Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 99063 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #675 on: September 20, 2013, 10:01:36 PM »


Norma, the Semolina I use and have seen has always been less yellow than corn meal, more like a pale yellow.  It is possible of course that a manufacturer makes semolina that is more yellow, personally I have not seen it which is why I made I my comments. 


Brad

Brad,

I am sure no expert on cornmeal and semolina on what colors they are.  I had so many problems with semolina before it getting the right kind and I did not ever get the right kind for another thread.  What I believe the Country Store sells is Con Agra King Midas semolina.  I should have taken a photo to show how yellow it was.  When I get to the Country Store again I can take a photo of the semolina if you want me to.

I still wonder about how hearty Robbinsville stretched skins looked in person.  I might go to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville again in the next two months, but Trenton Bill said he would not go with me if I took a camera again.   I will have to see what I can do about that.   :-D

Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #676 on: September 20, 2013, 10:19:31 PM »
Norma, 

I was re-reading parts of the Trenton thread and noticed from Reply 174 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 where member bfx9  said that De Lorenzo Pizzas had a dough roller at the Risoldi's market which, as you know, stopped selling the prepackaged De Lorenzo Pizza pizzas. It occurs to me that that dough roller may be the one that was shown in photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location, against a side wall in a corner. If so, that might explain why the dough roller was so far away from the make area.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the link to where bfx9 posted that De Lorenzo Pizza had a dough roller at Risoldi's market.  It might have been the same dough roller that was shown in the photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location.  bfx9 posted in his last paragraph that both pizzas are very close.  I just wonder how close both of their doughs might be.  If they all learned how to make the dough a long time ago the same, I wonder why they might make the dough that much differently now.  I might have to get that frozen dough ball out from De Lorenzo/Sloan and give it a shot again.  I think the salt amount is too low, but maybe I could learn more how the dough handles if I try it again.  My last shot was using the whole small dough ball for a 14” pizza. 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #677 on: September 21, 2013, 07:15:47 AM »
Thanks for referencing the link to where bfx9 posted that De Lorenzo Pizza had a dough roller at Risoldi's market.  It might have been the same dough roller that was shown in the photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location.  bfx9 posted in his last paragraph that both pizzas are very close.  I just wonder how close both of their doughs might be.  If they all learned how to make the dough a long time ago the same, I wonder why they might make the dough that much differently now
Norma,

If you haven't already seen it, there is a very nice writeup at http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/ on how the two De Lorenzo businesses, De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and De Lorenzo Pizza, came to be. As you can see from the article, originally there were twelve De Lorenzo siblings, all of whom apparently lived under the same roof at one time and one or more of whom, but maybe most notably, Joe, were credited as having come up with the original De Lorenzo dough recipe. In due time, all of the siblings learned how to make pizza from each other and, eventually, events conspired that led to the establishment of the two separate pizza businesses. With the passage of time, the two businesses diverged from each other and, from all reports, the original dough recipe also changed at the two businesses. There would have been little or no merit to the two businesses offering the same product. That would have led to confusion and might have also led to efforts on the parts of the two businesses to try to steal each other's customers.  In the process, a name that was highly respected in the community would have been severely tarnished and a stake would have been driven between the two sides of the De Lorenzo family that could have been fatal to both businesses. Clearly, the better course was for the two businesses to compete on a level playing field and to use product differentiation and other differences to compete with each other.

Fast forward to the present, the question of the two recipes was addressed by Sam Amico at page 38 of the article at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf where, in noting the two different De Lorenzo businesses, Sam said "Same family. Different Recipes." As for the Rick De Lorenzo side, credit is taken by Rick De Lorenzo (Jr.) and possibly his children for the current recipe used at De Lorenzo Pizza, as noted in the "About" paragraph at http://local.yahoo.com/info-10961042-de-lorenzo-s-pizza-trenton?csz=Yardville%2C+Trenton%2C+NJ+08620.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #678 on: September 21, 2013, 08:29:49 AM »
Norma,

If you haven't already seen it, there is a very nice writeup at http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/ on how the two De Lorenzo businesses, De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and De Lorenzo Pizza, came to be. As you can see from the article, originally there were twelve De Lorenzo siblings, all of whom apparently lived under the same roof at one time and one or more of whom, but maybe most notably, Joe, were credited as having come up with the original De Lorenzo dough recipe. In due time, all of the siblings learned how to make pizza from each other and, eventually, events conspired that led to the establishment of the two separate pizza businesses. With the passage of time, the two businesses diverged from each other and, from all reports, the original dough recipe also changed at the two businesses. There would have been little or no merit to the two businesses offering the same product. That would have led to confusion and might have also led to efforts on the parts of the two businesses to try to steal each other's customers.  In the process, a name that was highly respected in the community would have been severely tarnished and a stake would have been driven between the two sides of the De Lorenzo family that could have been fatal to both businesses. Clearly, the better course was for the two businesses to compete on a level playing field and to use product differentiation and other differences to compete with each other.

