Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 97684 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #550 on: September 07, 2013, 04:04:56 PM »
Stuart,

Both of the terms "extensibility" and "elasticity" are defined in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#E .

As you might imagine, there are varying degrees of extensibility and elasticity. For skins that are to be produced in volume, as at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, you ideally want a balance between extensibility and elasticity. You don't want the dough to be so extensible that it runs away from you when forming into skins, but you don't want the dough to be so elastic that skins made from the dough have excessive springback and are difficult to form to the desired size or it takes too long to do so.

Comment has been made in the Trenton thread and in this one that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson skins were not tossed or twirled for fear that the workers would put their hands through the skins or otherwise form holes or tears. That can happen when you are working with very thin skins, even good ones, and the risk of these problems increases with the sizes of the skins. But there are skins that have such good balance between extensibility and elasticity that the skins can handle extreme manhandling without mishap. But in an operation as at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what is the point of doing that? They are there to make pizzas, not entertain customers. Unfortunately, that approach makes it difficult to tell from still photos, and even from videos, what hydration value is used. If you go too high with the hydration, and all else being equal, you can end up with a skin that is too extensible; if the hydration value is too low, the skin can be too elastic. Elastic skins can also develop rips and tears.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 04:16:54 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #551 on: September 07, 2013, 05:04:30 PM »
Thanks, Peter. Balance, like with everything in life, seems to be the key for this thread, too.

And, I've experienced problems with both..in my quest for the perfect dough, though rarely recently with elasticity. Rather, too extensible...at times. Need more elasticity, I think.
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #552 on: September 07, 2013, 06:33:18 PM »
Norma,

I went back to the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 and viewed it several more times in order to get a better feel for the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench and the final skin is formed. In the video, two dough balls are formed, which I will refer to as DB1 and DB2. Here are the timelines for the two dough balls.

DB1
0:08-0:15: floured partially flattened DB1 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 7 seconds)
0:16: the partially opened DB1 skin is flipped
0:17-0:30: the DB1 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 13 seconds)
0:31: bench flour
0:32-0:36: the DB1 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 4 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 26 seconds

DB2
0:48-0:58: floured partially flattened DB2 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
0:59: the partially opened DB2 skin is flipped
1:00-1:10: the DB2 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
1:11-1:14: the DB2 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 3 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 24 seconds

The above numbers should be your benchmark when you make your next De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone skin :-D. For your convenience, here is the YouTube video:



Peter
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 07:12:45 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #553 on: September 07, 2013, 09:14:33 PM »
Norma,

I went back to the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 and viewed it several more times in order to get a better feel for the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench and the final skin is formed. In the video, two dough balls are formed, which I will refer to as DB1 and DB2. Here are the timelines for the two dough balls.

DB1
0:08-0:15: floured partially flattened DB1 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 7 seconds)
0:16: the partially opened DB1 skin is flipped
0:17-0:30: the DB1 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 13 seconds)
0:31: bench flour
0:32-0:36: the DB1 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 4 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 26 seconds

DB2
0:48-0:58: floured partially flattened DB2 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
0:59: the partially opened DB2 skin is flipped
1:00-1:10: the DB2 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
1:11-1:14: the DB2 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 3 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 24 seconds

The above numbers should be your benchmark when you make your next De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone skin :-D. For your convenience, here is the YouTube video:



Peter

Peter,

Lol, I didn't think of timing the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench until the final skin is formed.  I think the assembler next to him stretched the skin a little more as you could see in the one photo I posted.   Thanks for the timing sequences.  I don't think I will be that fast in doing those sequences, but I will try. 

BTW, I saw in this article that Tony Gemignani based his Trenton-style pizza on De Lorenzo/Hudson, but I have not seen any photos of his Trenton-style pizzas.

http://www.passion-4-pizza.com/tony-gemignani.html

I think I am going to ask Tony is he knows anything about how to make that kind of dough.  Maybe Tony could give us some insight on what the dough should be like since he knows about so many kinds of pizza doughs.  Another thing I would like to ask Tony if he ever ate pizzas at De Lorenzo/Hudson or touched their dough balls.  At least it can't hurt to ask.   

