Author Topic: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?  (Read 33152 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #150 on: September 01, 2013, 12:01:31 PM »
Ryan:

I think we're agreeing here, on everything. 

And if you come up with the Nixon era clone, awesome!  No one will know, though, whether it is 1974 Giordano's or not.  It'll just be good pizza.  But maybe it'll somehow taste like the contemporary offering, and that's cool.  But if it's nothing like what is offered now...you've got a "tree falling in the forest" phenomenon, more or less...

Cool. I think the post you're responding to may have sounded a little hostile and defensive, but I didn't mean for it to sound that way. I think you already figured that out, though.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #151 on: September 02, 2013, 12:17:23 PM »
After having just re-read the first 100+ posts in this thread, it occurred to me that the following sauce recipe, which is alleged to be the actual recipe for Giordano's sauce from the mid-1970s, might have a typo.

5 #10 cans Lisanti plum tomatoes
2 #10 cans 7/11 crushed tomatoes
8 T salt
4 T garlic salt
3 T ground pepper
5 T sweet basil
2 T sugar
2 T marjoram
3 T oregano
1 T parsley
32 oz. olive oil
Combine and refrigerate overnight

My hypothesis is that maybe "garlic salt" is actually supposed to be "garlic powder." Here's why I say this:

1) Why use garlic salt when salt is already the most heavily used flavor in the sauce?
2) Nate mentioned that garlic is very present in Giordano's sauce. (I can't taste garlic in the sauce I made, which contained garlic salt, not garlic powder.)
3) As I've already mentioned, I found this sauce to be too salty.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #152 on: September 02, 2013, 01:06:47 PM »
Ryan,

Your analysis sounds correct to me.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #153 on: September 02, 2013, 01:20:21 PM »
Yeah, well I just want everyone to know that Peter's first post after he eclipsed the 20,000-post mark was in response to me!
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #154 on: September 02, 2013, 07:20:26 PM »
Here's the Power flour stuffed pizza with 20 minutes to go. Made the dough five days ago.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #155 on: September 02, 2013, 09:28:47 PM »
Before I get to the good stuff, here are a couple seemingly boring pics that actually helped me learn quite a bit tonight. In the first pic, you can see that there is an extra bit of dough attached to one of the dough balls. That little piece of dough was part of the scraps trimmed from Saturday's Mondako pizza. I put it there mostly to find out if it would brown differently than the Power flour, since Saturday's dough browned so much more than every other stuffed pizza I'd made previously. I rolled the dough so the little piece of Mondako dough would be on the outside of the crust.

The second pic shows that I buttered (unsalted) about 2/3 of the pan and left the rest of the pan ungreased and unbuttered. I did this in an effort to find out if the butter causes any browning of the crust.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #156 on: September 02, 2013, 09:45:45 PM »
Here are some pics of the baked pizza. I wanna say something about them, but the neighbors brought some beer to share with me, and consequently I ain't thinkin' real straight right now. By the way, the neighbors loved this pizza. One of them has actually eaten at Giordano's before, and she loved this pizza. These neighbors have had my NY style and my deep dish, which I think are both pretty good, but this pizza made them very happy.

Oh yeah, I thought the Power flour (high gluten) made by far the best crust of all the stuffed pizzas I've made so far.

A few more pics on the way.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #157 on: September 02, 2013, 09:48:19 PM »
And a few crumb pics.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #158 on: September 03, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »
Ryan

A flour with a protein content of the Power flour you used is sometimes called a medium high-gluten flour, to distinguish it from the really high-gluten flour, such as the All Trumps, Kyrol, etc. See, for example, the King Arthur article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060208023504/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour%20Guide.pdf and the Gibralter flour described at http://www.progressivebaker.com/products/spring_wheat_flours/gibraltar_medium_high_gluten.html.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #159 on: September 03, 2013, 10:48:09 AM »
Peter,

Thanks to the very good results from the Power flour, I'm willing to try All Trumps (bromated), which I have on the premises. However, it's gonna have to wait probably a few weeks because last night's pizza used all but the last few ounces of my cheese. I still have another bag of Grande whole milk mozzarella, but it's in the freezer (mostly because I want to find out how Grande responds to being frozen). As much as I love pizza, my body needs me to take a break from pizza and eat mostly smoothies for a while. I hope to see some others try what I've been doing lately.

Ryan
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #160 on: September 03, 2013, 11:34:08 AM »
Ryan,

I'm curious to know how your side tests with the Mondako dough and the partial butterering of the pan turned out.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #161 on: September 03, 2013, 02:13:15 PM »
Ryan,

I'm curious to know how your side tests with the Mondako dough and the partial butterering of the pan turned out.

Peter

Peter,

Y'know, I thought I had some clear results regarding that stuff when I posted last night. But as I indicated, I did have a nice beer buzz while I updated. So what I have to say now is a little different than what I would have said when I posted the pics last night.