Fast forward to the present, the question of the two recipes was addressed by Sam Amico at page 38 of the article at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf where, in noting the two different De Lorenzo businesses, Sam said "Same family. Different Recipes." As for the Rick De Lorenzo side, credit is taken by Rick De Lorenzo (Jr.) and possibly his children for the current recipe used at De Lorenzo Pizza, as noted in the "About" paragraph at http://local.yahoo.com/info-10961042-de-lorenzo-s-pizza-trenton?csz=Yardville%2C+Trenton%2C+NJ+08620.

Peter


Peter,

I did see that nice writeup, but don't know what is wrong with my mind that I don't comprehend everything the first time I read a longer article.  I know my mind isn't like it used to be.  :-D  I can understand there it little or not merit to the two businesses offering the exact same product.  I know De Lorenzo/Sloan uses different tomato products and a different cheese product, but still wonder about about how close their dough recipes might be.  They probably are not the same, but the crust is what mainly attracts customers in my opinion, in addition to the dressings.  It is that thin crispy and crunchy crust that has some kind of magic in it.  I know Trenton Bill and I did not experience that magic, but would think other customers at De Lorenzo/Sloan must like their pizzas compared to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville if they keep coming back.  I have no idea if a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would produce the same crust if it was less in dough weight and baked longer. 

I saw on facebook that DeLorenzo's Pizza had a new website today.  This is the History part of their website.  http://www.delorenzospizza.com/#!about/c1j4r  The about part has to be clicked on to see the history.  I didn't know that Joe mastered the art of Pizzaiola while working for another pizzeria in the neighborhood, but your first referenced article confirms that too.  Since I am the curious type of person, and I know I let my imagination run too far sometimes, I still would like to know how the De Lorenzo's changed from the old type of oven they used many years ago and now produce about the same types of pizzas.  The photo below is of Jimmie near the old oven.  I knew who that was since Jim De Lorenzo posted photos on pinterest.  http://www.pinterest.com/jhd16/delorenzo-family/  It names all of the family at the right photo on the bottom of the pinterest link.
   
Rick De Lorenzo's says this in the last link you referenced:

About: The DeLorenzo Family has been serving their Award Winning Pizza since 1938. Winner of New Jersey Magazines' Readers Choice Award in 1986,1993 and 1997, DeLorenzo's prides itself on our worldwide reputation for a One of a Kind Pizza and our fast and friendly service. The recipe for our thin crust crispy pizza was formulated years ago by older brothers Joe, Chick, Tony and Jimmy and handed down to younger brothers Pat, Rick, John and Ray. Today the family recipe is created and served by Rick's son, Rick Jr., and his children Michael, Melissa and Maria. We use only garden fresh California grown tomato's and premium cheese's from Wisconsin to make our delicious pizza's. Our goal here at DeLorenzo's is to make a pizza of superior quality and to serve it in a family friendly atmosphere at a reasonable price. From the awards and customer accolade's we have received throughout the years, I'd say we are accomplishing our goal.

So who is using the original recipe for the dough.   ::)

Norma
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:33:40 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #679 on: September 21, 2013, 09:07:40 AM »
It is possible that the .065 is too thin?  I know based on the available information that number is the number that was calculated...I keep looking at the pics of the balls at the Robbinsville location where the dough balls are under the ticket printer area.  Those look like somewhere between 16 and 18 oz to me anyway.  That seems out of line with earlier analysis.  However, when Peter was attempting to make the skin it was mentioned that the skin appeared to be able to tear easily.  The skins at Robbinsville do not appear to be able to tear easy ( they look pretty hearty?)

Is it possible the weight per ball needs to be increased? By taking the ball to 16 oz it would produce a thicker crust and also maybe make the skin a little easier to handle as the Robbinsville skins appear to be.
Brad,

Like you, I tried to divine the sizes (and diameters) of the dough balls shown in the same photos that you looked at. In fact, I wrote about my efforts along these lines at the Trenton thread at Reply 154 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg58415.html#msg58415 and later at Reply 157 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg59292.html#msg59292. I eventually concluded that camera distances and angles can make it difficult to ascertain dimensions of things in photos (and also videos). If an object of known dimensions had been placed next to the dough balls as shown in the photos, I might have had a shot at coming up with some useful numbers.

Maybe you have already seen it, but I described the way that I came up with the 0.065 thickness factor at Reply 306 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275023/topicseen.html#msg275023. Under the circumstances, that was an approach that seemed viable at the time.

