Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 105314 times)

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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #650 on: September 18, 2013, 09:57:26 AM »
As requested I went back to page 9 and made it up to 23 so far…..just wanted to provide some commentary. I reviewed the photo group from 2008 and think I have the players figured out (I think)

It appears to me that the newer locations (Robbinsville and Sloan) spent a considerable amount of time replicating the operations of original.  There appears to be a heavy emphasis on the ovens and think that they feel it’s a critical part of their operations.  The Sloan location electing to find and implement 6 old Blodgett 1000’s (maybe some were carry over from a previous location) and Robbinsville electing to use a more modern Blodgett 1048.  Both similar ovens.  There appears to be a heavy emphasis on the crust and I suspect they feel it’s what sets them apart.

Temperature seems to be something they keep a careful eye on at the Sloan location by going so far as to modify the units with external thermometers (Personally I have never seen that one before).

In both cases the ovens are adjusted so the crust bottom gets the maximum amount of heat when compared to the top and sides.  I think this is a key element where they are attempting to get the bottom more bake time while attempting to produce less heat up top.  With the air flow adjustment flue’s set to their lowest possible position they are still not successful because the cheese is oiling off before they feel the pizza is ready.  They then proceed to pull the pizza, add fresh cheese then place on a hotter surface than previously (switch decks).  The idea here I suspect is to give the crust a little more crispness or doneness.  Even so, based on the pictures, the melt is pretty fresh, maybe a couple minutes – then the pizza is pulled.  So the crust does get a little more bake time with more heat for a couple minutes.

With so much concentration on the crust and temp (Oven type, lowered flue, deck switching, adding cheese during bake and external thermometers) I am wondering if the purpose is to dry out a wet dough.  Essentially, attempting to make wet dough crispier so it can hold its shape while eating, provide a lower crust layer of dryness/crisp at the same time provide upper crust softness attributed with wetter dough.  I think that skin thickness plays an important role here to achieve the desired finish.

At the Robbinsville location looking at the temperature knobs on their 1048, it looks like 600 not 550.  The knobs are in 50 degree increments with one number left to go.  Unless someone has seen those knobs or the pics can clearly show the temp, it appears to be 600.

From Norma’s trip to both locations the crusts look different.  The Sloan location crust is lighter in color, has some cornmeal/semolina on it and is under baked.  Based on the picture a portion of the crust was baked on a dead spot.  It is possible for this pizza that the maker was in hurry (maybe they were busy) and the deck did not recover when this pizza was baked.

In the dough trays in the Robbinsville pics, that’s definitely cornmeal, semolina is not as yellow.  If the ball is placed in cornmeal (or semolina for that matter) and fermented in the tray the cornmeal will embed in the dough.  The finished product will have portions of cornmeal baked into it.  That can be in the bottom or top of the crust depending on which side goes down on the deck.  I do not think that much is any cornmeal goes into the oven due to lack of oven scrapers and brushes, I noticed only 1.  In addition, they seem to like baking on dirty decks. I think that the tray has cornmeal to help in ball removal then it gets removed while they hand form the ball.  Forming the ball over the edge also helps with cornmeal removal as it will simply fall to the floor – the same is true for flour.  The finished pie slides into fairly dirty oven with carbonized cheese and flour  deposits. 

I think to replicate this pizza the big deal here is hydration levels, temp, oven type and skin thickness if the flour type is known and it appears it is. I have not had the opportunity to work with patent flour and do not know its hydration limitations.  If it’s similar to AP and based upon the pages I have now read I have to change my mind from a low hydration high oil to a high hydration and low oil.  The reason for higher hydration is the extensibility and for low oil is the color of the dough.

I do not think relaxers or strengtheners are used because I feel that these operations are desperately trying to duplicate the original formulation which I suspect back in those days was pretty simplistic. This could be argued of course, but as a starting point I would not use any additives.

I may have re-hashed what you already know but will add my 2 cents. Using AP as a model (I have not used Patent)

Hydration starting point is mid 50’s, starting at 56.  I would work my trials up in increments of 2%, so 56, 58, 60.  One of these I suspect will hit it.
Oil – use minimal so set a low oil starting point of 1.5%
Salt – I was mentioned no salt was tasted in the sample (I recall this to be the Sloan location) so a typical salt percentage at 1.5%
Yeast – I don’t use ADY and not sure on the percentages here so personally I would start at .375 which is a great all around percentage for a 24 to 48 hour rise (In my opinion).  I suspect this can be elevated at the end of the day, but a good starting point.
Sugar – none or .5% as the starting pint to only assist for the rise duration. I do not recall in any of the post I have read thus far that there was a taste of sweetness
Thickness – looks to be about ¼”.  Seems you have the weights and estimated sizes already plus the thickness figured out.

Using the GP61, the pizza must be cooked on the lower level, 3 minutes prior to finish, the pie is pulled, add a small amount of cheese and switch to the other side of the lower deck.
This will be harder to accomplish in this oven, the crust is a big deal here and how it's baked.  There has to be a large amount of heat energy applied to the bottom of the crust to dry it out and make it crisp.  With the GP deck thickness less than the 1000 or 1048 there is a possibility the pizza will need to be slid around the deck every 2 minutes lets say.  Maybe sliding it around 4 times for an 8 minute bake.