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #554 on: September 08, 2013, 09:33:02 AM »
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, one without sugar and one with sugar. Both are for 14" pizzas. For 16" pizzas, all that would be needed to create a formulation for that size would be to enter a dough ball weight of 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. That would be the value to enter into the expanded dough calculating tool for other sizes, although the only two sizes of pies that De Lorenzo/Robinsonville makes are 14" and 16". Both dough formulations set forth below are for a one-day cold fermentation.

In terms of the changes, you will note that I lowered the hydration value to 57%. Along with a total of 1% oil (an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil), the "effective" hydration is 58%. In my home setting, using my KitchenAid stand mixer or my Cuisinart food processor, or even a combination of both, it is hard for me to create a dough ball using a hydration below 57% and with 1% oil that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using its Hobart mixer and, apparently, a divider/rounder. But, apart from that, I would rather err on being on the high side of the hydration value and let the chips fall as they may. What I will be looking for is to see if you are able to make a skin in about 25 seconds. Of course, for that to happen, your dough ball at the time of opening will have to be in the same condition fermentation-wise as shown in the video. Also, the hydration will have to be of the proper value.

For the sugar version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, I used 1.5%. Even that might be a bit too high but we won't know if that is so until you make a crust using the sugar. Hopefully, the sugar won't cause too much bottom crust browning before the crust has had a chance to develop crispiness.

I also increased the amount of yeast, but only a little bit. The amount of IDY has always been somewhat on the high side because members have reported detecting a yeast flavor in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville crusts. As you know, the yeast used by De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville has always been shrouded in some mystery. For example, early on, member MTPIZZA insisted that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using something along the lines of a natural culture. I tested De Lorenzo clone doughs with my Ischia culture, and I also tested old dough methods. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, another member (bfx9) said that he was told by a server at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, who apparently made the dough at that location, that he thought that the yeast was made for them, although he didn't know where they got it from and thought that the yeast was maybe a special order. It occurred to me that maybe the server was thinking of fresh (cake) yeast. To a young, unitiated person, cake yeast might be considered an oddity. It should also be noted that back in the 1930s when the Trentonites started making tomato pies, cake yeast was the only commercial yeast available to bakers. Having watched how non-tech the De Lorenzo/Hudson business was, it would not shock me that they may have used fresh yeast for decades, even after ADY and IDY were invented. If De Lorenzo/Hudson was using fresh yeast at the time they closed, it also wouldn't surprise me if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville did the same. From what I have seen, just about everything that De Lorenzo/Hudson did with respect to its dough and pies carried over to the Robbinsville location. Even Gary and his wife Eileen spend time at the Robbinsville location, albeit only part time. You can see Gary make a cameo YouTube appearance at the Robbinsville location at



With the above as background, here are the modified De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, Without Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (159.92%):
179.94 g  |  6.35 oz | 0.4 lbs
102.56 g  |  3.62 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.7 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.44 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #3, With Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.42%):
178.26 g  |  6.29 oz | 0.39 lbs
101.61 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter

EDIT (9/8/12): Corrected De Lorenzo pie sizes
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 10:13:29 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #555 on: September 08, 2013, 09:37:56 AM »
Norma,

This morning, I found another collection of photos as apparently taken by diners at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville

https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #556 on: September 08, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, one without sugar and one with sugar. Both are for 12" pizzas. For 14" pizzas, all that would be needed to create a formulation for that size would be to enter a dough ball weight of 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. That would be the value to enter into the expanded dough calculating tool for other sizes, although the only two sizes of pies that De Lorenzo/Robinsonville makes are 12" and 14". Both dough formulations set forth below are for a one-day cold fermentation.