As you can see in the first picture below, the near part of the crust is noticeably darker than most of the rest of the crust. Originally I thought the dark area showed that the Mondako dough came out a little darker than the Power flour dough. However, after looking some more, I'm more inclined to say it appears that about 2/3 of the crust is pretty dark, which may suggest that the darker color is a result of greasing the pan with butter. If you look at the pic of the buttered pan, the butter seems to occupy about the same space as the dark crust. So I'd say the results of my butter and dough experiment last night are kind of inconclusive at this point.

However, because there was no part of the crust that browned considerably less than any other part of the crust, I feel pretty comfortable saying a buttered pan does not contribute much browning of the crust (but that it probably does contribute some browning). This also indicates to me that both the Power flour and the Mondako flour brown a lot more than the AP flours I've used for this style of pizza. And since this kind of dough/crust easily comes out of an unbuttered/unoiled pan after baking for 35 minutes at 460, I'm inclined to say buttering the pan is mostly wasted energy, as well as wasted money.

One thing worth noting is that the small piece of Mondako dough ended up occupying considerably more area of the bottom crust than you might assume by looking at the dough picture. So most of the darker brown area of crust might have resulted entirely from the Mondako dough's influence, rather than the butter's influence.

Summary: I'm not sure if the darker area of crust resulted from buttering the pan or if it resulted from the partial inclusion of Mondako dough scraps. I'm almost certain the darker area resulted from one of those things, but I'm not sure which. I'm leaning toward saying it was the butter.

Ryan
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:45:58 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2013, 12:11:46 AM »
Peter,


Summary: I'm not sure if the darker area of crust resulted from buttering the pan or if it resulted from the partial inclusion of Mondako dough scraps. I'm almost certain the darker area resulted from one of those things, but I'm not sure which. I'm leaning toward saying it was the butter.

Ryan
Did you compare the undersides?
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2013, 01:04:18 AM »
Did you compare the undersides?

It seems like that should have happened by now, but you hardly ever see the bottom of these things. It's not exactly the kind of pizza you turn upside down, or sideways, or even slightly tilted. Also, thereís just something about these pizzas thatís kinda mesmerizing. Not sure if I can pinpoint exactly what it is, though.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »
It seems like that should have happened by now, but you hardly ever see the bottom of these things. It's not exactly the kind of pizza you turn upside down, or sideways, or even slightly tilted. Also, thereís just something about these pizzas thatís kinda mesmerizing. Not sure if I can pinpoint exactly what it is, though.
Nice pics Ryan; I think you duly captured your "mesmerizing factor"....CHEESE MONSTER!!  :drool:
The "bite" on/into these things is a pretty phenomenal experience thing too though.  ;)
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Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2013, 10:41:38 AM »
Hey Ryan,

I really want to try making a couple of 9" Giordano's clones this weekend and I could use your advice. Can you break down the amounts of all of the ingredients and instructions for making the top and bottom crusts? I have two 9"x2" straight-sided pans. Hope I'm not asking too much, but you've been very generous with your knowledge thus far and your posts have given me confidence after years of wanting to try.

Thanks!
Monte

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2013, 06:41:24 PM »
No problem, Monte. Here's what I think should be an adequate dough formula, followed by a recipe for 56 oz (1,588 g) of dough, which should be just right for two 9" pizzas.

100% Flour
47% Water
1% ADY
0.9% Salt
6% Fat (shortening or oil)

36.15 oz Flour
16.99 oz Water
0.36 oz ADY (3.62 tsp)
0.33 oz Salt (1.89 tsp)
2.17 oz Fat

or

1025 g Flour
482 g Water
10 g ADY
9 g Salt
61 g Fat

Try to make the dough as soon as you see this. I'd say you should use bread flour, rather than AP flour. Refrigerate (bulk ferment) immediately after mixing, covered.

A few hours before you intend to bake, pull the dough from the fridge and scale into four dough balls. Two dough balls (for main crust) should be 16.12 oz (457 g) and the other two (for top crust) should be 11.79 oz (334 g). Leave them at room temperature, covered (or not covered, if you want them to get a little crusty).

A few hours later: For the main crust, roll one of the larger dough balls so it's just big enough to fit snugly inside the pan, going all the way up the sides and hanging over the top of the pan about an inch all the way around. Fill with 10.44 oz (296 g) of mozzarella, plus toppings of your choice, before adding the top crust.

For the top crust, roll one of the smaller dough balls so it's big enough to cover the whole pan, with the dough hanging over the top of the pan about an inch all the way around. This may be thicker than you think you want it to be. If it is, just roll it a little thinner.