Just my 2 cents.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #651 on: September 18, 2013, 11:51:07 AM »
PizzaGarage,

Thank you very much for taking the time to go back into the thread and to give us your comments on what was previously reported. By and large, you came out pretty much where I ended after all was said and done. In fact, I have a dough ball in the refrigerator right now that has a hydration of 56%, oil (blend) at 1%, salt at 1.5%, and IDY at 0.20%. I used the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), which has a protein content of 12.7%, and elevated its protein content to 12.9% using a small amount of vital wheat gluten. The amount of yeast was selected to achieve a doubling of the dough after two days of cold fermentation. I have been tracking its volume expansion from time to time over the past 40 hours or so (using the poppy seed method) and it looks to be on track for a doubling after 48 hours. I was planning on summarizing the results of some of my recent test doughs, including the one now in the refrigerator, but I wanted to wait until the results were in on the most recent dough ball.

I also appreciate you comments regarding the cornmeal. However, when I checked the floor beneath the area where I formed the skins, I saw only white flour. But maybe it was there but I didn't see it because I didn't get down on my hands and knees to check. But I will do so today. I had also looked for an oven broom or brush but didn't see it. My recollection is that one of the members reported that the ovens at Robbinsville are periodically cleaned.

On the matter of the sugar, in my early clones I added 2% sugar since one of the members who frequented De Lorenzo/Hudson for years said that there was a certain sweetness in the crust. Later, another member, who was very friendly with Sam, said that Sam told him that there was no sugar in the dough. It was also Sam who said that there was only a little oil in the dough.

Thanks again for your help.

Peter

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #652 on: September 18, 2013, 12:54:12 PM »
In one of the pictures there is a thin handle over the oven at the Robbinsville location.  I was searching for it and it is there.  It's not a wooden paddle.  I will have to go back and find it but it is there.  Their operations was a lot of fun to look at.  Amazing the extent they went to duplicate the original operations, just following what was done in the past.  If it's working for them great, even though it's not very efficient.  I had to laugh when I saw the ticket printers right above the dough balls spewing tickets over the balls.  Then cutting the pie with a sharp knife directly on the aluminum tray.  Very interesting.

I do plan on ordering some patent flour now, it's enough to peak my interest to see what can be made with it.

Very interested in your outcome of the ball in works.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #653 on: September 18, 2013, 12:54:40 PM »
PizzaGarage,

I want to thank you very much too on going back through this thread and what was reported on the Trenton thread to give us your comments on how a pizza like at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson would be baked to get the characteristics we want.  Thanks also for giving your comments on what hydrations, oil amounts should be tested as Peter is already doing.

I can understand that it will be harder to accomplish a pizza like this in my Baker's Pride oven.  Since my oven is older and I don't keep my temperature at 550 degrees F (my temperatures vary greatly over the entire bottom deck), do you think I ever will be able to accomplish and have a bake that is right?  I appreciate you telling me what I would need to do to try and get a bake like De Lorenzo does. 

I wanted to ask you one more question if you don't mind asking.  How do you know so much information about everything related to pizza and ovens?

Norma

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #654 on: September 18, 2013, 01:40:31 PM »
I think you will be able to get close in the GP61 if you switch the pie around the 4 areas in 2 minutes increments.  Sounds odd, but the crust is the big deal with these people and overtime they have worked out the best process for their dough.  Even to the extent of adding cheese and deck switching to accomplish what I suspect they feel is their special crust. I think the idea is pretty neat and am curious what that crust texture is really like.  In my mind, the lower crust is crisp (but not too crisp like a cracker) if you are eating in house, with a softer upper crust.  I think it would be a very nice style and different than the typical thins as we are all used to.  I don't know more than any other person, just making the best educated guesses I can based on what I know today.  I want to try this style out and this is a great thread.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #655 on: September 18, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
I think you will be able to get close in the GP61 if you switch the pie around the 4 areas in 2 minutes increments.  Sounds odd, but the crust is the big deal with these people and overtime they have worked out the best process for their dough.  Even to the extent of adding cheese and deck switching to accomplish what I suspect they feel is their special crust. I think the idea is pretty neat and am curious what that crust texture is really like.  In my mind, the lower crust is crisp (but not too crisp like a cracker) if you are eating in house, with a softer upper crust.  I think it would be a very nice style and different than the typical thins as we are all used to.  I don't know more than any other person, just making the best educated guesses I can based on what I know today.  I want to try this style out and this is a great thread.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for giving me the instructions to try be able to get close to a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza  in my deck oven with switching the pie around the 4 areas in the bottom deck in 2 minute increments.

In my opinion until I tried De Lorenzo pizza at Robbinsville I wondered what the big deal was with their pizzas too.  I had thought that maybe their special type of pizza just had a huge following from all the years it was at Hudson in Trenton.  After I tried their pizza it then made me want to be able to try and replicate their pizzas more than ever.  It is hard for me to explain how their crust really is, but it is crispy and crunchy.  It is not like a cracker style or thin Chicago pizza.  You are right that it is not like a cracker in being too crisp. 

In my opinion you do know a lot about pizzas and ovens.  I hope you can make this type of pizza to enjoy.  Best of luck. 

I want to try out my Blackstone oven too for this type of pizza.  The BS can easily get up to 600 degrees F and a lot hotter.