An opportunity to check the validity of my 0.065 thickness factor came from two dough balls that Norma was able to purchase from De Lorenzo/Sloan. The two dough balls weighed 11.2 ounces and 16.7 ounces. The 11.2 ounce dough ball was for a 14” pizza and the 16.7 ounce dough ball was for a 16” pizza. These are the same sizes as sold at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. In Reply 347 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275514.html#msg275514, I calculated the corresponding thickness factors for the two Sloan dough balls/sizes as follows:

11.2 ounces (14"): TF = 11.2 (3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276
16.7 ounces (16"): TF = 16.7/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08306

These numbers take on significance relative to the 0.065 thickness factor when we consider that, according to many reports on the two different De Lorenzo businesses, the crusts of the De Lorenzo Sloan pizzas are thicker than the crusts of the De Lorenzo Hudson pizzas, and presumably the ones now made at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. Typical of such a report is the Serious Eats/Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html, where the different crust thicknesses was specifically mentioned. In a subsequent Serious Eats/Slice article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/03/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-redux.html, the writer made a point to specifically comment on the thinness of the crust at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. Closer to home, the photos that Norma took and posted of the pizza that she and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, also seem to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. Norma also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

As part of my research on the thickness factor issue, I also took note of the photos showing dough ball sizes at De Lorenzo Hudson at Reply 484 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276892.html#msg276892 and at 1:16 of this video:



Again, with camera angles, it is hard to be sure but the dough balls do not look especially large to me.

Now, turning to the 16 ounce and 18 ounce dough ball sizes you mentioned, assuming that those weights are for the 14” and 16” sizes, respectively, the corresponding thickness factors are as follows:

14”: 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.103938
16”: 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953

If you mean the 16 ounce dough ball weight to be for the 16” size, the corresponding thickness factor is:
16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958

I believe that the above analysis points to smaller dough ball weights at Robbinsville than at Sloan and, therefore, smaller thickness factors. I had always held out the possibility of tweaking the 0.065 number if Norma were able to come close to making a credible Robbinsville/Hudson clone but didn’t quite nail it. But I felt that getting a credible De Lorenzo Robbinsville/Hudson clone dough formulation was the more important milestone to reach.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #680 on: September 21, 2013, 12:01:25 PM »
Norma,

I know De Lorenzo/Sloan uses different tomato products and a different cheese product, but still wonder about about how close their dough recipes might be.  They probably are not the same, but the crust is what mainly attracts customers in my opinion, in addition to the dressings.  It is that thin crispy and crunchy crust that has some kind of magic in it.  I know Trenton Bill and I did not experience that magic, but would think other customers at De Lorenzo/Sloan must like their pizzas compared to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville if they keep coming back.  I have no idea if a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would produce the same crust if it was less in dough weight and baked longer.

As was previously discussed, if we assume that your results from conducting the last two Sloan hydration bake tests were correct, and that my similar test results with the Sloan clone test dough were also correct, and we also assume that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough contains only a small amount of oil, then I cannot see how the Sloan dough would be the same as the Robbinsville dough, even if the thickness factors were the same. However, I don't see anything wrong with your taking a part of the large Sloan dough ball that you purchased from Sloan and making a skin with a thickness factor of 0.065 or any other value that intrigues you. If you decide to try that, and you let me know what dough ball weight you want to use and the thickness factor, I can calculate the size of the skin to make. 

Since I am the curious type of person, and I know I let my imagination run too far sometimes, I still would like to know how the De Lorenzo's changed from the old type of oven they used many years ago and now produce about the same types of pizzas.  The photo below is of Jimmie near the old oven. 
It was perhaps a blessing in disguise that the fire destroyed the old coal fired oven since it forced all of the De Lorenzo's to go with gas deck ovens. Had the coal fired oven survived the fire and was still operating at the time that Sam decided to open up a new place at Robbinsville, it is unlikely that the Robbinsville township would have permitted him to use a coal fired oven at the new place, and maybe nowhere else in town, and certainly not with loft apartments above the pizzeria. It would have been very risky to start a new place to try to replicate the De Lorenzo Hudson pizzas with untested gas fired deck ovens, especially going to a place seating about 90 people as compared with about 55 at Hudson, and with a reported three times the expenses. Sam might not have been able to get the loan, and he might still be slinging pizzas at Hudson, which would have perhaps had to stay open like it or not.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #681 on: September 21, 2013, 03:06:45 PM »
Peter,

I wanted to let you know that Trenton Bill had success in a De Lorenzo/Robbinville attempt today with his BS using your DB2 formulation at Reply 664 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg280016.html#msg280016  Bill invited his brother over to watch him bake the De Lorenzo attempt in his BS.  Bill's brother also really liked De Lorenzo/Hudson pizzas for many years.  Bill's brother could not believe how good the De Lorenzo's attempt turned out.   

