Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 65819 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #560 on: September 08, 2013, 01:58:34 PM »
I wonder how they weight their ingredients for their doughs.
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.



Peter


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #561 on: September 08, 2013, 02:16:02 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, out of curiosity, I reworked the no-sugar dough formulation that I gave you with a starting flour amount of 50 pounds, or 800 ounces. That amount of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls. We don't know the mix of the two dough ball weights but a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs. For a 75/25 mix of large/small pizzas, with a total of 200 pizzas, three 50-lb bags might be needed.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:31:47 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #562 on: September 08, 2013, 02:21:22 PM »
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.



Peter

Peter,

I had thought about that Gary Amico and possibly his predecessors might have just used volume measurements.  I agree about the nice round numbers measuring in volume measurements.   I know my one pizza guy near me does that.  That was the first recipe I tried for pizza and you know how I messed everything up using those volume measurements.   :-D

I recall that Vito & Nick's video and how you, I and other members pondered over what really were the weights used.  At least it was fun.   

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #563 on: September 08, 2013, 08:55:05 PM »
Peter,

I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #564 on: September 08, 2013, 09:03:08 PM »
I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #565 on: September 08, 2013, 09:32:36 PM »
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter

Peter,

I must have missed that article in my searches.  I can't believe how many articles and other places do post about De Lorenzo/Robbinville/Hudson.  That was an eye opening thing for me.  I continue to find articles or places I haven't seen before.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #566 on: September 09, 2013, 11:51:25 AM »
Peter,

I mixed your De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, without sugar because I was curious to see if really any sugar in needed to get bottom crust browning.  The dough was finished mixing at 10:45 AM. 

I added all the other ingredients to the flour, except added the oil to the water.  The first mix was with the flat beater only again and was mixed on speeds two and three for 4 minutes.  The dough looked fine at that point (first photo).  I let the dough rest for 10 minutes and mixed on speed 4 for six more minutes.  My Kitchen Aid Professional HD did not have any trouble mixing the De Lorenzo Clone Formulation #2 with the flat beater only in both mixes.  I used my bigger scale again to weigh the flour and water and used my smaller scale to weigh the other ingredients.

The dough felt nice after both mixes and was 10.1 ounce so I took a little piece off and then balled and floured.  I used semolina on the bottom of the plastic container, just to see what semolina does on the bottom.  The dough balled easily.  The final dough temperature was 80.5 degrees F.

I took a short video of the second mix near the end of the mix to show how easily my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixes a dough like this that is somewhat lower in hydration.  I think my Kitchen Aid Professional HD could mix a dough that is lower in hydration without having to resort to other methods of mixing like finishing the mix by hand.  If I recall right, you said a dough like this might be harder to mix in your Kitchen Aid mixer.

Video




Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #567 on: September 09, 2013, 12:52:33 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188. The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #568 on: September 09, 2013, 06:06:02 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188. The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter

Peter,

Did you hear any sounds in the video I posted?  I could heard every sound when I listened to the video on my Media player, but I have no idea why I can't hear everything that went on when I uploaded it to YouTube.  My great-granddaugther was singing in the backround of that video, she was also watching TV which also was somewhat loud and the mixer did make noises.  When I tried to listen to that video on YouTube and here on the forum I heard nothing. 

I understand why you don't want to change mixers now since your mixer has served you well for all your experiments and cloning a reverse engineering pizzas. 

I could try the experiment making the dough like you gave Bob.  I think I would add more salt though if I am going to bake it into a pizza.  If I find time I will mix it this evening and will take another video.  What amount of IDY would you advise me to use if the dough would be used to make a pizza later tomorrow afternoon?

On the matter of cornmeal and semolina I only had that one kind of semolina at market (the one my daughter brought home from NYC awhile ago) and I brought it home from market for the dough ball I made today.  My semolina is lighter in color and really not that yellow.  I believe De Lorenzo/Sloan is using cornmeal, but I don't know what De Lorenzo Robbinsville is using. 

I took two videos at market today of my 20 qt. Hobart mixer in the 2 sequences that I mix the boardwalk style dough.  That thing is a work horse compared to my mixer at home.  I will post those videos later when they are finished uploading.  One video takes about an hour to upload on YouTube if it is longer than the one I posted earlier today.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #569 on: September 09, 2013, 06:59:17 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #570 on: September 09, 2013, 07:36:23 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you could hear my mixer in the video wailing away as it mixed the dough.  The mixer even drowned out my great-granddaugther singing, which is good because she has a bad head cold.  That is strange I can't hear the video here on the forum or on YouTube.  The last video from De Lorenzo/Robbinsville I could hear here on the forum. 

Thanks for telling me you would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time.

I have wondered too whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each others dough recipes.  I also think the loose lips due too much consumption of alcohol or for other reason they might know.  Who even knows, maybe Rick does use about the same formulation, but his dough weights more for the same size pizza.  Who even knows if Gary and Sam would tell anyone the truth about how much oil is in their dough.  If I had a famous dough recipe that made people come and get my pizzas the way De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson have them flocking I would not give it out to just anyone.  I really don't think Rick uses as much salt though.  I had planned to try 10 ounces of Rick's dough leftover from the large dough ball in my BS, but I became too busy trying to get things ready for an event at Root's on Saturday.  I figured if I stopped my work to make a pizza I would not want to start working again. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #571 on: September 09, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »


In case anyone doesn't know it, I do use the delayed method adding the oil after the first mix and a rest period before the oil is added.

This is the first video of my 20 qt. Hobart mixing the dough for the boardwalk style of pizzas.  This is the total time it took for the first mix. 



A rest period is done for 10 minutes, then the mixer it started again and mixed until the drizzled olive oil is incorporated. 

This is what the photos show.