Thanks again for all of your help!  ;D

Norma   

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #656 on: September 19, 2013, 08:08:06 AM »
I concluded the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough test yesterday but decided at the last minute to conduct an ancillary test using the same dough. That test should be completed sometime today. I will then summarize all of my recent test results.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #657 on: September 19, 2013, 08:48:40 AM »
I concluded the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough test yesterday but decided at the last minute to conduct an ancillary test using the same dough. That test should be completed sometime today. I will then summarize all of my recent test results.

Peter

Peter,

Looking forward to all of your recent test results.  ;D

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #658 on: September 19, 2013, 08:58:28 AM »
I have to do something about my floor at market sometime in the near future and that means moving everything out of my stand including the oven.  I am not sure if I can fit a Blodgett oven in at market instead of my oven, but there is a Blodgett for sale about 45 mintues away from where I live.  I talked to the lady this morning and she doesn't know what series the Blodgett is though.  If I go to look at the Blodgett this weekend what questions do I ask, or where do I look for what model it is?  I asked the lady to email me some more photos, but she said it is stored in their garage and she can't take any better photos right now and I should come and see the oven.  This is the photo of the Blodgett.  The lady did tell me the Blodgett is 4' in length and can bake 4 pizzas at one time.  The lady told me her brother and her did have a pizza business and they purchased this Blodgett not too long before they went out of business because they both have small children now and working 6 days a week with small children was too much.  The lady also told me they had other Blodgett ovens, but sold them.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:00:22 AM by norma427 »


Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #659 on: September 19, 2013, 11:23:27 AM »
That looks like a 1048.  Most of the time the labels are worn off due to age.  The 1048 will typically have a label indicating model (paper based) at the rear gas inlet.

The units will typically need a retrofit to meet safety standards consisting of a retrofit kit which will include a new TS Safety valve.  While that is replaced, it is also a good idea to install a new thermostat including a new temp sensor.  You can use OEM blodgett or 3rd party RobertShaw.  The OEM will cost significantly more.  Out the door you would pay about $600 for a new RobertShaw Thermostat + Safety valve.  So, something to keep in mind while you are shopping ovens.  While looking at the 1048, pay attention to the burners, you would not want a unit with burners which are rusted through.  If the stones are cracked, those cost about $250 each and there are 2 in the oven.  You can check with the seller to see if the retrofit/upgrade has been done.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #660 on: September 19, 2013, 11:46:39 AM »
That looks like a 1048.  Most of the time the labels are worn off due to age.  The 1048 will typically have a label indicating model (paper based) at the rear gas inlet.

The units will typically need a retrofit to meet safety standards consisting of a retrofit kit which will include a new TS Safety valve.  While that is replaced, it is also a good idea to install a new thermostat including a new temp sensor.  You can use OEM blodgett or 3rd party RobertShaw.  The OEM will cost significantly more.  Out the door you would pay about $600 for a new RobertShaw Thermostat + Safety valve.  So, something to keep in mind while you are shopping ovens.  While looking at the 1048, pay attention to the burners, you would not want a unit with burners which are rusted through.  If the stones are cracked, those cost about $250 each and there are 2 in the oven.  You can check with the seller to see if the retrofit/upgrade has been done.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me the photo of the Blodgett looks like a 1048 and most of the time the labels are worn off due to age.  I think I saw some TS Safety value retrofit kits on eBay.  Thanks for telling me that out the door I would pay about 600.00 for a new RobertShaw Thermostat + Safety value.  I will pay attention to the burners to see if they are rusted and also check the stones.  I made a mistake when I purchased my other oven, so this time I will be more careful.  The lady had the Blodgett listed for 3,600.00, but now reduced it to 1,600.00.  Do you think that is too much of a asking price if the oven is in good shape?   I have to ask if any of the conversions were done.

I am getting sick of my oven and having to rotate so much and still not getting consistently baked pizzas time after time.  Since I have to do something about my floor, that is why I am looking into an oven that might bake better.  I can't spend too much money though.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:49:53 AM by norma427 »

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #661 on: September 19, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »
If the oven is in decent shape (burners not rusted through and the oven generally clean) is it an excellent price.  If it does not have the updated safety kit, adding it will still put you in the good deal range.

Another note:  The oven requires 10" B-vent for exhaust (dual wall venting pipe) for direct vent , unless you are venting into an overhead system already (indirect venting).  If you are currently direct venting, you will need to add in the 10" B-vent material cost plus installation.  That is VERY expensive depending on the length of the entire direct vent system.  To give you an idea, a 10" 36" section of Type B vent will cost anywhere between $90 to $120 (material only).  It is really overpriced.  Ebay does have deals, occasionally a contractor will sell excess vent from a previous job.  If you do need to direct vent, you will also need the 1048 hood for attachment to the oven.  This is essentially an air plenum (about 2.5 ft high X 12" wide)) which smooths the flow from the oven into its transition to the 10" venting pipe.  If the oven includes the plenum that's even better. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #662 on: September 19, 2013, 12:21:11 PM »
If the oven is in decent shape (burners not rusted through and the oven generally clean) is it an excellent price.  If it does not have the updated safety kit, adding it will still put you in the good deal range.