In terms of the changes, you will note that I lowered the hydration value to 57%. Along with a total of 1% oil (an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil), the "effective" hydration is 58%. In my home setting, using my KitchenAid stand mixer or my Cuisinart food processor, or even a combination of both, it is hard for me to create a dough ball using a hydration below 57% and with 1% oil that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using its Hobart mixer and, apparently, a divider/rounder. But, apart from that, I would rather err on being on the high side of the hydration value and let the chips fall as they may. What I will be looking for is to see if you are able to make a skin in about 25 seconds. Of course, for that to happen, your dough ball at the time of opening will have to be in the same condition fermentation-wise as shown in the video. Also, the hydration will have to be of the proper value.

For the sugar version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, I used 1.5%. Even that might be a bit too high but we won't know if that is so until you make a crust using the sugar. Hopefully, the sugar won't cause too much bottom crust browning before the crust has had a chance to develop crispiness.

I also increased the amount of yeast, but only a little bit. The amount of IDY has always been somewhat on the high side because members have reported detecting a yeast flavor in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville crusts. As you know, the yeast used by De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville has always been shrouded in some mystery. For example, early on, member MTPIZZA insisted that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using something along the lines of a natural culture. I tested De Lorenzo clone doughs with my Ischia culture, and I also tested old dough methods. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, another member (bfx9) said that he was told by a server at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, who apparently made the dough at that location, that he thought that the yeast was made for them, although he didn't know where they got it from and thought that the yeast was maybe a special order. It occurred to me that maybe the server was thinking of fresh (cake) yeast. To a young, unitiated person, cake yeast might be considered an oddity. It should also be noted that back in the 1930s when the Trentonites started making tomato pies, cake yeast was the only commercial yeast available to bakers. Having watched how non-tech the De Lorenzo/Hudson business was, it would not shock me that they may have used fresh yeast for decades, even after ADY and IDY were invented. If De Lorenzo/Hudson was using fresh yeast at the time they closed, it also wouldn't surprise me if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville did the same. From what I have seen, just about everything that De Lorenzo/Hudson did with respect to its dough and pies carried over to the Robbinsville location. Even Gary and his wife Eileen spend time at the Robbinsville location, albeit only part time. You can see Gary make a cameo YouTube appearance at the Robbinsville location at



With the above as background, here are the modified De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, Without Sugar
Pillbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (159.92%):
179.94 g  |  6.35 oz | 0.4 lbs
102.56 g  |  3.62 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.7 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.44 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 12" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #3, With Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.42%):
178.26 g  |  6.29 oz | 0.39 lbs
101.61 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 12" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter

Peter,

I know if you make a promise you will keep it.  I appreciate you set forth two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to try.  I will enter the TF of 0.065 and 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculation tool if that is right.  I might be confused, but I thought De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza sizes were 14” and 16”.  Also why would I used a dough ball weight of 13 ounces for a pizza size of 12” when you gave me 10 ounces for a 14” pizza in Reply 462  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 with the thickness factor of 0.065?  My printer isn't working right now so I would have to write down which formulation I want to try with a paper and pencil from the expanded dough calculation tool.   Wouldn't 13 ounces be for a 16” pizza?  Maybe I am not understanding something right. 

Thanks for telling me in your home setting with a hydration of 57% and 1% blend of oils it is hard for you to create a dough ball that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using their Hobart mixer. 

I don't know if I can open a skin in 25 seconds, but will try.

Bill and I didn't detect any yeast flavor in the pizza crust we had at De Lorenzo/Robbinville.  I know people reported a yeast flavor on the Trenton thread though.  I would think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville might be using cake yeast because a lot of bigger pizzerias do use that and cake yeast is old school.   

Thanks for the video where Gary makes a cameo appearance at the Robbinsville location.

If I ever get this type of pizza right I don't think I could offer it at market, because I think that type of pizza is better eaten fresh so the bottom crust stays crispy and crunchy, but I would like to be able to make a decent version to eat when I want.

