Author Topic: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?  (Read 25142 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #140 on: August 31, 2013, 07:39:07 PM »
OK, so here's a teaser pic for y'all to enjoy while I compose what will probably be a pretty long post about tonight's pizza (with more pics, which hopefully will have turned out a little better than this one).


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #141 on: August 31, 2013, 07:51:04 PM »
Good find Peter.  Too bad I only have Costco.
Nate,

I was also able to find the Nutrition Facts for the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese, at http://www.fitclick.com/how_many_calories_in_Stella_Mozzarella_Cheese_Whole_Milk?fd=995. For some reason, back in 2008, I could not find that information. Even today, I had to do a lot of searching to find the data.

In any event, one ounce of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese has 7 grams of Total Fat, 4.5 grams of Sat Fat, and 20 mg of Cholesterol. The key nutrient is the Cholesterol because that ingredient is found only in the mozzarella cheese, the grated Parmesan cheese and the butter used to butter the pan in which the pizza is baked. Based on the Nutrition Facts given at Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg53610.html#msg53610, and assuming that all three of those ingredients are reflected in the Nutrition Facts (I assumed one tablespoon each of the grated Parmesan cheese and the butter), the amount of the Stella whole milk mozzarella cheese used in a small (10") Giordano's cheese deep dish pizza comes to about 12 ounces by my calculation. Previously, I came up with 13 ounces but I didn't have the Stella Nutrition Facts at that time.

Keep in mind also that back in 2008, the Giordano's ingredients list said that the mozzarella cheese was a "whole and skim milk" blend. The Stella part-skim milk is lower in fats than the whole milk form (http://www.foodfacts.com/NutritionFacts/Milk-and-milk-products/Stella-Special-Low-Moisture-Part-Skim-Mozzarella-Cheese--lb/70787) so maybe a 50/50 blend of those cheeses would have come to 13 ounces or something close to it. With rounding factors it can be difficult to be precise.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #142 on: August 31, 2013, 08:20:43 PM »
Just wanted to say nice work Ryan.   Thanks for sharing and keep it up!

Chau

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #143 on: August 31, 2013, 08:33:31 PM »
The first thing you'll probably notice about this pizza is that the crust had a really nice color. My first thought was that this must have resulted from using a different flour than I used with my previous stuffed pizzas. But then I remembered that I greased the pan with butter (salted) this time (for the first time), so that may have had something to do with the color. One thing I can say for sure is that the color didn't come from sugar, because there wasn't any sugar. Here's the formula for today's dough:

100% Mondako flour
48% Ice water
0.86% IDY
0.9% Salt
6% Shortening

I made this dough four days ago and refrigerated it immediately after mixing. When I removed the dough from the fridge today, I divided it into a 20 oz dough ball and a 10 oz dough ball, then allowed the dough balls to warm up on the counter, uncovered, for about an hour before rolling them.

In my opinion, the hydration percentage for this dough was a little too high; I had to use some bench flour to roll the dough. Also, I didn't like the sauce. It seemed too salty, and I really couldn't detect any other flavors or spices. I'm curious to find out what Nate has to say about the sauce after he makes his pizza. I'm also curious to find out how tomorrow's Power flour dough will turn out.

I'm not sure of the protein percentage for Mondako, but I'm guessing it's in the 12-13% range. I wasn't expecting anything great out of this flour because it hasn't really impressed me the 2 or 3 times I've used it for NY style, but I'd say it performed pretty well here.

Now that I've thought about it (while composing this post), I think the flour was probably responsible for the nice color of the crust, because I noticed very early during the bake that the top of the crust was getting dark (and I was worried that it would end up getting too dark). The top of the crust never came into contact with butter, so it must be the flour.

The first two pics show that this crust had a very nice color. The other three pics hopefully provide a good look at the crumb.

Thanks Chau.

Offline PizzaNJ

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #144 on: August 31, 2013, 08:52:41 PM »
Really awesome pizza. And outstanding thread -- all the sleuthing and conjecturing is really cool.  :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #145 on: August 31, 2013, 09:00:03 PM »
Ryan,

Very nice job.

If I had to guess, I would say that the browning of the crust was due to the caramelizing of the milk solids and lactose in butter during baking, with associated Maillard reactions. It's much like how butter melted in a pan turns brown.

The Mondako flour has a protein content of 11.9%. That is in bread flour territory. The Power flour has a protein content of 13.5%. That should make for a good test of how a high gluten flour performs in a Giordano's clone. A further test with that flour is how leftovers fare after a day or so, especially the texture of the crust. Does it become hard or overly chewy, or does it retain some softness?

For future reference on the Pendleton flours, you might take note of this document, where the protein numbers are on numbered page 5:

http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #146 on: August 31, 2013, 10:43:22 PM »
First, I want to say thanks for the nice comments.

Also, a few things that are becoming clear to me as I look at the pictures I posted earlier:

1. If I was overly concerned with aesthetics, I'd say I used too much sauce on this pizza (16 oz). 14 or 15 oz is probably more appropriate.
2. Judging by many of the pics of actual Giordano's pizzas, I've determined that the top skin really should be thicker than I've been making them.
3. If you want a gooey cheese effect, don't remove the first slice until several minutes after cutting the pizza. I think the reason why my first slice never oozes cheese is because I always remove it right after I've cut through the cheese. I didn't take the pic at the top of this page until after I'd already eaten my first slice; after the cheese had a chance to become one again with the neighboring slice's cheese.