Another note:  The oven requires 10" B-vent for exhaust (dual wall venting pipe) for direct vent , unless you are venting into an overhead system already (indirect venting).  If you are currently direct venting, you will need to add in the 10" B-vent material cost plus installation.  That is VERY expensive depending on the length of the entire direct vent system.  To give you an idea, a 10" 36" section of Type B vent will cost anywhere between $90 to $120 (material only).  It is really overpriced.  Ebay does have deals, occasionally a contractor will sell excess vent from a previous job.  If you do need to direct vent, you will also need the 1048 hood for attachment to the oven.  This is essentially an air plenum (about 2.5 ft high X 12" wide)) which smooths the flow from the oven into its transition to the 10" venting pipe.  If the oven includes the plenum that's even better.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me if the Blodgett even needs the safety kit it will still put me in a good deal range. 

I am not sure if I understand the 10”B-vent exhaust, but I understand more since you posted that it is a dual wall venting pipe and as far as I know I don't have that.  I think my current venting is direct venting.  Can you tell from the photo below what I really need?

Thanks for all of your help!

Norma

Edit:  These are closer photos of my current vent and also the outside vent pipe.  These photos were taken when my outside vent started leaking At Reply 637  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112464.html#msg112464
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:39:54 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #663 on: September 19, 2013, 02:03:53 PM »
Norma, a few things to consider.  First, the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from your GP-61.  While I believe the GP-61 has a single burner, the 1048 has two burners- which should provide a little more even heat, but you'll still need to do a considerable amount of turning. These kinds of ovens are not renowned for even baking.

Also, the shipping weight for the GP-61 is 525 lb. whereas the 1048 is 950 lb.  If your floor is having problems with the weight of the current oven, it's really going to have an issue with a 1048.

The oven changes I recommended a while back were primarily from a perspective of a faster, balanced bake, but they also incorporate even baking into account.  There's not an oven on the market that bakes faster, more balanced or more evenly than a Marsal MB- and that's the thermodynamics that my recommendations are attempting to recreate. With the right modifications, you can get considerably more out of the GP-61.

The 1048 is considerably more powerful, and power is nice,  but, at the end of the day, the 1048 is going to have a lot of the same issues that you're having now.  Now, if you wanted to purchase the 1048 and mod that, then that's another story.  With the right modifications of a 1048, you could have the equivalent of a $9K Marsal.  But you could still come very close to that same level of performance with your GP-61 with a few tweaks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #664 on: September 19, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »
As recently mentioned, I made a series of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs. In total, there were three dough balls, which for purposes of discussion I have called DB1, DB2 and DB3.

By design, the three dough balls had a lot in common. For example, all three dough balls weighed 10 ounces (to make 14” skins), and all three dough balls were made using King Arthur bread flour (KABF) to which a small amount of vital wheat gluten (about ¼-teaspoon) had been added to increase its protein content from 12.7% to 12.9% (the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour), and all had a corresponding thickness factor of 0.065. All of the dough balls were prepared the same way using my basic home KitchenAid stand mixer, all with late oil addition and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, and each dough ball was placed in a storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl) to which I had added some cornmeal. There was no oil added to either the dough balls or the storage containers. Each dough ball was left uncovered in its container in the refrigerator for about one hour, and the container was then lidded. After each dough ball was removed from the refrigerator after its specified fermentation period, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hours.

Here are more of the particulars for the three dough balls:

DB1: 55% hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.27% IDY, 1.5% salt; intended cold fermentation period = 2 days
DB2: 55%, hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.40% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 1 day
DB3: 56% hydration, 1% oil (blend), 0.20% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 2 days

As can be seen from the above numbers, dough balls DB1 and DB2 were the same but for the amount of yeast which, in each case, was selected to accommodate the specified intended cold fermentation period. This test was to compare a one-day versus two-day cold fermented dough. I was hoping for a doubling in volume for each dough ball by the end of its specified fermentation period but in light of the hot weather we have been having in Texas (in the 90s) I was willing to accept something more than a doubling. As it turned out, both dough balls tripled in volume. That turned out not to be a problem. Both dough balls exhibited softness to the touch when time came to form them into skins but they were too elastic to form into skins in any reasonable time frame. I intentionally tried to force them into compliance but they developed tears. I concluded that 55% hydration was perhaps too low, at least for the types of dough I am able to make using my KitchenAid stand mixer. I should also add that I was able to toss the skins made from the DB1 and DB2 dough balls.

For the third dough ball, DB3, which turned out to be the best of the three dough balls, I increased the hydration to 56% but I lowered the oil to1%. I also lowered the amount of yeast to 0.20%. This time, according to the poppy seed spacing (I used poppy seeds with all three dough balls), the dough ball exactly doubled after exactly 48 hours of cold fermentation. I was able to open up the dough ball with relative ease but I had to be careful because the dough was very extensible. And there was no way that I could toss and spin that skin. In retrospect, I should have let the dough temper for less than 1 ½ hours because of the warm conditions in my kitchen (it was 99 degrees outside). I think a half hour or maybe a little bit longer would have been sufficient.

Based on the tests, I would say that 56% hydration is a reasonable value, if the extensibility of the dough can be contained, but a hydration of 57% might also be a good value to test. But, hydration is not the only consideration. The degree of fermentation is also important because of its ancillary effect on extensibility. If the proteolytic enzymes in the flour, along with certain acids formed during fermentation, attack and degrade the gluten matrix of the dough, then the extensibility of the skin made from the dough will be excessive. That becomes quite noticeable when, at the same time, one is trying to make the skin very thin. Were I to repeat the last test, under my conditions in Texas, I might increase the hydration to 57% and lower the amount of yeast even more in order to better contain the fermentation of the dough. I might add that none of the dough balls exhibited bubbling of any kind while in the storage containers or on the bench, except for DB3 that started to form soft surface bubbling while tempering. That was a clue that it had perhaps tempered too much.