I have some cake yeast at home right now, but I guess it would not be good to try that now.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #557 on: September 08, 2013, 11:17:18 AM »
Norma,

This morning, I found another collection of photos as apparently taken by diners at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville

https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the collection of photos you found.  I did see them in my searches.  It is always good to look at them again though, because they sure do make me hungry for another De Lorenzo's pizza.   ;D

I don't think I knew this before, but in my searches I saw a photo that I guess were De Lorenzo/Hamilton unbaked pizzas.  Maybe they sold them at the market that Bill and I were at before they closed their business there.  The big pizza in the photo does look like the rim crust is about the same as Bill and I ate though.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #558 on: September 08, 2013, 11:49:46 AM »
I know if you make a promise you will keep it.  I appreciate you set forth two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to try.  I will enter the TF of 0.065 and 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculation tool if that is right.  I might be confused, but I thought De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza sizes were 14” and 16”.  Also why would I used a dough ball weight of 13 ounces for a pizza size of 12” when you gave me 10 ounces for a 14” pizza in Reply 462  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 with the thickness factor of 0.065?  My printer isn't working right now so I would have to write down which formulation I want to try with a paper and pencil from the expanded dough calculation tool.   Wouldn't 13 ounces be for a 16” pizza?  Maybe I am not understanding something right. 
Norma,

I'm sorry I confused you. As you noted, I misstated the sizes of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pies. But to recapitulate, the amount of dough for the 14" size is 10 ounces; for the 16" size, it is 13 ounces. As I noted previously, 10 ounces and 13 ounces are nice round numbers. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. It is possible that De Lorenzo Robbinsville is making skins with different thickness factors, as often happens when places make more than one size pizza (Mellow Mushroom is a good example and Papa John's to a lesser degree), but for our purposes I used the same thickness factor for both the 14" and 16" sizes. I did not see any signs of scales at the De Lorenzo/Hudson location, so I suspect that after about 65 years in the business Gary Amico did not need a scale to measure out dough balls of the right sizes. The Robbinsville location may not need a scale either if it is using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported. Also, it does a much bigger business than was conducted at the Hudson location, which was only open on Thursdays through Sundays from 4 PM to 9 PM. By contrast, the Robbinsville location is open for lunch Tuesday-Friday, from 11 AM to 2PM, and for dinner Tuesday-Sunday, from 4 PM to 10 PM. They are closed on Mondays.

I have edited my last post to correct the misstatements on the pie sizes.

Peter


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #559 on: September 08, 2013, 12:59:51 PM »
Norma,

I'm sorry I confused you. As you noted, I misstated the sizes of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pies. But to recapitulate, the amount of dough for the 14" size is 10 ounces; for the 16" size, it is 13 ounces. As I noted previously, 10 ounces and 13 ounces are nice round numbers. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. It is possible that De Lorenzo Robbinsville is making skins with different thickness factors, as often happens when places make more than one size pizza (Mellow Mushroom is a good example and Papa John's to a lesser degree), but for our purposes I used the same thickness factor for both the 14" and 16" sizes. I did not see any signs of scales at the De Lorenzo/Hudson location, so I suspect that after about 65 years in the business Gary Amico did not need a scale to measure out dough balls of the right sizes. The Robbinsville location may not need a scale either if it is using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported. Also, it does a much bigger business than was conducted at the Hudson location, which was only open on Thursdays through Sundays from 4 PM to 9 PM. By contrast, the Robbinsville location is open for lunch Tuesday-Friday, from 11 AM to 2PM, and for dinner Tuesday-Sunday, from 4 PM to 10 PM. They are closed on Mondays.

