near my desired final dough temperature.  That is something that is just learned from making so many doughs in many ambient temperatures.  To give you a few examples if the humidity is very dry my scaled doughs before balling can dry out on the top before I get them all balled and that isn't really a long time that it takes me to do that.  Fans also don't help and can make the dough dry before balling.  If the ambient temperatures are really warm (around in the 90's) then the dough can also start to ferment until I have one batch of dough cut, scaled, balled and oiled.  It is a tricky process to get everything right and I still struggle as what to do sometimes.  I don't let the dough sit at all before balling.  I also find it interesting how the dough gets very stretchy when just sitting from one batch to the next too.

Thanks for telling about your experiment using two oils to oil your dough balls.   I wonder why the dough ball coated with vegetable oil seemed a little lighter.

Norma

Offline petef

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 01:20:02 AM »
I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want. 

Norma, is the target dough you are trying to replicate same as Joeys Pizza?

I still have some frozen slices of Joey's pizza and I've been eating it for the past week from frozen leftovers. It's like no other pizza crust I've ever had. It's light, very tender, and is quite resistant to burning when reheating over and open flame. First I microwave it to warm it back up. Then I place it on a hand held wire grill and hold it a few inches over the open flame of my stovetop which makes the bottom crisp as fresh baked. Any ideas on what gives the dough those properties? Do you think the dough is heavily bromated?

---pete---

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 01:39:11 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especailly when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 08:51:44 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especially when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim

Tim,

There are methods posted here on the forum of how to get a desired final dough temperature that would give more accurate results by Peter, Tom Lehmann and other members, but with me having a different temperatures and humidity at market every week it would be too much trouble for me to use that method all the time, or either I am too lazy to use those methods.  That is why I don't use the methods posted here on the forum.  I don't think most pizza operators (unless they are outside) have to deal with so many different temperature and humidities.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 08:57:15 AM »
I have been thinking over what I might be doing wrong and what my limitations are even if I have a Baker's Pride oven and a 20 qt. Hobart mixer to use.  Scott r's post at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846 came to mind in what he said about a very long mixed dough and definitely made with a high gluten flour.  The rest of what he commented on that post also made more sense to me now than when he posted those comments.  I didn't think my smaller Hobart mixer had that many limitations, but after thinking it over I don't really think my attempts can be anything in the crust like a Joey's pizza.  I sure don't have a bigger Hobart mixer to try out that is fully loaded.  My mixer isn't really all of the problem though and since Mack's and Joey's uses Rotoflex ovens, my Baker's Pride is really no match for a pizza that I would like to create and I really don't think I will be able to do that in the end, or after trying many times.

I already see what my limitations are in my mixer and oven.  Although Mack's and Marcua's (now Joey's) both used deck ovens at one time, I can also see the limitations in the countertop oven I use for these attempts.  If I recall right Mack's deck ovens did have a higher head space than mine does.  I recall when I watched at Pizza Brain how those much bigger ovens (with a lot higher head space than mine) baked those pizzas so good even when they were baked a fairly long while with many pizzas on the same deck at the same time.  I guess I really don't understand enough about ovens and mixers even though I try to understand.  To add to what I just posted above, I am not the best person to try new dough formulations to see what happens.  I think trying new formulations just adds to the confusion of what to try, or what not to try when the attempts don’t go well.   

My two batches of dough balls almost overfermented until Tuesday morning when I got to market.  I still have no idea why that happened when I thought the dough was scaled, balled and oiled in a reasonable time.  I mentioned before that I am having problems with the new bag of IDY and my dough balls wanting to overferment until the next day and mentioned I never saw this happen when a new bag of yeast was opened.  I also thought my final dough temperatures were okay.  As can be seen in the one photo my pizza prep fridge is rather cold.  All of the dough balls were fairly hard to open too.  I sure don't know why that happened either, when I used the delayed method of mixing the oil in.  The dough balls almost seemed like they were reballed in opening them, but they sure weren’t reballed.  As the day went on the dough balls sure weren't easier to open either.  The photos of the attempted Tomato Pie dough balls and the Detroit style dough balls were taken fairly early in the morning.  I don't think I could have mixed this dough any faster in my mixer, because it took the first 3 minutes for all of the flour to be incorporated into the flour.  It makes me wonder more how pizzerias can mix so long and have good doughs that work well to make their pizzas, even if my mixing order or times might not have been right. 