After I finished the tests discussed above, rather than throw the skins away, I decided to reform them into dough balls again and to put them back into the refrigerator again for another day. There was no delicate or gentle way of forming the dough balls from the skins, although I tried to be more gentle with the DB3 dough ball than with the others. I wanted to see if the dough balls would perform better the second time around. They did not. All three doughs were too elastic to readily form into skins in a reasonable time frame. I’m sure that had I been patient and eventually worked the skins into a usable condition, I could have used them to make pizzas but that was not the purpose of the additional tests. I can’t say that I was surprised by the unyielding nature of the dough balls the second time around. From what others have reported elsewhere on the forum, reballing seems to work best with high hydration doughs.

As a  final observation, after I formed the skins using the edge of my countertop and the skins draped over the edge of the countertop, I examined the flour and cornmeal on the floor beneath my countertop. It was a mixture of flour and cornmeal, just as PizzaGarage suspected.

I didn’t mention this earlier, but the method used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsvillle to form the skins using the edge of the work bench is not the first time I saw that method used. Several years ago, I ate at a pizzeria in Puerto Vallarta Mexico (on the Malecon across the street from the ocean) called La Dolce Vita where I saw a worker making the skins the same way. I was so taken by the exercise that I had to leave my table to go watch him make the skins.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:20:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #665 on: September 19, 2013, 02:13:44 PM »
That is a direct vent.  The oven is directly venting into the duct and though out the duct system to it's exit.  The diameter appears to be 8" it might be 10", hard to tell exactly.  I suspect it's 8".  There looks to be an air intake bell near the top of the ceiling, the duct might end in that bell where you might be able to reach in to feel the end of the duct ( 2 thin walls means it's a Type B vent).  I suspect that because of the presence of the bell itself, this is not Type B vent.  But a good idea to check.

The 1048 does require Type B and this would mean from the 1048 hood plenum up through the roof and above.  This could get expensive.  If the diameter of your existing vent it 8" it would mean all new venting including potentially increasing the hole in the roof to handle the increased diameter.  You should measure the diameter of the existing.  The majority of the larger deck ovens require Type B -  its pretty much a standard.

To give a very rough estimate, you would be looking at about $2500 for duct work and installation not including cutting a larger hole in the roof.  Prices vary greatly but it will be costly.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:26:21 PM by PizzaGarage »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #666 on: September 19, 2013, 05:25:37 PM »
Norma, a few things to consider.  First, the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from your GP-61.  While I believe the GP-61 has a single burner, the 1048 has two burners- which should provide a little more even heat, but you'll still need to do a considerable amount of turning. These kinds of ovens are not renowned for even baking.

Also, the shipping weight for the GP-61 is 525 lb. whereas the 1048 is 950 lb.  If your floor is having problems with the weight of the current oven, it's really going to have an issue with a 1048.

The oven changes I recommended a while back were primarily from a perspective of a faster, balanced bake, but they also incorporate even baking into account.  There's not an oven on the market that bakes faster, more balanced or more evenly than a Marsal MB- and that's the thermodynamics that my recommendations are attempting to recreate. With the right modifications, you can get considerably more out of the GP-61.

The 1048 is considerably more powerful, and power is nice,  but, at the end of the day, the 1048 is going to have a lot of the same issues that you're having now.  Now, if you wanted to purchase the 1048 and mod that, then that's another story.  With the right modifications of a 1048, you could have the equivalent of a $9K Marsal.  But you could still come very close to that same level of performance with your GP-61 with a few tweaks.

Scott,

Thanks for posting that the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from my GP-61.  I know the weight for a 1048 is 950 lb.  I did look that up.  I am having my floor tore out even if I don't purchase the Blodgett 1048 and am just getting flooring laid on the bare concrete.  I know that will be harder on my feet and legs, but I am partially upset that my floor didn't last that long and don't want to have to go though the same thing again. 

As I posted before I really don't want to do any mods to my current oven, even when I get my floor straightened out.

Maybe I don't understand enough about the Blodgett 1048. I thought the air flow adjustability could be adjusted by the flues to get better top crust browning on the Blogett 1048 as PizzaGarage posted at Reply 640 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279463.html#msg279463

After what PizzaGarage just posted, I think I will let the Blodgett 1048 go, because venting would cost too much for me for a one day a week pizza stand.  :o

Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #667 on: September 19, 2013, 05:39:41 PM »
As recently mentioned, I made a series of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs. In total, there were three dough balls, which for purposes of discussion I have called DB1, DB2 and DB3. By design, the three dough balls had a lot in common. For example, all three dough balls weighed 10 ounces (to make 14” skins), and all three dough balls were made using King Arthur bread flour (KABF) to which a small amount of vital wheat gluten (about ¼-teaspoon) had been added to increase its protein content from 12.7% to 12.9% (the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour), and all had a corresponding thickness factor of 0.065. All of the dough balls were prepared the same way using my basic home KitchenAid stand mixer, and each dough ball was placed in a storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl) to which I had added some cornmeal. There was no oil added to either the dough balls or the storage containers. After each dough ball was removed from the refrigerator after its specified fermentation period, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hours.