1. Ingredients used for one batch of dough at market.
2. Dough after first mix, it looks shaggy, but there are no ingredients on the bottom of the mixer bowl.
3. All Trumps I use for the boardwalk style of pizza.
4. Shaggy dough resting.
5. Dough on bench after being mixed the second time.  It still looks somewhat shaggy.
6. How the dough stretches and is relaxing some after some dough is scaled.
7. How dough stretches after all the dough is scaled for one batch of dough.
8. Some balled dough balls.
9. Dough balls are starting to relax more after they are oiled and put into plastic bags.

I will post the second video of the delayed addition of the oil when it is finished uploading.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #572 on: September 09, 2013, 07:46:26 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #573 on: September 09, 2013, 07:47:19 PM »
One photo I could not add in my last post.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #574 on: September 09, 2013, 09:12:19 PM »
This is the second part of the mix in the Hobart mixer with the drizzle of the olive oil down the side of the mixer bowl.  This was the total time mixed the second time too, expect I turned on the mixer first before I started taking the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbjgFHOAJKo&feature=youtu.be 

Please excuse the tiles that are off of my floor at market, but I am having problems with my deli case and water that defrosts from it accumulating and not drying out.  Each time I drain the water out it makes the floor wet, so the tiles came up and I am not going to put the tiles down again until I get that problem fixed.  I got some repair inserts for the drain tube at our local True Value hardware store, but each time I got them they weren't the right size.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:26:08 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #575 on: September 09, 2013, 09:18:49 PM »
Well, I mixed the lower hydration dough and my Kitchen Aid Professional HD did groan more  :-D, but it did mix the dough okay.  The mixer bowl was rocking, but at least it did not come off the place where the mixer bowl is held and the Kitchen Aid didn't move on the kitchen counter.  I am not sure if the videos of parts of both of the mixes will turn out because it is darker in my kitchen since it is nighttime, but I am trying to upload them.  This is what the finished dough ball looks like.  When I used the expanded dough calculation tool I did use 10 ounces as the dough weight and a 1.5 bowl residue compensation, because I wanted to see how 10 ounces of dough would compare to the pizza I made before using a higher weight when I used the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball. 

I mixed exactly the same as my last dough this morning, but I had a higher final dough temperature.  I guess that was from the harder time my mixer had with mixing the dough.  I did use 1.5 % salt, because I didn't want a tasteless crust.  I did put the same semolina in the bottom of the plastic container and floured the dough ball the same as I did with the dough ball I made this morning.  The dough did ball okay, but it feels drier.

Norma   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:20:50 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #576 on: September 09, 2013, 10:00:11 PM »
Norma,

Nice job.

For your information, I calculated the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour) you used to make the two dough balls. I also calculated the "effective" hydration value (the sum of the hydration and oil percents) for the two dough balls.

Here are the numbers:

Robbinsville clone dough ball: 43.2% water content; effective hydration of 58%

Sloan clone dough ball: 38.8% water content; effective hydration of 53%

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #577 on: September 09, 2013, 10:21:40 PM »
Norma,

Nice job.

For your information, I calculated the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour) you used to make the two dough balls. I also calculated the "effective" hydration value (the sum of the hydration and oil percents) for the two dough balls.

Here are the numbers:

Robbinsville clone dough ball: 43.2% water content; effective hydration of 58%

Sloan clone dough ball: 38.8% water content; effective hydration of 53%

Peter

Peter,

It sure wasn't me that mixed the lower hydration dough as good as it did.  It was my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Thank you for calculating the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour and calculating the “effective hydration”. 

The Sloan clone dough ball is sure lower in hydration than the Robbinsville clone dough ball.  It is interesting to see those numbers so I can understand better.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #578 on: September 09, 2013, 10:24:24 PM »
This video is darker, but it gives an idea of how hard of a time my mixer had in the first part of the mix with the lower hydration dough in the Kitchen Aid Professional HD.  YouTube did enhance the video so it would be a little lighter after I pushed the button to say enhance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkq1i1XdM6Q&feature=youtu.be

I will see if the second video uploads okay, but so far it is darker.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22218
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #579 on: September 10, 2013, 06:30:42 AM »
This was part of the second mix in the Kitchen Aid Professional HD of the Sloan clone dough, after the rest period.  The video took a long time to upload and was put in a queue.  I guess that because the video was so dark and YouTube couldn't figure out what to do with it.  I didn't have an opportunity to enhance the lightness of this video, but the clanking can be heard of mixing the lower hydration of the Sloan clone dough.  This was the second time I tried to upload the same video, but it turned out the same.



In my opinion the videos of my Kitchen Aid mixing two doughs and the two videos at market using the Hobart do show that many mixing techniques can be used to get a pizza dough that is useable and not all mixers even of the same type like a Kitchen Aid, or a Hobart mix the same.  If I were to take videos of mixing a much higher hydration dough like the Detroit style at home in my Kitchen Aid, or at market in the Hobart it would be able to be seen most people have to learn how to mix their doughs with whatever equipment they have available.  That includes hand mixing.  Just like formulations for pizza doughs in my opinion mixing can matter in all the variables it takes to make a good pizza.  At market I mixed a shorter time than I normally do the second time so the video wouldn't take too long to upload.  My dough balls usually look smoother than they did, but I think the dough balls will still produce about the same kinds of pizzas today.

I only used speed one on the Hobart at market to mix the boardwalk style of dough the two times.  I have no idea what speed, or speeds and how long De Lorenzo/Robbinville uses on their mixer if they still use a Hobart.  My attempts at mixing two De Lorenzo's doughs might not be anything like they mix their dough and even if I was anywhere close in my mixing efforts my doughs might not act the same.       

Norma
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 06:32:35 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!