I have edited my last post to correct the misstatements on the pie sizes.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for unconfusing me.  I thought I had lost it for a little.  :-D  I agree that 10 ounces for a 14” pizza and 13 ounces for a 16” pizza are nice round numbers.  I did not see any signs of scales either at De Lorenzo/Hudson when doing searches.  I understand that the new De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location might not need a scale either if they are using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported.  I wonder how they weight their ingredients for their doughs.  I know the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville locations does a much bigger business than the De Lorenzo/Hudson St. location.  I was surprised to see how big the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location was inside and how many pizzas they were making at one time.  It was somewhat amusing to see some tables that had three people seated at them and they did get 3 pizzas.  Even though De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are very light I could not eat a whole pizza even if it was a 14” pizza at one seating. 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #560 on: September 08, 2013, 01:58:34 PM »
I wonder how they weight their ingredients for their doughs.
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.



Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #561 on: September 08, 2013, 02:16:02 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, out of curiosity, I reworked the no-sugar dough formulation that I gave you with a starting flour amount of 50 pounds, or 800 ounces. That amount of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls. We don't know the mix of the two dough ball weights but a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs. For a 75/25 mix of large/small pizzas, with a total of 200 pizzas, three 50-lb bags might be needed.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 07:31:47 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #562 on: September 08, 2013, 02:21:22 PM »
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.



Peter

Peter,

I had thought about that Gary Amico and possibly his predecessors might have just used volume measurements.  I agree about the nice round numbers measuring in volume measurements.   I know my one pizza guy near me does that.  That was the first recipe I tried for pizza and you know how I messed everything up using those volume measurements.   :-D

I recall that Vito & Nick's video and how you, I and other members pondered over what really were the weights used.  At least it was fun.   

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #563 on: September 08, 2013, 08:55:05 PM »
Peter,

I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #564 on: September 08, 2013, 09:03:08 PM »
I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #565 on: September 08, 2013, 09:32:36 PM »
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter

Peter,

I must have missed that article in my searches.  I can't believe how many articles and other places do post about De Lorenzo/Robbinville/Hudson.  That was an eye opening thing for me.  I continue to find articles or places I haven't seen before.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #566 on: September 09, 2013, 11:51:25 AM »
Peter,

I mixed your De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, without sugar because I was curious to see if really any sugar in needed to get bottom crust browning.  The dough was finished mixing at 10:45 AM. 

I added all the other ingredients to the flour, except added the oil to the water.  The first mix was with the flat beater only again and was mixed on speeds two and three for 4 minutes.  The dough looked fine at that point (first photo).  I let the dough rest for 10 minutes and mixed on speed 4 for six more minutes.  My Kitchen Aid Professional HD did not have any trouble mixing the De Lorenzo Clone Formulation #2 with the flat beater only in both mixes.  I used my bigger scale again to weigh the flour and water and used my smaller scale to weigh the other ingredients.

The dough felt nice after both mixes and was 10.1 ounce so I took a little piece off and then balled and floured.  I used semolina on the bottom of the plastic container, just to see what semolina does on the bottom.  The dough balled easily.  The final dough temperature was 80.5 degrees F.

I took a short video of the second mix near the end of the mix to show how easily my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixes a dough like this that is somewhat lower in hydration.  I think my Kitchen Aid Professional HD could mix a dough that is lower in hydration without having to resort to other methods of mixing like finishing the mix by hand.  If I recall right, you said a dough like this might be harder to mix in your Kitchen Aid mixer.

Video




Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #567 on: September 09, 2013, 12:52:33 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188. The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #568 on: September 09, 2013, 06:06:02 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188. The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter

Peter,

Did you hear any sounds in the video I posted?  I could heard every sound when I listened to the video on my Media player, but I have no idea why I can't hear everything that went on when I uploaded it to YouTube.  My great-granddaugther was singing in the backround of that video, she was also watching TV which also was somewhat loud and the mixer did make noises.  When I tried to listen to that video on YouTube and here on the forum I heard nothing. 

I understand why you don't want to change mixers now since your mixer has served you well for all your experiments and cloning a reverse engineering pizzas. 