After putting the top dough skin in place, pinch several holes in the top skin and crimp the two skins together all the way around the side of the pan. Use a sharp knife or a pastry roller to trim the excess dough around the top of the pan. Add about 11.06 oz (314 g) of sauce on top of the top skin and use gravity to distribute the sauce. Sprinkle parmesan cheese and bake on a preheated stone at 460 for about 35 minutes.

You'll be left with enough scrap dough to make another pizza, but you'll probably have to make it a little thinner or a little smaller, or make it the same size with a very thin top skin or no top skin.

I think everything I've said here should be good information. If you have any questions, or if anything doesn't seem right to you, just say something.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:05:39 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #167 on: October 03, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
Thanks much for the reply, Ryan. Appreciate the instructions. Probably won't be able to make the dough until Thursday night, so maybe Sunday is too soon to make the pizzas? What's the optimum cold ferment time on the dough?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2013, 08:26:23 PM »
Optimum: I'd like to give it five days, but you should be fine.

That's a tough question, for at least a couple reasons: 1) I've only made 7 or 8 of these; 2) I've never had Giordano's or any other stuffed pizza except the ones I've made; 3) With half of the batches of Giordano's style dough I've made, I've been trying to get the feel for IDY, which may not be in the most usable condition.

1% ADY (or 0.75% IDY, with cooler water) should still work fine. I think you can get away with a big yeast percentage range with this kind of dough. One thing is certain: Even though it might be best to give this dough a little longer cold fermentation, 2.5 or 3 days of fermentation is still adequate. Maybe you should save the scraps for another pizza at least a couple days later. That way you can get a feel for how a single dough changes with a couple extra days of fermentation.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #169 on: October 06, 2013, 12:23:07 AM »
Dough has been in the fridge since Thursday night, sauce is mixed and in the fridge, so I'm going to try this tomorrow afternoon. One last concern Ė I don't have a stone. Does this change things considerably, or do I follow the same baking time/temp and put the pan on the middle rack?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2013, 01:45:41 AM »
You'll probably be fine without a stone. My guess is that it'll just take a little longer for the bottom of the pan to get up to baking temperature. Might not make any difference at all, for all I know. 35-minute bake time has worked well for me, but I think I baked one of them for 40 minutes and it came out fine. The only time I've had any problem was when I forgot I had the oven set at 500 until the pizza had already been baking for 12 or 13 minutes. That one (my third one) came out a little overdone and tough on the bottom, but I think mostly it was all right.

Even though most of the stuffed pizzas I've made so far have been in the direction of phenomenal, I don't have enough experience with this style yet to really know much about it. Not to mention I have never had Giordano's, which makes it harder for me to know if I'm doing it right, even if I am doing it right. So just realize that some things I say may be wrong, even though I think what I'm telling you is good information.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2013, 01:57:38 AM »
If the previous post wasn't clear, I guess I'm saying you probably want to give it 40 minutes, just to be safe. At this point I have no idea how to judge visually when the pizza is done. I made an educated guess with my first one, and it worked, so I haven't really changed the bake time.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?q
« Reply #172 on: October 07, 2013, 09:49:31 PM »
Well, my first attempt was unsuccessful for many reasons, not the least of which was the oven getting shut off at some unknown point. Tried again tonight with the scrap dough and can confirm that Ryan's dough is as close to Giordano's as I've ever had. Was really surprised how close it comes to the real thing.

Everything wrong with the first two pizzas mostly had to do with technique - mainly rolled too thick - and I fixed it with tonight's pizza. An extra day in the fridge helped, too. The only bread flour at my grocery store was King Arthur, but it turned out well. Thanks again Ryan!

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #173 on: October 07, 2013, 11:49:04 PM »
Awesome! Glad it turned out well, and glad to hear some feedback from someone who's actually had Giordano's. Now go mix up some more dough and try it again in about five days, now that you have a better feel for it.

What kind of tomato product did you use? It looks like a puree or something. If you can get any, try Stanislaus Tomato Magic, Escalon 6 IN 1 (without peels), or Stanislaus 7/11. Also, did you try the sauce recipe from earlier in this thread?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #174 on: October 08, 2013, 04:32:13 PM »
I worked from the recipe you posted earlier in the thread, taking some suggestions from later posts (swapping garlic powder for garlic salt, adding red pepper flakes) and modifying some things to taste.

I used a combination of Carmelina's San Marzanos whole peeled tomatoes and Glen Muir crushed tomatoes. I've been looking for the 6-in1 tomatoes with no luck for a while now, as they were the most frequently mentioned on previous threads. I might order some online for my next try, if I can't find them here in San Antonio. The tomatoes weren't bad, though, and I think the sauce would be better if I strained them a bit and used less of the puree they were packaged in.

I'll definitely use more cheese next time, too; closer to 13 oz., but that's more of a personal preference.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:34:02 PM by MontsterTX »