These are a few photos of the dough balls and final pizzas.  Although the pizzas were good in my opinion, the rim crust and bottom crust weren't anything like Joey's.  I guess I am just getting frustrated in trying to make a good Tomato Pie even though I did also try on the Mack's thread.  I am not sure of what to try next, but I don’t want anymore dough balls that are hard to open if I can help it.  When Steve and I are busy, it just adds more work in getting pizzas made.  I think I am moving back instead of moving forward in my attempts for a Tomato Pie.  My customers liked the pizzas made with these dough balls, but I am not happy with them.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 09:01:36 AM »
Edit:  I forgot to mention the bake times on the pizzas on Tuesday were around 6 minutes, or a little longer.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:20:00 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2013, 09:53:57 AM »
Since I have been having problems with my dough balls overfermenting, or almost overfermenting and the dough balls being hard to open I am trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong.  I thought my final dough temperatures were okay last Monday and the dough felt okay and balled okay.  I also have been wondering how much differently a 20 qt. Hobart mixer mixes than a larger Hobart mixer and how larger Hobart mixers seem to mix better for longer periods of time and their doughs then are okay after thinking over scott r's post that I referenced before.

I decided to ask Joe Kelley when I was emailing him this week about the GM Neapolitan flour what my problems might be and if a bigger Hobart mixers really mixes that much differently than my smaller Hobart mixer.  Joe first told me a larger and fully loaded mixer allows for more consistency in doughs and said I could do a longer mix that helps all the ingredients fully incorporate.  However, I don’t think that is the issue that is causing the difficult to work with dough balls you are experiencing. 

Joe asked me this:  Also, to recap your process, you waited until the dough had been mixing for roughly 1-2 minutes before adding the oil and then how long did you mix after pouring the oil?  Did the consistency of the dough look different than normal when you pulled from the bowl?  I then told Joe how I mixed my dough batches and for how long and the dough looked normal to me when I pulled it from the mixer bowl.  This is what Joe then told me:  That is odd how the Kyrol came out, from what you are saying below I think you are mixing the dough exactly how you should be and an ending dough temperature of 79.6 degrees is ideal.  The only thing I can think of is that you potentially received product that may have been off spec or was not stored correctly at one point in time, it happens occasionally in the flour world.  Other than that I’m not sure.  I did tell Joe I had the Kyrol flour for awhile and thought I would just try it.  Joe said my dough formulation looked okay.

Joe then said this: 
It’s difficult to replicate mixing 100 lbs of flour at one time in a 20 quart mixer, however, I would just focus on being consistent, keep on measuring dough temperatures, use the same ingredients and watch mixing times so that you do not over or under develop dough.  I am biased but I think some of the variables you are having with your dough could be due to the flour that you are using. 

I think I found out there is no way my 20 qt. Hobart mixer can mix like a bigger Hobart mixer.  I had thought it could mix dough well, but it sure can't mix like a larger Hobart mixer.  I decided to change to a different flour for this coming week and I am also going to try to lower the amount of IDY. 

Can anyone suggest what amount of IDY I should try for a one day cold ferment if I have a decent final dough temperature?  I am going to mix the same with the new flour and use the same formulation I used last week. 

Norma

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2013, 01:51:27 AM »
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2013, 07:33:59 AM »
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?

Hi Tim,

Thanks for telling me that you are used to adding less yeast since you live at a higher altitude in Colorado.  I didn't know that most guides say to use one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.   

