Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 63577 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #720 on: September 28, 2013, 11:32:32 AM »
I wonder if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville does drizzle olive oil first on the skin.  I did not see that when I was at De Lorenzo/Robbinville, but then I might have missed something. 
Norma,

From what I have seen and read, I do not recall seeing the oil going onto the skin first. I have seen the oil put down mid-bake and at the end but not at the beginning.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #721 on: September 28, 2013, 07:26:58 PM »
Trenton Bill called me today and said he made his best De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza to this date.  Bill emailed these two photos.  Bill told me he used 57% hydration, the right flour, 1.5% salt, .40% IDY and no oil.  He dressed his De Lorenzo/Robbinsville attempt with Red Pack tomatoes blended with 6-in 1's and used the LMPS Sorrento mozzarella.  Bill did add a little olive oil on the skin and spread it around with his hand before applying the mozzarella.  Bill baked in his Blackstone unit.  Bill also told me a big bubble appeared when his dough ball warmed up.  He was doing a one day cold ferment.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #722 on: September 28, 2013, 08:55:09 PM »
Norma,

Trenton Bill did an excellent job with his De Lorenzo clone pizza using his BlackStone oven. The pizza looks great. I believe he used the right flour, the right combination of tomatoes, and the right cheese, and all properly applied and at the right times. I especially liked his use of a decent amount of the tomato blend. From some of the Robbinsville photos I looked at, it seemed that the tomatoes were too sparsely applied, whereas photos I have seen elsewhere, such as Google Image, showed considerably more tomatoes.

If Trenton Bill used the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with his version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, along with a bowl residue compensation, I believe that this is what he might have used:

Trenton Bill's De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2 for the BlackStone Oven
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Total (158.9%):
181.09 g  |  6.39 oz | 0.4 lbs
103.22 g  |  3.64 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

If what Trenton Bill actually used was not what is shown above, if you can get the specifics of his formulation I think I should be able to come up with his specific version.

I believe the bubble was due to the amount of IDY that Trenton Bill used, epecially for a one-day cold fermentation. When I have used 0.40% or even 0.30% IDY here in Texas, I got a tripling of the volume of the dough after one day.

I'd also be curious to know if Trenton Bill had any problems opening up the dough ball, and also what technique he used to do so.

At some time, Trenton Bill might want to use about 1% oil to see if that makes the formulation even better. 1% oil (blend) is less than a half-teaspoon so it shouldn't have a material impact on the dough and its performance.

Peter

EDIT (9/29/13): For a corrected version of the above formulation, see Reply 724 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281275.html#msg281275
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 05:14:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #723 on: September 28, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »
Norma,

Trenton Bill did an excellent job with his De Lorenzo clone pizza using his BlackStone oven. The pizza looks great. I believe he used the right flour, the right combination of tomatoes, and the right cheese, and all properly applied and at the right times. I especially liked his use of a decent amount of the tomato blend. From some of the Robbinsville photos I looked at, it seemed that the tomatoes were too sparsely applied, whereas photos I have seen elsewhere, such as Google Image, showed considerably more tomatoes.

If Trenton Bill used the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with his version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, along with a bowl residue compensation, I believe that this is what he might have used:

Trenton Bill's De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2 for the BlackStone Oven
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Total (158.9%):
181.09 g  |  6.39 oz | 0.4 lbs
103.22 g  |  3.64 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

If what Trenton Bill actually used was not what is shown above, if you can get the specifics of his formulation I think I should be able to come up with his specific version.

I believe the bubble was due to the amount of IDY that Trenton Bill used, epecially for a one-day cold fermentation. When I have used 0.40% or even 0.30% IDY here in Texas, I got a tripling of the volume of the dough after one day.

I'd also be curious to know if Trenton Bill had any problems opening up the dough ball, and also what technique he used to do so.

At some time, Trenton Bill might want to use about 1% oil to see if that makes the formulation even better. 1% oil (blend) is less than a half-teaspoon so it shouldn't have a material impact on the dough and its performance.

Peter

Peter,

I called Trenton Bill and this is what he told me.  He used the Lehmann dough calculation tool and entered a TF of .064  He did not use a bowl residue compensation, but he did weight the finished dough.  The dough weighed 9.7 ounces. 

This is what his print out sheet said.

Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour 175.77 grams
Water 110.19 grams
IDY .7 gram
Regular Salt 2.64 grams

Bill said he had no problems pressing on the dough and first he flattened it out and then he placed his two hands on the top of the dough and moved with his right hand clockwise and and turned the dough counterclockwise using his right hand more to keep moving the dough until he had it around 360 degrees.  He then picked up the dough and stretched it by hand until it was 14” in diameter.  He said the dough handled beautiful. 

This was his mixing method.  Bill has a Kitchen Aid Ultra Power that is about 10 years old and is 300 watts.  He uses a glass bowl.  First Bill sifted the flour. He then added the salt to the flour and stirred with a fork.  Then he put the IDY into the water and and placed the flour with salt on top.  Mixed on speed 2 until the flour was off of the bottom, then mixed on speed 2 for 5 more minutes with the dough hook.  Balled dough and put semolina on bottom of plastic container.  Bill baked in his Blackstone unit at about 600 degrees F.

I told Bill what you said about the yeast amount and the oil.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #724 on: September 28, 2013, 11:13:15 PM »
Norma,

I believe there was an error for the amount of water, since 110.19 grams of water would translate into a hydration value of 62.69%. Entering the baker's percents and thickness factor (0.064) that Trenton Bill mentioned into the Lehmann dough calculating tool, this is what emerges:

Trenton Bill's De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2 for the BlackStone Oven (Corrected)
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (158.9%):
175.77 g  |  6.2 oz | 0.39 lbs
100.19 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.7 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
279.31 g | 9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs | TF = 0.064
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Because Trenton Bill did not use a bowl residue compensation, his final dough ball weight was 9.70 ounces instead of 9.85 ounces as shown in the Lehmann dough calculating tool. For that amount of dough, the corresponding thickness factor is 9.70/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0630. So, his crust was a bit thinner as a result, by about 1.6%. That would be too small to detect.

Peter


Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #725 on: September 29, 2013, 02:18:36 AM »
I didn't know about the “Pie Eyed” 30-minute DVD from Vincent Amico who is not related to the other Amico's.  I would like to watch that video is someone can give me a link to where to purchase the DVD.

Is there anything I missed in the article?

Norma


Norma,

I did a little searching on the "Pie Eyed" video that Vincent will be sending to you and Trenton Bill.  In case other members are wondering, the DVD can be purchased for $20 here:

http://www.artifactsgallerytrenton.com/pie-eyed-dvd.php

Apparently at the end of the documentary a recipe is given for the home baker to make their own "Trenton Tomato Pie."  According to this source: http://www.njch.org/keyingredients/recipes/   the recipe in the DVD is as follows:

Pie-Eyed ~ The Recipe
(taken from Pie-Eyed, a documentary about Tomato Pie in Trenton)

Dough Ingredients:

(You can either make your own dough using the following recipe or you can purchase it at your local bakery or supermarket.)

.25 oz. pkt. active dry yeast
1/4 tsp. granulated sugar
3/4 cup 110° water
1ľ cups all-purpose flour
˝ tsp. salt

Dissolve yeast and sugar in water; allow to rest for 8 minutes. In a separate bowl, combine flour and salt and pour yeast mixture over flour mixture and mix well with a heavy spoon. Turn dough onto a floured surface and knead for 2 minutes. Working from the edges to the center, press dough into a 12” circle. Place dough on a lightly greased pizza pan and stretch dough to edges. Spread sauce over crust and top with cheese and desired toppings. Bake in 500° oven for 8-12 minutes, or until edges are golden.

Sauce Ingredients:

1 can of plum tomatoes (preferably packed in tomato juice rather than a thick puree)
2 medium minced garlic cloves
3 or 4 leaves of fresh minced basil (or a shake or 2 dried minced basil – to taste)
1 tablespoon of olive oil
Salt and pepper to taste

Empty contents of tomato can into mixing bowl and mash the whole tomatoes into smaller pieces so that the mixture is pulpy. Add garlic, olive oil, salt and pepper and mix. The sauce can be used immediately, but has a more refined flavor if covered and left in the refrigerator for about an hour. This sauce can be stored in the refrigerator for about 1 hour if properly covered.