Here are more of the particulars for the three dough balls:

DB1: 55% hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.27% IDY, 1.5% salt; intended cold fermentation period = 2 days
DB2: 55%, hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.40% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 1 day
DB3: 56% hydration, 1% oil (blend), 0.20% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 2 days

As can be seen from the above numbers, dough balls DB1 and DB2 were the same but for the amount of yeast which, in each case, was selected to accommodate the specified intended cold fermentation period. This test was to compare a one-day versus two-day cold fermented dough. I was hoping for a doubling in volume for each dough ball by the end of its specified fermentation period but in light of the hot weather we have been having in Texas (in the 90s) I was willing to accept something more than a doubling. As it turned out, both dough balls tripled in volume. That turned out not to be a problem. Both dough balls exhibited softness to the touch when time came to form them into skins but they were too elastic to form into skins in any reasonable time frame. I intentionally tried to force them into compliance but they developed tears. I concluded that 55% hydration was perhaps too low, at least for the types of dough I am able to make using my KitchenAid stand mixer.

For the third dough ball, DB3, which turned out to be the best of the three dough balls, I increased the hydration to 56% but I lowered the oil to1%. I also lowered the amount of yeast to 0.20%. This time, according to the poppy seed spacing (I used poppy seeds with all three dough balls), the dough ball exactly doubled after exactly 48 hours of cold fermentation. I was able to open up the dough ball with relative ease but I had to be careful because the dough was very extensible. In retrospect, I should have let the dough temper for less than 1 ½ hours because of the warm conditions in my kitchen (it was 99 degrees outside). I think a half hour or maybe a little bit longer would have been sufficient.

Based on the tests, I would say that 56% hydration is a reasonable value, if the extensibility of the dough can be contained, but a hydration of 57% might also be a good value to test. But, hydration is not the only consideration. The degree of fermentation is also important because of its ancillary effect on extensibility. If the proteolytic enzymes in the flour, along with certain acids formed during fermentation, attack and degrade the gluten matrix of the dough, then the extensibility of the skin made from the dough will be excessive. That becomes quite noticeable when, at the same time, one is trying to make the skin very thin. Were I to repeat the last test, under my conditions in Texas, I might increase the hydration to 57% and lower the amount of yeast even more in order to better contain the fermentation of the dough. I might add that none of the dough balls exhibited bubbling of any kind while in the storage containers or on the bench, except for DB3 that started to form soft surface bubbling while tempering. That was a clue that it had perhaps tempered too much.

After I finished the tests discussed above, rather than throw the skins away, I decided to reform them into dough balls again and to put them back into the refrigerator again for another day. There was no delicate or gentle way of forming the dough balls from the skins, although I tried to be more gentle with the DB3 dough ball than with the others. I wanted to see if the dough balls would perform better the second time around. They did not. All three doughs were too elastic to readily form into skins in a reasonable time frame. I’m sure that had I been patient and eventually worked the skins into a usable condition, I could have used them to make pizzas but that was not the purpose of the additional tests. I can’t say that I was surprised by the unyielding nature of the dough balls the second time around. From what others have reported elsewhere on the forum, reballing seems to work best with high hydration doughs.

As a  final observation, after I formed the skins using the edge of my countertop and the skins draped over the edge of the countertop, I examined the flour and cornmeal on the floor beneath my countertop. It was a mixture of flour and cornmeal, just as PizzaGarage suspected.

I didn’t mention this earlier, but the method used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsvillle to form the skins using the edge of the work bench is not the first time I saw that method used. Several years ago, I ate at a pizzeria in Puerto Vallarta Mexico (on the Malecon across the street from the ocean) called La Dolce Vita where I saw a worker making the skins the same way. I was so taken by the exercise that I had to leave my table to go watch him make the skins.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for describing your experiments in great detail.  Do you have an exact formulation in mind for anyone that might want to try one out?  I might experiment with DB3 or the one you said might be a good value to try out at 57% hydration.  Your hot weather you are experiencing is a lot worse that the market conditions I have to work in sometimes. 

Do you think the advantage of stretching over the bench table edge is to make faster skins for pizzas?  It looked to me like at De Lorenzo/Sloan they also were cranking out those skins just as fast and they didn't use the same method.

Do you also think my BS might give me better results than my deck oven?  When I tried to make the De Lorenzo pizza before in the BS I think I only had the temperature on the stone up to about 534 degrees F because I was worried the bottom might baked too fast.   

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #668 on: September 19, 2013, 05:46:27 PM »
That is a direct vent.  The oven is directly venting into the duct and though out the duct system to it's exit.  The diameter appears to be 8" it might be 10", hard to tell exactly.  I suspect it's 8".  There looks to be an air intake bell near the top of the ceiling, the duct might end in that bell where you might be able to reach in to feel the end of the duct ( 2 thin walls means it's a Type B vent).  I suspect that because of the presence of the bell itself, this is not Type B vent.  But a good idea to check.

The 1048 does require Type B and this would mean from the 1048 hood plenum up through the roof and above.  This could get expensive.  If the diameter of your existing vent it 8" it would mean all new venting including potentially increasing the hole in the roof to handle the increased diameter.  You should measure the diameter of the existing.  The majority of the larger deck ovens require Type B -  its pretty much a standard.