This is the twist though.  Bill used the Lehmann dough calculation tool and put the pizza size in at 13”.  He used a TF of .075, 55% hydration, IDY at .40, 1.5% sea salt, and 2.0 % olive oil.  No bowl residue compensation.  Bill used a one day cold fermentation.  When Bill went to press out the dough and then stretch it into a pizza he might have stretched the skin to a little over 13”.  Bill said he didn't measure the skin before he put it on his 14” wooden peel.   Bill said he did weigh his dough after mixing, but said he didn't not write down the weight, but he does know that the dough weighed between 9.5 ounces to 9.7 ounces.  Bill mixed in his Kitchen Aid mixer by putting the yeast in with filtered water, used the Pillsbury flour and added all the other ingredients.  First mixed with flat beater for a just for a little with no rest period and then changed to the dough hook and mixed on speed 2 for 5 minutes.  Bill said the dough felt nice and his Kitchen Aid had no trouble mixing the dough.  Bill does have an older Kitchen Aid though. 

Bill baked right about 600 degrees F on the BS and blasted the pizza for about the last minute. 

If you want the weights of each ingredient Bill used from the Lehmann dough calculation tool sheet I can give them to you.

I was glad Trenton Bill had a successful De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza in his BS with your DB2 formulation.  Bill said he would weigh the dough out of the mixer the next time he makes another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza and he would also measure his skin the next time.  Bill said he had high hopes for his pizza when he cut it and it crunched the whole way across when cutting.

This is the photo Bill send me in an email of his brother holding out a slice of his De Lorenzo pizza.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #682 on: September 21, 2013, 03:20:17 PM »
Norma,
 
As was previously discussed, if we assume that your results from conducting the last two Sloan hydration bake tests were correct, and that my similar test results with the Sloan clone test dough were also correct, and we also assume that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough contains only a small amount of oil, then I cannot see how the Sloan dough would be the same as the Robbinsville dough, even if the thickness factors were the same. However, I don't see anything wrong with your taking a part of the large Sloan dough ball that you purchased from Sloan and making a skin with a thickness factor of 0.065 or any other value that intrigues you. If you decide to try that, and you let me know what dough ball weight you want to use and the thickness factor, I can calculate the size of the skin to make. 
It was perhaps a blessing in disguise that the fire destroyed the old coal fired oven since it forced all of the De Lorenzo's to go with gas deck ovens. Had the coal fired oven survived the fire and was still operating at the time that Sam decided to open up a new place at Robbinsville, it is unlikely that the Robbinsville township would have permitted him to use a coal fired oven at the new place, and maybe nowhere else in town, and certainly not with loft apartments above the pizzeria. It would have been very risky to start a new place to try to replicate the De Lorenzo Hudson pizzas with untested gas fired deck ovens, especially going to a place seating about 90 people as compared with about 55 at Hudson, and with a reported three times the expenses. Sam might not have been able to get the loan, and he might still be slinging pizzas at Hudson, which would have perhaps had to stay open like it or not.

Peter

Peter,

I understand if we assume that my results were correct from the last two Sloan hydration baked tests and that you had similar results with the Sloan clone test dough and we assume De Lorenzo/Robbinsivlle dough contains only a small amount of oil how the two doughs would be different.  I don't know what to do about trying the leftover part of the large Sloan dough ball now.  I guess I know I will not be able to bake a pizza like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville with the Sloan dough ball.

You are right that it was perhaps a blessing in disguise that the fire destroyed the old coal fired oven since it forced all of the De Lorenzo's to go with gas deck ovens.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #683 on: September 21, 2013, 05:05:07 PM »
I wanted to let you know that Trenton Bill had success in a De Lorenzo/Robbinville attempt today with his BS using your DB2 formulation at Reply 664 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg280016.html#msg280016  Bill invited his brother over to watch him bake the De Lorenzo attempt in his BS.  Bill's brother also really liked De Lorenzo/Hudson pizzas for many years.  Bill's brother could not believe how good the De Lorenzo's attempt turned out.   

This is the twist though.  Bill used the Lehmann dough calculation tool and put the pizza size in at 13”.  He used a TF of .075, 55% hydration, IDY at .40, 1.5% sea salt, and 2.0 % olive oil.  No bowl residue compensation.  Bill used a one day cold fermentation.  When Bill went to press out the dough and then stretch it into a pizza he might have stretched the skin to a little over 13”.  Bill said he didn't measure the skin before he put it on his 14” wooden peel.   Bill said he did weigh his dough after mixing, but said he didn't not write down the weight, but he does know that the dough weighed between 9.5 ounces to 9.7 ounces.  Bill mixed in his Kitchen Aid mixer by putting the yeast in with filtered water, used the Pillsbury flour and added all the other ingredients.  First mixed with flat beater for a just for a little with no rest period and then changed to the dough hook and mixed on speed 2 for 5 minutes.  Bill said the dough felt nice and his Kitchen Aid had no trouble mixing the dough.  Bill does have an older Kitchen Aid though. 