Preparation and Assembly of your Trenton Style Tomato Pie

Ingredients:

Dough mixture
Sauce mixture
Equal parts of grated Romano and Parmesan cheese to taste
Grated or sliced mozzarella cheese
Preheat your oven to 500°

Start with a ball of dough approximately 3 to 4 inches in diameter or about the size of a medium fist. Roll it out to the size of the pan you are using. (A thin, 16” perforated aluminum pan is recommended.) Roll the dough out uniformly to a thickness of approximately 1/16” taking care not to make holes in the dough. (Sometimes holes are inevitable. If a hole does appear, just pinch the dough around it and close it up.)

Gently place the dough in the pan. You can either trim off the sides of the dough overlapping, or just roll it back until it fits in the pan. For a special treat, take some grated cheese and roll it in the overlapping dough. Brush on a very thin layer of olive oil. (Infused oil is great. I.e. basil, truffle, or garlic oil.)

Spread the grated cheese blend around the sides of the dough and very lightly toward the middle. (The cheese and the sauce will gravitate toward the center during cooking. This is the technique that will keep the tomato pie slice from “dropping” like pizza does.)

Sparingly, ladle the sauce mixture around the pie. (Again, not too much in the center of the pie. It’ll spread out while it’s cooking.) Now sprinkle (or place) the mozzarella cheese lightly over the top. Place pie in preheated oven for approximately 5 minutes.

Using a spatula, gently lift the edge of the pie and check if the bottom is browning. The pie should be a little crispy on the bottom. Don’t panic if the edges become a little brown. That’s good. When the pie is done, slide the pie out of the tray onto a dish or pan. Let it sit for about a minute.

Cut the pie across, then into small triangles.

Serve and enjoy!

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #726 on: September 29, 2013, 07:16:35 AM »
Norma,

I believe there was an error for the amount of water, since 110.19 grams of water would translate into a hydration value of 62.69%. Entering the baker's percents and thickness factor (0.064) that Trenton Bill mentioned into the Lehmann dough calculating tool, this is what emerges:

Trenton Bill's De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2 for the BlackStone Oven (Corrected)
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (158.9%):
175.77 g  |  6.2 oz | 0.39 lbs
100.19 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.7 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
279.31 g | 9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs | TF = 0.064
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Because Trenton Bill did not use a bowl residue compensation, his final dough ball weight was 9.70 ounces instead of 9.85 ounces as shown in the Lehmann dough calculating tool. For that amount of dough, the corresponding thickness factor is 9.70/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0630. So, his crust was a bit thinner as a result, by about 1.6%. That would be too small to detect.

Peter

Peter,

I will call Bill again to see about the water amount, but that is the number he gave me.  I went over the numbers a few times with Bill to make sure I posted those numbers correctly.

It is tough being a secretary for someone else.   :-D  I have enough problems with my own numbers.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #727 on: September 29, 2013, 07:37:45 AM »
Norma,

I did a little searching on the "Pie Eyed" video that Vincent will be sending to you and Trenton Bill.  In case other members are wondering, the DVD can be purchased for $20 here:

http://www.artifactsgallerytrenton.com/pie-eyed-dvd.php

Apparently at the end of the documentary a recipe is given for the home baker to make their own "Trenton Tomato Pie."  According to this source: http://www.njch.org/keyingredients/recipes/   the recipe in the DVD is as follows:

Pie-Eyed ~ The Recipe
(taken from Pie-Eyed, a documentary about Tomato Pie in Trenton)

Dough Ingredients:

(You can either make your own dough using the following recipe or you can purchase it at your local bakery or supermarket.)

.25 oz. pkt. active dry yeast
1/4 tsp. granulated sugar
3/4 cup 110° water
1ľ cups all-purpose flour
˝ tsp. salt

Dissolve yeast and sugar in water; allow to rest for 8 minutes. In a separate bowl, combine flour and salt and pour yeast mixture over flour mixture and mix well with a heavy spoon. Turn dough onto a floured surface and knead for 2 minutes. Working from the edges to the center, press dough into a 12” circle. Place dough on a lightly greased pizza pan and stretch dough to edges. Spread sauce over crust and top with cheese and desired toppings. Bake in 500° oven for 8-12 minutes, or until edges are golden.

Sauce Ingredients:

1 can of plum tomatoes (preferably packed in tomato juice rather than a thick puree)
2 medium minced garlic cloves
3 or 4 leaves of fresh minced basil (or a shake or 2 dried minced basil – to taste)
1 tablespoon of olive oil
Salt and pepper to taste

Empty contents of tomato can into mixing bowl and mash the whole tomatoes into smaller pieces so that the mixture is pulpy. Add garlic, olive oil, salt and pepper and mix. The sauce can be used immediately, but has a more refined flavor if covered and left in the refrigerator for about an hour. This sauce can be stored in the refrigerator for about 1 hour if properly covered.