To give a very rough estimate, you would be looking at about $2500 for duct work and installation not including cutting a larger hole in the roof.  Prices vary greatly but it will be costly.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me I have a direct vent.  I will have to try and measure the diameter to see if it is 8” or 10” and feel inside to see if there might 2 thin walls.  I get a little worried about climbing on top of the oven and measuring things when my flooring isn't the greatest under the oven.  That is the only way I will be able to measure it though.  I was already at market today and don't know if I am going there tomorrow or not. 

I know I would not be allowed to mess with the roof at market again.  My roof at the vent was repaired many times.

I guess I will just let the Blodgett go. 

Thanks again for your help with the venting!

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #669 on: September 20, 2013, 09:38:53 AM »
Thank you for describing your experiments in great detail.  Do you have an exact formulation in mind for anyone that might want to try one out?  I might experiment with DB3 or the one you said might be a good value to try out at 57% hydration.  Your hot weather you are experiencing is a lot worse that the market conditions I have to work in sometimes. 

Do you think the advantage of stretching over the bench table edge is to make faster skins for pizzas?  It looked to me like at De Lorenzo/Sloan they also were cranking out those skins just as fast and they didn't use the same method.

Do you also think my BS might give me better results than my deck oven?  When I tried to make the De Lorenzo pizza before in the BS I think I only had the temperature on the stone up to about 534 degrees F because I was worried the bottom might baked too fast.   
Norma,

I should be able to come up with a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you and others to try. Do you have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation? I went with the two-day dough tests simply because one or more members previously said that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville used more than one day. Normally, when one goes beyond about two days of cold fermentation, sugar is commonly added to the dough. But if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses no sugar, as was previously reported, a two-day cold fermentation seems plausible.

As for the gravity method of forming skins, I think there are two advantages to that method. First, it is faster than other methods because everything is done on a flat, smooth surface up until the final spreading of the skin, and that takes only a few seconds (more on this below). Second, so long as the skin has sufficient hydration such that it can be opened on the work surface by the use of both hands in a circular motion, the skin thickness is likely to be more uniformly thin across the entire skin, that is, without a mix of thick and thin spots. As we have seen, at Robbinsville, the only lifting of the skin off of the work surface is for the final few seconds. And, as I noted at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277769.html#msg277769, that final time is about three or four seconds. In a high volume operation, every second counts. I think another advantage of the gravity method is that if the dough balls are leading to overly extensible skins, or maybe even overly elastic skins, the person opening the dough balls will note that condition and maybe make adjustments to compensate.

When I looked at the photos and other visual material for the Sloan operation, I did not see incontrovertible evidence of the use of gravity method. Sloan uses a smooth work surface and from the photos it looks like the gravity method could work (see, for example, the photos you showed in Replies 330 and 331 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275421.html#msg275421 but I did not see any actual use of the gravity method. Maybe the dough roller is used even though I did not see actual signs of such use.

I also tried to recall whether De Lorenzo/Hudson used the gravity method. So, this morning, I went back in search of a photo or video showing same. The best I could find is this YouTube video, at 2:05:



While I was trying to locate that video, I also found another video that shows the De Lorenzo/Hudson dough balls being put into a dough box with what appears to be cornmeal, at 1:16 in this YouTube video:



These are both videos that we saw before but were perhaps looking for other clues at the time.

With respect to the use of the BlackStone unit, it may be worth trying to make a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza given the versatility of that unit. I suppose you could do that using the same dough formulation as you would use in relation to your deck oven at work with the changes in the bake protocol suggested by PizzaGarage.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #670 on: September 20, 2013, 12:09:48 PM »
Norma,

I should be able to come up with a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you and others to try. Do you have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation? I went with the two-day dough tests simply because one or more members previously said that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville used more than one day. Normally, when one goes beyond about two days of cold fermentation, sugar is commonly added to the dough. But if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses no sugar, as was previously reported, a two-day cold fermentation seems plausible.

As for the gravity method of forming skins, I think there are two advantages to that method. First, it is faster than other methods because everything is done on a flat, smooth surface up until the final spreading of the skin, and that takes only a few seconds (more on this below). Second, so long as the skin has sufficient hydration such that it can be opened on the work surface by the use of both hands in a circular motion, the skin thickness is likely to be more uniformly thin across the entire skin, that is, without a mix of thick and thin spots. As we have seen, at Robbinsville, the only lifting of the skin off of the work surface is for the final few seconds. And, as I noted at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277769.html#msg277769, that final time is about three or four seconds. In a high volume operation, every second counts. I think another advantage of the gravity method is that if the dough balls are leading to overly extensible skins, or maybe even overly elastic skins, the person opening the dough balls will note that condition and maybe make adjustments to compensate.

When I looked at the photos and other visual material for the Sloan operation, I did not see incontrovertible evidence of the use of gravity method. Sloan uses a smooth work surface and from the photos it looks like the gravity method could work (see, for example, the photos you showed in Replies 330 and 331 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275421.html#msg275421 but I did not see any actual use of the gravity method. Maybe the dough roller is used even though I did not see actual signs of such use.

I also tried to recall whether De Lorenzo/Hudson used the gravity method. So, this morning, I went back in search of a photo or video showing same. The best I could find is this YouTube video, at 2:05:



While I was trying to locate that video, I also found another video that shows the De Lorenzo/Hudson dough balls being put into a dough box with what appears to be cornmeal, at 1:16 in this YouTube video:



These are both videos that we saw before but were perhaps looking for other clues at the time.