Bill baked right about 600 degrees F on the BS and blasted the pizza for about the last minute. 
Norma,

Thank you for the report and please thank Trenton Bill for the feedback. This is good news. Maybe the BlackStone unit results is telling us something about the oven temperature needed to make a credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza. I hope that Trenton Bill enjoyed the pizza as much as his brother. I would be even happier if he felt that the pizza was as worthy as a real De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.

From the numbers you provided, I believe that what Trenton Bill ended up with was as follows:

Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Total (158.9%):
177.61 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
97.69 g  |  3.45 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
3.55 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
282.22 g | 9.95 oz | 0.62 lbs | TF = 0.075
Note: Dough is for a 13" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Because Trenton Bill did not use a bowl residue compensation, and because the final dough ball weight was 9.5-9.7 ounces, the actual thickness factor was 0.0716-0.0731. That is slightly larger than the 0.065 figure I have been using for my tests, but I don't think that one could detect the difference when handling the skin. If Trenton Bill had used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, the dough ball weight would have been 10.1 ounces. My practice has been to enter 10 ounces into the dough calculating tool along with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That usually takes me a few grams over the 10 ounces (283.5 grams) so I trim the excess to get to 10 ounces.

I welcome any future results from Trenton Bill.

FYI, I have tweaked Reply 664 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg280016.html#msg280016 to provide additional information that I thought might tell a more complete story. I also have a couple other test dough balls in the works that I hope to work with tomorrow. As a result, I might wait until tomorrow to post on those results and propose a modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone formulation or two based on my collective test results to date.

Peter


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #684 on: September 21, 2013, 05:47:30 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the report and please thank Trenton Bill for the feedback. This is good news. Maybe the BlackStone unit results is telling us something about the oven temperature needed to make a credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza. I hope that Trenton Bill enjoyed the pizza as much as his brother. I would be even happier if he felt that the pizza was as worthy as a real De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.

From the numbers you provided, I believe that what Trenton Bill ended up with was as follows:

Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Total (158.9%):
177.61 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
97.69 g  |  3.45 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
3.55 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
282.22 g | 9.95 oz | 0.62 lbs | TF = 0.075
Note: Dough is for a 13" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Because Trenton Bill did not use a bowl residue compensation, and because the final dough ball weight was 9.5-9.7 ounces, the actual thickness factor was 0.0716-0.0731. That is slightly larger than the 0.065 figure I have been using for my tests, but I don't think that one could detect the difference when handling the skin. If Trenton Bill had used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, the dough ball weight would have been 10.1 ounces. My practice has been to enter 10 ounces into the dough calculating tool along with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. That usually takes me a few grams over the 10 ounces (283.5 grams) so I trim the excess to get to 10 ounces.

I welcome any future results from Trenton Bill.

FYI, I have tweaked Reply 664 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg280016.html#msg280016 to provide additional information that I thought might tell a more complete story. I also have a couple other test dough balls in the works that I hope to work with tomorrow. As a result, I might wait until tomorrow to post on those results and propose a modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone formulation or two based on my collective test results to date.

Peter

Peter,

Trenton Bill does read here on the forum and also looks at this thread, so I am sure he will see you said thank you for the report.  Trenton Bill also makes other type of pizzas from formulations here on the forum.  Trenton Bill also wanted to thank you for doing the tests to determine what formulations to try.  Trenton Bill is like me and is not good with numbers, but he does experiment.  Thanks for doing the calculations for the TF he used base on the information I gave you.   If you want to hear the exact words Bill told me he was elated that your formulation made a pizza just like he remembered at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson.   8)

Those are the exact numbers Bill gave me that he used from the Lehmann Calculation Tool.

I have no idea if the Blackstone unit results are telling us if you really need that high of an oven temperature to make a credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  So far I have not played around with mine enough to make the right decisions on what temperatures to bake certain types of  pizza at. 

Bill will see what you suggest in the dough ball weight and using a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.

I know Bill is going to invite friends over for De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson pizzas so I should be able to give you future results from him. 

I am not sure what you tweaked in Reply 664, but will watch what happens with your couple of other test dough balls that you hope to work with tomorrow.  That is okay if you wait until tomorrow to propose a modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone formulation or two based on your collective test results.   

I had wanted to try another attempt in my BS tomorrow, but I can wait until next week.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #685 on: September 21, 2013, 09:19:46 PM »
Here was my attempt tonight. 