Preparation and Assembly of your Trenton Style Tomato Pie

Ingredients:

Dough mixture
Sauce mixture
Equal parts of grated Romano and Parmesan cheese to taste
Grated or sliced mozzarella cheese
Preheat your oven to 500°

Start with a ball of dough approximately 3 to 4 inches in diameter or about the size of a medium fist. Roll it out to the size of the pan you are using. (A thin, 16” perforated aluminum pan is recommended.) Roll the dough out uniformly to a thickness of approximately 1/16” taking care not to make holes in the dough. (Sometimes holes are inevitable. If a hole does appear, just pinch the dough around it and close it up.)

Gently place the dough in the pan. You can either trim off the sides of the dough overlapping, or just roll it back until it fits in the pan. For a special treat, take some grated cheese and roll it in the overlapping dough. Brush on a very thin layer of olive oil. (Infused oil is great. I.e. basil, truffle, or garlic oil.)

Spread the grated cheese blend around the sides of the dough and very lightly toward the middle. (The cheese and the sauce will gravitate toward the center during cooking. This is the technique that will keep the tomato pie slice from “dropping” like pizza does.)

Sparingly, ladle the sauce mixture around the pie. (Again, not too much in the center of the pie. It’ll spread out while it’s cooking.) Now sprinkle (or place) the mozzarella cheese lightly over the top. Place pie in preheated oven for approximately 5 minutes.

Using a spatula, gently lift the edge of the pie and check if the bottom is browning. The pie should be a little crispy on the bottom. Don’t panic if the edges become a little brown. That’s good. When the pie is done, slide the pie out of the tray onto a dish or pan. Let it sit for about a minute.

Cut the pie across, then into small triangles.

Serve and enjoy!



Tim,

Thank you for taking the time to search and posting the direct link if any members are interested in purchasing the “Pie Eyed” DVD about Trenton Tomato Pies, by Vince Amico and Frank Sasso.  After I posted yesterday I did some more searching and saw Papa website has the “Pie Eyed” DVD posted on their website http://www.papastomatopies.com/links.php I also see Vincent Amico's Ice Cream website is listed on Papa's website too.

Thanks also for the link to the recipe for the Trenton Tomato Pie that is supposed to be on the video.  Vincent told me yesterday morning that there is his recipe at the end of the DVD video.  I sure don't know how that recipe would turn out. 

Vincent told me the video is going to be 15.00 and said he has to get them out of storage, because the DVD was made awhile ago.  I am just curious about what is really in the DVD video.

Vincent did tell me Papa's Pizza was his favorite Trenton tomato pie.  I told him about Trenton Bill's and my experience in getting a pizza that was burnt on the bottom crust at Papa's.  Vincent told me to try Papa's Trenton tomato pies again because that isn't the norm.  I did tell Vincent that other customers bottom crusts did not look burnt.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #728 on: September 29, 2013, 04:56:15 PM »
Peter,

I called Trenton Bill and this is what he told me.  He used the Lehmann dough calculation tool and entered a TF of .064  He did not use a bowl residue compensation, but he did weight the finished dough.  The dough weighed 9.7 ounces. 

This is what his print out sheet said.

Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour 175.77 grams
Water 110.19 grams
IDY .7 gram
Regular Salt 2.64 grams

Bill said he had no problems pressing on the dough and first he flattened it out and then he placed his two hands on the top of the dough and moved with his right hand clockwise and and turned the dough counterclockwise using his right hand more to keep moving the dough until he had it around 360 degrees.  He then picked up the dough and stretched it by hand until it was 14” in diameter.  He said the dough handled beautiful. 

This was his mixing method.  Bill has a Kitchen Aid Ultra Power that is about 10 years old and is 300 watts.  He uses a glass bowl.  First Bill sifted the flour. He then added the salt to the flour and stirred with a fork.  Then he put the IDY into the water and and placed the flour with salt on top.  Mixed on speed 2 until the flour was off of the bottom, then mixed on speed 2 for 5 more minutes with the dough hook.  Balled dough and put semolina on bottom of plastic container.  Bill baked in his Blackstone unit at about 600 degrees F.