Whenever I make another batch of dough for this style, I will make a 33 oz batch instead of a 30 oz batch, scaling the dough into an 18 oz dough ball for the bottom skin and a 15 oz dough ball for the top skin. Unfortunately, tomorrow's pizza will probably be my last stuffed pizza for at least a couple weeks, because I need to eat better for a little while. (However, I still have another 5 lbs of Grande mozzarella in the freezer, which means I'll have no choice but to go on another pizza binge before long.)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:56:39 PM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #147 on: August 31, 2013, 10:46:34 PM »
There is a lot of sauce on the top of that pie and I think it works perfectly with the balance of the crust and generous cheese amounts.... skillful work on a really delicious looking pizza Ryan, congratulations!  :chef:
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2013, 12:40:50 AM »
Great looking pie Ryan.  Your crumb is getting very close to the real deal.  I definitely feel the change to high gluten was a step in the right direction.  Can you describe the crumb texture?
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #149 on: September 01, 2013, 01:34:41 AM »
Thanks. This wasn't high gluten flour. It was what I guess you'd call bread flour; maybe even borderline AP. Even though I assume this flour is a higher protein flour than I'd been using (Pillsbury AP and Gold Medal AP), the crust seemed like it was made of a lower protein flour. Tomorrow's crust will be made of high gluten flour (Power flour).

It's been cool being able to try all these different flours lately (especially since I didn't have to buy any of it). It really helps you see the bigger picture, which you can't see when you're locked in to just one or two different flours, like I had been for a long time. Especially with all the different styles of pizza I've been making lately.

Funny that you ask about the crumb because I was just looking at the last picture, trying to figure out if the crumb had that elongated bubble thing I was talking about earlier. I don't know if I can describe the crumb any better than the last picture does. When I ate the last slice, after it had been sitting out for a couple hours, I noticed that the crust was reasonably soft and easy to bite through, if that helps.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #150 on: September 01, 2013, 12:01:31 PM »
Ryan:

I think we're agreeing here, on everything. 

And if you come up with the Nixon era clone, awesome!  No one will know, though, whether it is 1974 Giordano's or not.  It'll just be good pizza.  But maybe it'll somehow taste like the contemporary offering, and that's cool.  But if it's nothing like what is offered now...you've got a "tree falling in the forest" phenomenon, more or less...

Cool. I think the post you're responding to may have sounded a little hostile and defensive, but I didn't mean for it to sound that way. I think you already figured that out, though.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #151 on: September 02, 2013, 12:17:23 PM »
After having just re-read the first 100+ posts in this thread, it occurred to me that the following sauce recipe, which is alleged to be the actual recipe for Giordano's sauce from the mid-1970s, might have a typo.

5 #10 cans Lisanti plum tomatoes
2 #10 cans 7/11 crushed tomatoes
8 T salt
4 T garlic salt
3 T ground pepper
5 T sweet basil
2 T sugar
2 T marjoram
3 T oregano
1 T parsley
32 oz. olive oil
Combine and refrigerate overnight

My hypothesis is that maybe "garlic salt" is actually supposed to be "garlic powder." Here's why I say this:

1) Why use garlic salt when salt is already the most heavily used flavor in the sauce?
2) Nate mentioned that garlic is very present in Giordano's sauce. (I can't taste garlic in the sauce I made, which contained garlic salt, not garlic powder.)
3) As I've already mentioned, I found this sauce to be too salty.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #152 on: September 02, 2013, 01:06:47 PM »
Ryan,

Your analysis sounds correct to me.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #153 on: September 02, 2013, 01:20:21 PM »
Yeah, well I just want everyone to know that Peter's first post after he eclipsed the 20,000-post mark was in response to me!

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #154 on: September 02, 2013, 07:20:26 PM »
Here's the Power flour stuffed pizza with 20 minutes to go. Made the dough five days ago.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #155 on: September 02, 2013, 09:28:47 PM »
Before I get to the good stuff, here are a couple seemingly boring pics that actually helped me learn quite a bit tonight. In the first pic, you can see that there is an extra bit of dough attached to one of the dough balls. That little piece of dough was part of the scraps trimmed from Saturday's Mondako pizza. I put it there mostly to find out if it would brown differently than the Power flour, since Saturday's dough browned so much more than every other stuffed pizza I'd made previously. I rolled the dough so the little piece of Mondako dough would be on the outside of the crust.

The second pic shows that I buttered (unsalted) about 2/3 of the pan and left the rest of the pan ungreased and unbuttered. I did this in an effort to find out if the butter causes any browning of the crust.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #156 on: September 02, 2013, 09:45:45 PM »
Here are some pics of the baked pizza. I wanna say something about them, but the neighbors brought some beer to share with me, and consequently I ain't thinkin' real straight right now. By the way, the neighbors loved this pizza. One of them has actually eaten at Giordano's before, and she loved this pizza. These neighbors have had my NY style and my deep dish, which I think are both pretty good, but this pizza made them very happy.

Oh yeah, I thought the Power flour (high gluten) made by far the best crust of all the stuffed pizzas I've made so far.

A few more pics on the way.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #157 on: September 02, 2013, 09:48:19 PM »
And a few crumb pics.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #158 on: September 03, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »
Ryan

A flour with a protein content of the Power flour you used is sometimes called a medium high-gluten flour, to distinguish it from the really high-gluten flour, such as the All Trumps, Kyrol, etc. See, for example, the King Arthur article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060208023504/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour%20Guide.pdf and the Gibralter flour described at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/gibraltar_medium_high_gluten.html.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #159 on: September 03, 2013, 10:48:09 AM »
Peter,

Thanks to the very good results from the Power flour, I'm willing to try All Trumps (bromated), which I have on the premises. However, it's gonna have to wait probably a few weeks because last night's pizza used all but the last few ounces of my cheese. I still have another bag of Grande whole milk mozzarella, but it's in the freezer (mostly because I want to find out how Grande responds to being frozen). As much as I love pizza, my body needs me to take a break from pizza and eat mostly smoothies for a while. I hope to see some others try what I've been doing lately.

Ryan