14" came in at 9.25 oz
Oven Blodgett 1048
Temp 550 (Thermometer setting plus one inside unit) above Deck
Deck 575 tested with IR gun

Flour - All Trumps 50143 High Gluten @ 14%.  (I had this and KAAP so decided to try high gluten )
Yeast .375
Salt Kosher 1.75%
Oil (Soy) 2%
Hydration 58%
2 day rise (slightly high on yeast)

Dough was easy to open, but i was not able to open as fast as the guys at Robbinsville.  The dough was slightly sticky but easy to work with once light flour was applied.  I was not able to spin the dough on the table and it was difficult to get it to spin.  Only when using Semolina was I able to make it happen, but it was very slow.  I put the ball on a stainless steel table.  Maybe marble or another surface would be better.  This was frustrating, but doable.

Pizza cooked for 5 minutes. 
Added cheese
Deck Switch for another 3 minutes
Total 8 minutes

Texture was pretty interesting.  There is a snap at the bottom like a cracker but not as hard.  Upper crust is soft. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:22:53 PM by PizzaGarage »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #686 on: September 21, 2013, 09:26:17 PM »
This one was just cheese.
The pizza was not cooked on the screen.  Only cooled off on the screen


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #687 on: September 21, 2013, 09:40:58 PM »
Brad,

I see you got great bottom crust browing.  Way to go!  I find your comment interesting that the upper crust was soft with such a long bake.  Did you like the texture of your attempts since you posted that the texture was interesting? 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #688 on: September 21, 2013, 09:42:35 PM »
Peter,

Trenton Bill called me this evening and asked me if I would write a post for him.  Trenton said he has tried for 3 years to duplicate a De Lornenzo's pizza with no success.  He said you have parted the waves to a successful clone of a De Lorenzo's pizza for him.  Bill also said many, many thanks.

Regards,

Trenton Bill (crystalbill)

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #689 on: September 22, 2013, 07:57:20 AM »
Peter,

Trenton Bill called me this evening and asked me if I would write a post for him.  Trenton said he has tried for 3 years to duplicate a De Lornenzo's pizza with no success.  He said you have parted the waves to a successful clone of a De Lorenzo's pizza for him.  Bill also said many, many thanks.

Regards,

Trenton Bill (crystalbill)
Trenton Bill,

Thank you very much for the kind words. They are much appreciated.

In due course, you might try out some of the other De Lorenzo clone dough formulations with a higher hydration value. In my own tests, where my goal as been to try to come up with dough balls that can be opened and formed into skins as fast as those of the workers at Robbinsville, I have found that the higher hydration doughs have tended to be better in that respect. In fact, the best test dough to date in that regard has been using all-purpose flour at a hydration value of around 59% (with a bit of oil). Maybe I have been on a fool's errand and the problem is with the mixer I have but eventually that might get sorted out.

I suspect that there is perhaps a wide range of combinations of dough ball weight, hydration, oil and thickness factor that will produce good results, but still within a fairly narrow band collectively. For example, your dough ball weight was a few tenths of an ounce shy of 10 ounces. I would think that pizza operators would choose to use nice round numbers for their dough ball weights but, as you know, the two dough balls that Norma purchased from Sloan had oddball weights (11.2 ounces for the 14" size and 16.7 ounces for the 16" size) and with different corresponding thickness factors. I have read that Rick De Lorenzo makes the dough at Sloan and maybe after almost a lifetime of doing so he can come pretty close to the desired dough ball weights by eye and feel and without needing a scale. It has been reported that De Lorenzo Robbinsville may be using a dough rounder/divider but even then there can be variations in dough ball weights, albeit small. Neither Norma nor I saw any signs of scales used at the former De Lorenzo/Hudson location. With everything done by eye, touch and feel, and with normal oven variations under different load conditions, maybe that helps explain the variations between one pizza and another, and why some customers get crispier pizzas than others.

I wish you continued good success.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 07:59:02 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #690 on: September 22, 2013, 09:13:30 AM »
After looking at Brad's results, and after calculating that he used a thickness factor of 0.06 [9.25/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.06], I couldn't help but harken back to some of my own earlier efforts over the original Trenton thread where I used the same thickness factor value.

One dough formulation that immediately caught my attention at the Trenton thread was for the De Lorenzo clone pizza shown starting at Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44522.html#msg44522. The actual dough formulation itself is given at Reply 86 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44598.html#msg44598. Setting aside for the moment the thickness factor, and that I used the "old dough" method with a natural leavening system, which one member at the time insisted De Lorenzo/Hudson was using, and also the fact that the pizza was only 12" (at the time we did not know what size pizzas De Lorenzo/Hudson was making), the dough formulation itself looks to be more of a clone of the De Lorenzo/Hamilton/Sloan dough than a De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville clone. In fact, when I calculated the water content of the dough, it was 39%. That is about the same value that Norma came up with in her final hydration bake tests using the actual Sloan dough. That number would be the same even if one were to use a normal amount of commercial yeast in lieu of the natural leavening system I used and even if one were to increase the thickness factor from 0.06 to the actual thickness factor of the Sloan dough.