I told Bill what you said about the yeast amount and the oil.

Norma

Peter,

I called Trenton Bill a little while ago.  I did make a mistake when typing the amount of water in this post.  I had the correct number 100.19 grams of water on my paper, but typed 110.19 grams when I posted.  Your next reply after mine is correct.

Sorry for the confusion.

Norma

Edited
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 05:07:02 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #729 on: September 29, 2013, 08:12:14 PM »
Norma,

I don't know if you saw this article, at http://www.trentonian.com/article/20051024/TMP02/310249997, but you might take note of what Sam Amici said about their dough recipe:

DeLorenzo’s manager Sam Amico said there’s no secret recipe or any special thing they do to make their pizza special.

"We use very good ingredients. We use whole tomatoes, my father and I make the dough fresh from scratch every day," Amico said.

"We have good quality control. We care a great deal about our product."

The recipe was developed by Amico’s grandfather who passed it down through the generations, Amico said, and they use it to this day.


If the above is true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 09:30:35 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #730 on: September 29, 2013, 09:22:26 PM »
Norma,

I don't know if you saw this article, at http://www.trentonian.com/article/20051024/TMP02/310249997, but you might take note of what Sam Amico said about their dough recipe:

DeLorenzo’s manager Sam Amico said there’s no secret recipe or any special thing they do to make their pizza special.

"We use very good ingredients. We use whole tomatoes, my father and I make the dough fresh from scratch every day," Amico said.

"We have good quality control. We care a great deal about our product."

The recipe was developed by Amico’s grandfather who passed it down through the generations, Amico said, and they use it to this day.


If the above is true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.

Peter


Peter,

When I clicked on the link you referenced a few times all it says is the article requested cannot be found!  Please refresh your browser or go back.  It does lead to The Trentonian though.  Maybe my computer is not working right. 

I think I read those same words from Sam Amico though, but am not sure were I read them. 

I also think if what Sam Amico said was true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.  What Sam Amico also said makes me even wonder if the dough might be made the same day and I wondered about that before.  Especially if Sam Amico follows his grandfathers recipe to the T.  I sure would not see the old De Lorenzo's cold fermenting dough years ago.  Sam Amico said in that recent article that olive oil is put on the dough first though, so maybe Sam Amico does not always state what is right.

I did send a message on facebook to De Lorenzo's tomatoes pies about the pizza Trenton Bill and I ate and also asked if the dough is made the same day.  I heard nothing back so far.

I just purchased some Sorrento part-skim mozzarella this evening at Weis Market near Lancaster when I had to go to Home Depot to pick up some wood for home repairs.  At least I know now that Weis Market does stock the Sorrento part-skim mozzarella, but it is not the kind already shredded.  I never was in that Weis supermarket before.  At the price of 5.99 a lb. though if the De Lorenzo's clone pizzas soon does not start working out better in my deck oven I am going to stick to my Blackstone unit to try out De Lorenzo's clone pizzas.  I am trying your De Lorenzo clone dough #5 formulation out this Tuesday though.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 09:24:56 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #731 on: September 29, 2013, 09:51:25 PM »
Norma,

I believe the link works now. I composed the reply on my iPad, which I find harder to do than on my desktop, and although I tested the link in the Preview mode, the software put commas between the tags where they didn't belong.

Many places insist that they are using old family recipes. But that doesn't mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as were used in the beginning or that the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original. For example, by reducing the amount of yeast, a dough that was used at room temperature can be made to work in a cooler. Also, changing the type of yeast doesn't change the recipe in my opinion. New and better flours might require changes in hydration. And so on.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #732 on: September 29, 2013, 10:05:51 PM »
Sam Amico said in that recent article that olive oil is put on the dough first though, so maybe Sam Amico does not always state what is right.

Norma,

Unless I missed sonething, if you go back to the article at http://www.princetoninfo.com/index.php?option=com_us1more&Itemid=6&key=9-25-13pizza , I think you will see that Sam Amico did not say that the oil was put on the skin first. That statement was under the general heading Tomato Pie, and not with respect to De Lorenzo Tomato Pies.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #733 on: September 29, 2013, 11:08:26 PM »
Norma,

I believe the link works now. I composed the reply on my iPad, which I find harder to do than on my desktop, and although I tested the link in the Preview mode, the software put commas between the tags where they didn't belong.