I could try the experiment making the dough like you gave Bob.  I think I would add more salt though if I am going to bake it into a pizza.  If I find time I will mix it this evening and will take another video.  What amount of IDY would you advise me to use if the dough would be used to make a pizza later tomorrow afternoon?

On the matter of cornmeal and semolina I only had that one kind of semolina at market (the one my daughter brought home from NYC awhile ago) and I brought it home from market for the dough ball I made today.  My semolina is lighter in color and really not that yellow.  I believe De Lorenzo/Sloan is using cornmeal, but I don't know what De Lorenzo Robbinsville is using. 

I took two videos at market today of my 20 qt. Hobart mixer in the 2 sequences that I mix the boardwalk style dough.  That thing is a work horse compared to my mixer at home.  I will post those videos later when they are finished uploading.  One video takes about an hour to upload on YouTube if it is longer than the one I posted earlier today.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #569 on: September 09, 2013, 06:59:17 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #570 on: September 09, 2013, 07:36:23 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you could hear my mixer in the video wailing away as it mixed the dough.  The mixer even drowned out my great-granddaugther singing, which is good because she has a bad head cold.  That is strange I can't hear the video here on the forum or on YouTube.  The last video from De Lorenzo/Robbinsville I could hear here on the forum. 

Thanks for telling me you would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time.

I have wondered too whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each others dough recipes.  I also think the loose lips due too much consumption of alcohol or for other reason they might know.  Who even knows, maybe Rick does use about the same formulation, but his dough weights more for the same size pizza.  Who even knows if Gary and Sam would tell anyone the truth about how much oil is in their dough.  If I had a famous dough recipe that made people come and get my pizzas the way De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson have them flocking I would not give it out to just anyone.  I really don't think Rick uses as much salt though.  I had planned to try 10 ounces of Rick's dough leftover from the large dough ball in my BS, but I became too busy trying to get things ready for an event at Root's on Saturday.  I figured if I stopped my work to make a pizza I would not want to start working again. 

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #571 on: September 09, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »


In case anyone doesn't know it, I do use the delayed method adding the oil after the first mix and a rest period before the oil is added.

This is the first video of my 20 qt. Hobart mixing the dough for the boardwalk style of pizzas.  This is the total time it took for the first mix. 



A rest period is done for 10 minutes, then the mixer it started again and mixed until the drizzled olive oil is incorporated. 

This is what the photos show.

1. Ingredients used for one batch of dough at market.
2. Dough after first mix, it looks shaggy, but there are no ingredients on the bottom of the mixer bowl.
3. All Trumps I use for the boardwalk style of pizza.
4. Shaggy dough resting.
5. Dough on bench after being mixed the second time.  It still looks somewhat shaggy.
6. How the dough stretches and is relaxing some after some dough is scaled.
7. How dough stretches after all the dough is scaled for one batch of dough.
8. Some balled dough balls.
9. Dough balls are starting to relax more after they are oiled and put into plastic bags.

I will post the second video of the delayed addition of the oil when it is finished uploading.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #572 on: September 09, 2013, 07:46:26 PM »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #573 on: September 09, 2013, 07:47:19 PM »
One photo I could not add in my last post.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #574 on: September 09, 2013, 09:12:19 PM »
This is the second part of the mix in the Hobart mixer with the drizzle of the olive oil down the side of the mixer bowl.  This was the total time mixed the second time too, expect I turned on the mixer first before I started taking the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbjgFHOAJKo&feature=youtu.be 

Please excuse the tiles that are off of my floor at market, but I am having problems with my deli case and water that defrosts from it accumulating and not drying out.  Each time I drain the water out it makes the floor wet, so the tiles came up and I am not going to put the tiles down again until I get that problem fixed.  I got some repair inserts for the drain tube at our local True Value hardware store, but each time I got them they weren't the right size.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:26:08 PM by norma427 »


 

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