Later, I made the De Lorenzo clone pizza as shown at Reply 101 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44805.html#msg44805. That pizza was also based on using a natural leavening system, but its calculated hydration value (taking into account the water content of the old dough) was about 59%, and its thickness factor was also 0.06. That latter combination is the same as what Brad used, but I also used a fair amount of oil. It will be noted that I found that dough to be quite extensible. Also, when I calculated the water content of that dough this morning, it was 42.3%. I believe that value to be more in line with what we have been testing for the Robbinsville clone dough.

Not to belabor the point, but the same pattern played out with the De Lorenzo clone dough that I described at Reply 110 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44971.html#msg44971, but for a 13" pizza.

Believe it or not, I eventually got to make a De Lorenzo clone dough using commercial yeast. That dough and the pizza made from it is shown and described at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060. As noted in that reply, I had intented to make a 13" pizza (with a thickness factor of 0.06) but I found the dough to handle so well that I went to 14" (with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.05). That dough was almost two days old (using cold fermentation).

My final effort at the Trenton thread before the data ran dry and brought our efforts to a halt is shown and described at Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125. The dough formulation set forth in Reply 122 also used commercial yeast. And, as with all of the other De Lorenzo clone doughs, I used some sugar in the dough. As I mentioned recently, in retrospect, the sugar, along with some oven issues, may have been a factor in why I did not achieve uniform crispiness acrosss the entire diameters of the pizzas I made.

My trip down memory lane this morning, along with what we now know, which is more complete and more trustworthy than what we knew back in the Trenton thread (with the exception of a few posts that were entered later toward the end of that thread), leads me to believe that at least in my home setting a relatively high hydration value, including the wetting effect of a small amount of oil, may be the best approach to take. For now, I would perhaps stick with the thickness factor of 0.065 but be prepared to change it if results dictate doing so.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #691 on: September 22, 2013, 09:40:40 AM »
My curiosity got the best of me last evening and I decided to use the DB2 formulation like Trenton Bill used, but went by Peter's methods of putting the dough ball weight of 10.1 ounces in the Lehmann dough calculation tool and used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5 so my dough ball would weight 10 ounces.  I also just used regular table salt.  I did have to cut off some of the dough to be able to have exactly 10 ounces.  I used Bill's mixing methods and times and I had no trouble mixing the dough with my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I didn't try to smooth out the dough and just balled.  Semolina was placed in the bottom of the plastic container and the dough ball was not oiled or floured.  I should have used more IDY in the formulation, but I just upped it to 0.89 grams.  I let the dough ball sit out at room temperature for a little over an hour.  I think I can let the dough ball warm up more at room temperature if it doesn't look fermented enough when I try to make the pizza in the BS. 

Photos are of formulation for DB2, dough right out of mixer, dough on scale, balled dough ball in semolina, and dough ball outside a little while ago.  The shadows on the dough ball (top and bottom) make it look like it isn't smooth, but it is.

Since it gets darker earlier in our area now I probably will try to make the pizza about 5:30 PM.

Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #692 on: September 22, 2013, 05:53:27 PM »
Peter,

I also want to thank you very much, because the DB2 formulation you set forth did make a great De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone in the Blackstone oven.  The crust was exactly like I recall it.  It was crispy and crunchy the whole way across.  The only thing the BS didn't do is give a lot of char and I sure did not miss that. 

I forgot to post in my last post, but I only used vegetable oil in the DB2 formulation. 

I used Red Pack crushed tomatoes in thick puree instead of the whole plum tomatoes and Great Value Crushed Tomatoes in puree.  I also changed the cheese to Sargento off the block Shredded Natural Low Moisture Part-Skim Mozzarella.  The tomatoes and the cheese used make the De Lorenzo clone pizza taste very good.  I did add a little sugar and salt to the tomato blend.

I could press out the dough and stretch it over my kitchen table in about the same amount of time that the assemblers do at De Lorenzo's.  I didn't time it, but it sure was fast and easy.  The flour photo on the kitchen floor is included.  There was no tearing of the dough and it acted perfect to me. 

The De Lorenzo's clone pizza crackled the whole way across when cutting it.  My bottom crust wasn't as brown as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, but it was every bit as good or better in my opinion.  The slices stood straight out after being cut.  Each bite gave a different taste and eat bite was crispy and crunchy.  Even after the slices cooled down there was a crispness on the bottom crust and I only had the pizza on my larger pizza peel.  I did not need a screen to keep the bottom crust crispy.  It can be seen that the cooled slices did droop some though, but that was the same way they were at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I ate all the slices except two.  :-D The dogs were begging for me to give them some small pieces.  I did give them some and and they also loved this pizza.