Many places insist that they are using old family recipes. But that doesn't mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as were used in the beginning or that the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original. For example, by reducing the amount of yeast, a dough that was used at room temperature can be made to work in a cooler. Also, changing the type of yeast doesn't change the recipe in my opinion. New and better flours might require changes in hydration. And so on.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks, the link does work now.  I did not see that article before, but saw articles written by author Penny Pollack of “Everyone Loves Pizza” about De Lorenzo's.  I know that many places insist they are using old family recipes and it does not mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as what were used in the beginning, or the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original.  To be named second best pizza in the nation sure is nice.

In this article abut De Lorenzo's on Hamilton it made me chuckle about the older gentleman with the bad hairpiece.  :-D In that article about De Lorenzo's on Hamilton it says the kitchen was so tiny, that you had to squeeze by the busboy and cooks to make it to the bathroom.  Michael did say though that the crust was a bit stale.  He says they had prepared crusts in the kitchen that were probably standing around too long.  http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/blogs/editor/2011/12/trying-trenton-tomato-pie.html

I see Johnny's Pizza being discussed here on the forum with varasano, pftaylor, scott r, Stuart and other members as also being a good thin crust pizza, but it does not have the same crispness or the same dressings as a De Lorenzo's pizza.  I guess I never really experienced a really good thin crust pizza until I tried De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #734 on: September 29, 2013, 11:10:55 PM »
Norma,

Unless I missed sonething, if you go back to the article at http://www.princetoninfo.com/index.php?option=com_us1more&Itemid=6&key=9-25-13pizza , I think you will see that Sam Amico did not say that the oil was put on the skin first. That statement was under the general heading Tomato Pie, and not with respect to De Lorenzo Tomato Pies.

Peter


Peter,

As always you did not miss anything.  It me that read that article wrong.

Norma
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Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #735 on: September 30, 2013, 02:55:49 AM »
Not wanting to miss out on the fun, I decided to have a go a making a DeLorenzo's clone over the weekend.  I used Peter's De Lorenzo Formulation #4:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #4
Flour (100%): 178.95 g  |  6.31 oz | 0.39 lbs
Water (57%): 102 g  |  3.6 oz | 0.22 lbs
IDY (0.30%): 0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.5%): 2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Olive Oil (0.40%): 0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.60%): 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (160.8%): 287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A   

I didn't have any Pillsbury Baker's Patent flour so I used a 50/50 mix of bromated All Trumps and Western Family AP Flour.  Also, for oil, I added the weights of the two types of oil to get 3.58g and used 3.58 grams of Smart Balance Omega 3 Oil which is a blend of Canola, Soy, and Olive oil.  Hopefully those changes didn't skew my results too badly.

I used my KA stand mixer and prepared the dough ball, which weighed 288 g.  (Pic 1) I was thinking that it seemed like the smallest dough ball I'd ever made for a 14" pie.   I placed it in a container dusted with a small amount of cornmeal (pic 2).  The container was placed into the back corner of my refrigerator for 60 hours and then was placed in my oven for 1 hour with the oven light on and then moved to the counter top for an additional 2 hours.  To my surprise it didn't appear over-fermented and had mainly tiny gas bubbles in it.

I dusted the dough with AP flour and found that it opened quite easily.  It was quite extensible but I don't think I could have tossed it.  The peel was dusted with semolina flour. 

I dressed the pizza with 50/50 mozz and provolone and dabbed some doctored Classico crushed on for sauce.  I did remove the pizza and drizzled olive oil and some extra cheese at mid-bake.  I baked it in my home oven on 3/8" steel in my oven set for 500 degrees (up-calibrated to 535 degrees)  8).  Total bake time was 7 to 8 minutes.

We LOVED this recipe!  It crunched nearly from one side to the other when cutting, but was a little soft in the center.  I could have baked it a little longer, but didn't want to face the wrath of my kids for "burning" their pizza and I do feel that, as Norma and Trenton Bill have shown, the high heat offered by the BS or a commercial oven would make this even better.  Next time I will be more careful not to dab too much sauce nor drizzle olive oil in the center of the pie.  I'm looking forward to seeing the results of  De Lorenzo Formulation #5 and beyond, but this is definitely a keeper for me!