I know I should not be changing more than one variable at a time, because sometimes the results can become confusing.  I have been having problems with my dough balls wanting to overferment, or almost overfermenting since I opened up that new package of IDY.  I can't figure that out, but Steve and I were talking about that the past couple of weeks.  He is also having the same problems with his NY style dough balls he makes for another farmers market than I go to and his IDY is old.  I am beginning to think it is the change in weather that is making the differences in how the dough balls ferment, but don't really know.  Steve cut his IDY way back for his NY style doughs.  Last summer I did cut back the amount of IDY I used, and know that is not recommended, but it worked okay.  I was just trying to figure out how much I could cut the amount of IDY back and still have dough balls that ferment okay until the next day.  I don't recall how much I cut the IDY back last summer. 

I did like the Occident flour, but since I tasted the pizzas at Joey's that is one reason I am going to change the flour to see what happens.  I think Joey's uses All Trumps and that is the flour I am going to try on Monday.  I did try All Trumps awhile ago, but don't recall how it performed and know I probably used another formulation.  I don't think the method I am using for mixing will make the crust tough, but I will have to wait and see what happens.  I know I don't have Joey's mixer or Rotoflex oven either, so my results won't be the same.  Time will tell if I decide to go back to the Occident flour.

Norma   

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2013, 07:46:59 PM »
This is the formulation I am trying out for tomorrow with the All Trumps flour.  The two batches of dough mixed in less time than last week when using the delayed addition of the oil.  This time the flour and other ingredients were mixed with the water in 2 minutes.  It can be seen until I cut, scaled and balled all of the 15 dough balls from the first batch of dough how the leftover piece of dough already wanted to stretch better.  I used olive oil in one batch and vegetable oil in the other test batch.  Both batches of doughs had about the same final dough temperatures. 

It also can be seen that although the market temperature wasn't bad today, the humidity was fairly high and it was raining heavily.  It seems like there is one problem after another at market.  My vent was leaking again today.  I guess I will have to get that looked at again.  I think this will be about the 4th time that vent has given me problems.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 07:49:21 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2013, 09:48:59 AM »
The test dough balls didn't overferment, or almost overferment until Tuesday morning when using less yeast in the formulation, but I do think they did ferment too much for the amount of yeast used and the final dough temperatures that I had for these two batches of dough.  I still can't figure that out why my dough balls want to ferment so much.  The first photo is some of the dough balls that were in my pizza prep fridge first thing Tuesday morning and the next photo is of one dough ball before it was warmed-up also taken first thing in the morning. 

The dough balls did open okay, and they weren't as hard to open as last week, but I still am trying to have dough balls that are easier to open. 

The rim crusts and bottom crusts seemed to brown okay when using the All Trumps flour. 

I had quite a few customers comment that the boardwalk style of pizzas I am making do taste like Grotto's pizzas.  There are more customers purchasing slices and whole pizzas since I am trying to make the boardwalk style of pizzas rather than making a regular NY style of pizza.  That is a good thing for me, but I still don't have this dough down right.  I also had a few customers tell me they are posting on their facebook page to come and try my boardwalk style pizzas.  I told those customers that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market, so if they wanted to share my facebook page for market they could.  I have to make a sign this week that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market. 

This is another thing that puzzles me in how the cheese melted this week with using the new flour.  For some reason the cheese melted better and looked better on the pizzas than before.  I sure don't know what causes that either when I am using the same amount of cheese, applying the cheese the same way and also using the same tomato sauce.

I don't know what to try next in having dough balls that are easier to open and don't know what amount of yeast to try next either.   :-\

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 11:21:37 AM »
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 12:17:11 PM »
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.

Diana,

Thanks for your kind comments.   :)  I think many people in our area are familiar with the Grotto's, Mack's and Manco & Manco pizzas since we don't live that far from the shore.  It takes awhile for the word to get out what kinds of pizzas I am offering at market since I am only open one day a week, but it seems like slowly more people are getting to know about what I offer.  Some new customers ask if I have a regular pizza business somewhere that they could come to, but that is out of the question for me.  I do have customers that come from an hour away for my pizzas though.  I have been working on this style of pizzas for about 3 years and I still don't have it right.  The cheese part and the sauce are okay, but the crust and dough still gives me problems. 

Norma