I did not have to blast the oven at the end of the bake.  It just baked perfect itself.

Everything about this De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone was perfect for me.   ;D

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #693 on: September 22, 2013, 05:57:31 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #694 on: September 22, 2013, 06:00:49 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #695 on: September 22, 2013, 06:06:18 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #696 on: September 22, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #697 on: September 22, 2013, 06:09:56 PM »
Both dogs (the boys) are almost 16 years old and they both still love pizzas, but I think they loved this one the best.  :P

Norma
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 06:11:43 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #698 on: September 22, 2013, 06:34:46 PM »
Norma,

That is terrific. I am glad to get such good news.

However, while you were posting, I was composing a post to set forth a new De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for the members to try. That formulation is based on my most recent test dough that was the best of the several De Lorenzo clone test doughs that I have made to date using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). I will be posting the details in the next post following this one.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #699 on: September 22, 2013, 06:36:48 PM »
Notwithstanding the good news that Norma has given us, I have set forth below the next De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for the members to consider. That formulation is based on my most recent De Lorenzo clone test dough that was, by far, the best of the De Lorenzo clone test doughs that I have made to date using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). The latest test dough was for a one-day cold fermentation. I will also set forth below how I made the test dough using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer so that others might use the same method if they so desire.

As before, the test dough was 10 ounces. The corresponding thickness factor (for a 14" skin) was about 0.065 (it's actually 0.0.06496). In terms of performance, the test dough was very similar to one of my earliest test doughs where I used the General Mills unbleached unbromated all-purpose flour with a hydration of 59%, 1% oil (blend), and a thickness factor of about 0.065. That dough was also a one day cold fermented dough. The latest test dough essentially mimics that earlier test dough but with a different flour (the KABF).

As previously noted, my goal was to try to make a dough that would handle like those shown in the video that Norma took and posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403. And, in that regard, I believe that I succeeded. The clone test dough opened with ease and I was able to stretch it to its final size (14") without any difficulty. In fact, I could have opened the skin to 16" or more had I chosen to do so. I wasn't quite sure what to expect because the dough had just about tripled in volume after one day of cold fermentation. I simply flattened the dough ball with the palm of my hand, and let it temper for about a half-hour at room temperature (the brief temper period was a concession to a warm Texas kitchen). There were no bubbles in the dough at any time during its fermentation, either in the storage container (I used a lidded glass Pyrex bowl) or on the bench. As with my prior tests, I put some cornmeal at the bottom of the storage container. There was no oil in either the storage container or the test dough ball itself.

While I did not time the total time that it took me to open the test dough ball and stretch it, it was not much more than that shown in the video at Reply 326. The dough did not try to run away from me. It stretched and contracted as shown in the video. Yet, despite its nice balance between elasticity and extensibility, it was not a skin that could be tossed. After the skin was formed, I put it on a floured 14" wooden peel, where it stayed for over an hour. I did this to see if the skin would stick to the peel. It did not.

With the above as background, here is the proposed De Lorenzo clone dough formulation:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #4
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.30%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (0.40%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.60%):
Total (160.8%):
178.95 g  |  6.31 oz | 0.39 lbs
102 g  |  3.6 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = about 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation method I used, this was the sequence:

1. Place the water, salt and oil blend in the mixer bowl and stir to dissolve the salt.
2. Combine the flour and IDY in a container (I use a plastic bowl).
3. With the flat beater attached, and with the mixer at speed 1, gradually add the flour mixture (I gradually shake the flour mix into the mixer bowl in a somewhat vibrating fashion so it is essentially sprinkled into the mixer bowl).
4. When the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl, stop the mixer and replace the flat beater attachment with the C-hook. If the dough does not quite clear the sides of the mixer bowl with the flat beater attached, stop the mixer and combine the ingredients by hand to form a dough ball. It need not be smooth at this point but should hold together; it might even be a bit sticky.
5. With the C-hook attached, knead the dough at speeds 2-3 for about 7 minutes.
6. Stop the mixer and do a final knead of the dough ball by hand to make it round (this is where I weigh the dough ball and trim it to 10 ounces, if needed, measure the finished dough temperature, put the dough ball into its storage container, put the two poppy seeds in place, spaced 1" apart, and attach the lid).
7. Put the dough within its container, and with the lid attached, into the refrigerator. Note the time the dough is placed into the refrigerator.

It will be noted that there is no rest period for the dough at any time, either in the mixer bowl or outside of the mixer bowl at room temperature before refrigerating the dough.

Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Just because I was able to make a dough that behaves like a Robbinsville dough does not mean that it will perform the same or as well as a Robbinsville dough in the oven.

Peter