With respect to the use of the BlackStone unit, it may be worth trying to make a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza given the versatility of that unit. I suppose you could do that using the same dough formulation as you would use in relation to your deck oven at work with the changes in the bake protocol suggested by PizzaGarage.

Peter

Peter,

I really don't have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation for me to try, but don't know what other members might want to try. 

Thanks for mentioning the reasons why you think using a gravity method is better and how that can produce faster skins. 

I did not see the dough roller being used at Sloan, but it could have been used that I did not see.

The video you posted first does show De Lorenzo/Hudson also used the gravity method there and I had missed that before.

I thought PizzaGarage said in the second video you posted that that yellow substance was too yellow to be cornmeal.  I don't think I saw in the second video before that the assembler started with an fresh dough ball at around 2:34 minutes into that video.  When I was at the Robbinsville location I did not see how a dough ball looked before it was started to be opened.

I can use PizzaGarage's recommendations of how to try and bake in my oven at market.  I will try the BS at some point too.   

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #671 on: September 20, 2013, 12:58:30 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall that PizzaGarage specifically addressed the video you referenced with respect to the connmeal used at De Lorenzo/Hudson, but at Reply 650 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279814.html#msg279814, this is what he said about the cornmeal at Robbinsville:

In the dough trays in the Robbinsville pics, that’s definitely cornmeal, semolina is not as yellow.  If the ball is placed in cornmeal (or semolina for that matter) and fermented in the tray the cornmeal will embed in the dough.  The finished product will have portions of cornmeal baked into it.  That can be in the bottom or top of the crust depending on which side goes down on the deck.  I do not think that much is any cornmeal goes into the oven due to lack of oven scrapers and brushes, I noticed only 1.  In addition, they seem to like baking on dirty decks. I think that the tray has cornmeal to help in ball removal then it gets removed while they hand form the ball.  Forming the ball over the edge also helps with cornmeal removal as it will simply fall to the floor – the same is true for flour.

As for what the dough balls look like at Robbinsville before opening to form skins, I assume that they look like the ones in the dough boxes shown at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3155_JPG.htm or in the work area at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm. Of course, over time, as the dough balls sit around, their shapes can change quite a bit depending on the stage of fermentation and/or tempering.

Sometime tomorrow I will post some De Lorenzo clone dough formulations for you and other members to try.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #672 on: September 20, 2013, 01:47:40 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall that PizzaGarage specifically addressed the video you referenced with respect to the connmeal used at De Lorenzo/Hudson, but at Reply 650 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279814.html#msg279814, this is what he said about the cornmeal at Robbinsville:

In the dough trays in the Robbinsville pics, that’s definitely cornmeal, semolina is not as yellow.  If the ball is placed in cornmeal (or semolina for that matter) and fermented in the tray the cornmeal will embed in the dough.  The finished product will have portions of cornmeal baked into it.  That can be in the bottom or top of the crust depending on which side goes down on the deck.  I do not think that much is any cornmeal goes into the oven due to lack of oven scrapers and brushes, I noticed only 1.  In addition, they seem to like baking on dirty decks. I think that the tray has cornmeal to help in ball removal then it gets removed while they hand form the ball.  Forming the ball over the edge also helps with cornmeal removal as it will simply fall to the floor – the same is true for flour.

As for what the dough balls look like at Robbinsville before opening to form skins, I assume that they look like the ones in the dough boxes shown at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3155_JPG.htm or in the work area at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm. Of course, over time, as the dough balls sit around, their shapes can change quite a bit depending on the stage of fermentation and/or tempering.

Peter

Peter,

I got it mixed up what PizzaGarage posted about the cornmeal in the dough trays in the Robbinsville photos.  I was at our local Country Store yesterday and the semolina there was a bright yellow color.  I did not purchase any though, because I thought what would be the use. 

I did see those photos of what the dough balls looked like at Robbinsville before opening them into skins.  Maybe it was just in the video that you posted that the dough ball might not have been as fermented as much, or maybe it just looked smaller to me in the video.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #673 on: September 20, 2013, 09:32:58 PM »
It is possible that the .065 is too thin?  I know based on the available information that number is the number that was calculated...I keep looking at the pics of the balls at the Robbinsville location where the dough balls are under the ticket printer area.  Those look like somewhere between 16 and 18 oz to me anyway.  That seems out of line with earlier analysis.  However, when Peter was attempting to make the skin it was mentioned that the skin appeared to be able to tear easily.  The skins at Robbinsville do not appear to be able to tear easy ( they look pretty hearty?)

Is it possible the weight per ball needs to be increased? By taking the ball to 16 oz it would produce a thicker crust and also maybe make the skin a little easier to handle as the Robbinsville skins appear to be.

Norma, the Semolina I use and have seen has always been less yellow than corn meal, more like a pale yellow.  It is possible of course that a manufacturer makes semolina that is more yellow, personally I have not seen it which is why I made I my comments. 


Brad

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #674 on: September 20, 2013, 09:46:03 PM »
I did not see the dough roller being used at Sloan, but it could have been used that I did not see.
Norma, 

I was re-reading parts of the Trenton thread and noticed from Reply 174 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 where member bfx9  said that De Lorenzo Pizzas had a dough roller at the Risoldi's market which, as you know, stopped selling the prepackaged De Lorenzo Pizza pizzas. It occurs to me that that dough roller may be the one that was shown in photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location, against a side wall in a corner. If so, that might explain why the dough roller was so far away from the make area.

Peter