--Tim
 
 








Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #736 on: September 30, 2013, 02:56:39 AM »
One more pic

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #737 on: September 30, 2013, 09:00:42 AM »
I didn't have any Pillsbury Baker's Patent flour so I used a 50/50 mix of bromated All Trumps and Western Family AP Flour.  Also, for oil, I added the weights of the two types of oil to get 3.58g and used 3.58 grams of Smart Balance Omega 3 Oil which is a blend of Canola, Soy, and Olive oil.  Hopefully those changes didn't skew my results too badly.

I used my KA stand mixer and prepared the dough ball, which weighed 288 g.  (Pic 1) I was thinking that it seemed like the smallest dough ball I'd ever made for a 14" pie.   I placed it in a container dusted with a small amount of cornmeal (pic 2).  The container was placed into the back corner of my refrigerator for 60 hours and then was placed in my oven for 1 hour with the oven light on and then moved to the counter top for an additional 2 hours.  To my surprise it didn't appear over-fermented and had mainly tiny gas bubbles in it.

Tim,

You did a great job with your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza. You could have fooled me.

The 0.30% IDY in the clone dough formulation you used does a nice job for a roughly two-day cold fermentation. It is a sweet spot for most two-day cold fermented doughs. Under normal conditions, you shouldn't get either underfermentation or overfermentation. In my case, my objective has been to try to make a dough that behaves and performs just like the Robbinsville dough balls that I have seen in photos and videos.

As for your flour blend, next time you might try a blend of 69% All Trumps high-gluten flour and 31% Western Family all-purpose flour. As best I can tell from the Western Family website (specifically, the Nutrition Facts), the Western Family all-purpose flour has a nominal protein content of 10%. Using that number and the protein content of the All Trumps flour (14.2%) in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, to get a protein content of 12.9% for the blend, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour, you want to use the 69%/31% apportionment mentioned above.

Your oil blend is fine. It is perhaps better than what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and assuredly more expensive. You would have to try an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil to see if you can detect a flavor difference. At 2%, you might be able to notice a difference. At 1%, which is a lower value that I have been testing, I'd be surprised if you could detect a flavor difference.

You indicated that you ended up with a 288 gram dough ball. What I have been doing is trimming my overweight dough balls back to about 284 grams, which is about 10 ounces. I do this because I want all of my test dough balls to be the exact same weight. In your case, you don't have to be as fussy since a difference of four grams is not going to have much affect on the final pizza.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #738 on: September 30, 2013, 09:43:27 AM »
Tim,

I agree you did a great job on a De Lorenzo's clone pizza. ;D  Your experiment shows a De Lorenzo's pizza can be made in a home oven with a baking steel which is good news.  Nice job all around.  I really like your nice coloration on the bottom crust.   

Your cornmeal is a lot yellower in color than mine.  I think it is interesting about the different colors of semolina and cornmeal.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #739 on: September 30, 2013, 09:48:52 AM »
Norma,

I think you might find this interesting. Recently, in rereading some of the articles and reviews about the two De Lorenzo operations, I noticed that the writers observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Pizza were thinner than those at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies. The items I am referring to are at http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/25-perfect-pizzas.html and at http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491. On the flip side of this issue, a writeup at Slice/Serious Eats at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies were thinner than at De Lorenzo Pizza. Closer to home, the photos that you took and posted of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, seemed to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. You also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

Truth be told, it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers who commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on the days in question that formed the basis for the articles. Dough balls used in commercial pizza operations are rarely the same weight, even when dough rounders/dividers are used. And the pizza assemblers don't open up dough balls to the exact same sizes, time after time, and get the tape measure out to be sure. Even you indicated that the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at Sloan was about 13", not 14". Rim sizes can also be different from one skin to another. It is also easy to misjudge the thickness of a pizza crust when there are wide variations in what is placed on the pizzas and their quantities, especially when the cheese, sauce and toppings are put on by eye, not by weight. Even if two like pizzas, one from each of two pizza operators (such as the two De Lorenzo operations in our example), were put side by side, it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other. The reality is that a difference in a thickness factor of say, 0.065, which we have been using in our De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone tests, and a thickness factor of, say, 0.07276, which is the thickness factor for the Sloan 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased, is not going to translate into a big difference in dough ball weight, maybe a bit over an ounce for a 14" pizza. And that difference can easily be lost in practice for the reasons mentioned above. I think it would still be nice to know what dough ball weights are used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville but mainly because knowing the answer might help us determine how best to bake the pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:11:57 AM by Pete-zza »


 

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