Author Topic: Gino's East Baker's Formula  (Read 19768 times)

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Offline foodblogger

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Gino's East Baker's Formula
« on: February 11, 2006, 10:14:17 AM »
I decided to post the baker's formula of my Gino's East clone.  Do to overwhelming sentiment against cornmeal in the crust, I have excluded it and adjusted the formula a bit.


Gino's East Baker's Formula


100% flour
50% water
15% oil (I like corn, but some prefer canola)
3% olive oil
2% sugar
1% cream of tartar
1% salt
0.75% IDY
Yellow food coloring - about 1% but be careful.  1/2 t per pound flour gets the right color.

The reason I am posting this is because I believe in the power of collaboration on this board.  Look at the progress that they have made over in the NY style formula.  I think that we can push deep dish to a new level.  My intention is not to duplicate Gino's East, but to take the basic forumla and push it beyond.  I am open to whatever people can come up with, but some ideas for processing (lifted from Buzz and DKM) are:

1)  24 hour cold ferment
2)  Very low kneed time - 2 minutes

Should there be an autolyse?  Should the dough be pressed into the pan or rolled out and placed in?

Ideas?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Please post.  Lets get'er done. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 10:27:53 AM by foodblogger »


Offline chiguy

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 10:51:47 AM »
 Hi foodblogger,
 The recipe is pretty consistent with other deep dishes here. I personally have gone back to adding a little corn meal or fine semolina. I add 10% to the total weight of flour and really like the results. I understand that this may not be consistent with deep dish, it is all about personal preference. That is what home pizza making is all about. I also think corn oil help to give the crust a more yellow tint.

 foodblogger,
 What was the amount of corn meal you had been using in you're crust?
                                                                                                        Chiguy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 10:54:41 AM by chiguy »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 12:14:33 PM »
Quote
What was the amount of corn meal you had been using in you're crust?

Typically 8.5%.  I didn't always use corn meal, sometimes I used corn flour.  It depended what I had on hand.

Could you describe your process a little?  How do you make up the dough?  How do you get the dough into the pan?  How do you bake it? 

Also what do you typically use for cheese, sauce, toppings etc?  Any info you could add would be great.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 08:40:04 PM »
 hi foodblogger,
 I am no expert on deep dish so you would be better off following a DKM or BUZZ recipe.
 I know Buzz does not use bakers percentages but others have converted the recipe and posted it in the Chicago section somewhere. My recipe basically only differs from yours in oil % and NO cream of tarter. I use 16% corn oil, which i think gives a nice flavor and color.
 I press the dough into the pan by hand. I usually use sliced provalone cheese and whole peeld tomatoes(no special brand) chopped and seasoned(oregano,parmesan,salt). I try for a Lou's type sauce topping. I use a 23oz dough ball for a 13in by 1 1/2in deep pan. This is about a .14 thickness factor if you would like to convert it to you're pan size.  Goodluck, Chiguy

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 10:49:34 AM »
Sunday we had company over so I decided to make up a deep dish.  I used the formula above.  For processing I did the following:

1)  Dissolve salt and yellow food coloring in water.
2)  Add half of the flour and the yeast.
3)  Stir until mixed.
4)  Cover bowl with plastic wrap.  Let sit for 20 minutes.
5)  Add the rest of the ingredients and stir until combined.
6)  Hand kneed for 2 minutes.
7)  Place dough ball in a gallon ziplock bag and let proof in the fridge for 24 hours.

The shaping process I used was:

1)  Remove dough from fridge and allow to warm up on counter for 2 hours.
2)  About an hour into the warming up, prepare the oven. (see below)
3)  When ready to bake, pour 1/4 cup olive oil into the bottom of a 12 inch deep dish pan.
4)  Dust counter with flour and flatten dough ball with hand to make a round circle.  Let sit for a few minutes.
5)  Using your fingertips, press the dough outward to form a round dough piece.  Let rest a few minutes.
6)  Using your palms, stretch the dough out further to a diameter of almost 12 inches.  Let rest a few minutes.
7)  Lift dough from counter and stretch on your knuckles until it is about the right size for the deep dish pan.
8)  Place dough in pan and press the edges 1 1/2 inches up the sides of the pan.
9)  Top pizza.

For cheese I used Stella (purchased at Sam's Club.)
For flour I used King Arthur All Purpose flour.
For yeast I used Red Star instant yeast.
For sauce I used a can of 6 in 1 tomatoes that I drained a little bit.  I added 1 tablespoon of sea salt, about a teaspoon of oregano and 1 teaspoon of basil.  I also added about 1/2 teaspoon crushed red pepper flakes.
The other toppings on my pizza were pepperoni and sausage.  Just before putting the pizza in the oven I sprinkled the top with parmesan and some dried parsley.

Here is a photo of the pie just as it came out of the oven.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 08:02:45 PM by Steve »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2006, 10:54:18 AM »
Here is a photo of the cut pie.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 10:56:08 AM »
And here is a closeup of the crust.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 11:00:14 AM »
I baked the pie on the bottom rack of my oven.  The oven was preheated to 450 for about an hour.  I had a pizza stone on a rack 7.5 inches above the pie to provide radiant heat to the top of the pie.

It was certainly the best deep dish I have made to date.  Notice that the processing included an autolyse and a 24 hour cold fermentation.  I hand stretched the dough.  No rolling pins got anywhere near this dough ball.  I'd be interested to see if other people could duplicate my results.

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 12:29:41 PM »
WOW.  That looks DAMN good.  You da man.

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 12:32:02 PM »
How do I translate that bakers formula into something a dummy like me can understand?  I'm an expert eater of this pizza, but only tried making it for the last 6-8 months.  I'd be happy to pony up and try and duplicate what you did.


Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 12:53:19 PM »
I can convert it for you if you tell me what size of pan you are going to use and a little bit about the pan.  I'll post my calculations so that you can see how I did it.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 01:17:26 PM »
foodblogger,

Unless I missed it from the above posts, you did not indicate the weight of the dough that you used for your deep-dish pie. Did you weigh it or use a math approach to determine the thickness factor? And, can you tell us the thickness of the dough when it went into the pan?

Peter


Offline chiguy

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 01:23:34 PM »
 hi Foodblogger,
 A nice looking pizza, i have not been to Ginos in about 5 years so i cannot remember that well. All i remember is that like all the other deep dish places, it was a pleasantly satisfying meal.  Is thier crust really that yellow??           Chiguy

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2006, 02:14:40 PM »
pete-zza:
For that 12 inch pan, I use 575 grams as the total dough weight to make deep dish.  Calculating that out, I get a thickness factor of about .17, which seems high to me.  The dough is no more than 1/4 inch thick when I put it into the pan.

Chiguy:
Gino's crust is yellow.  The last time I ate there was 2001, so it may have changed.  I sure hope not.

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2006, 02:29:30 PM »
I can convert it for you if you tell me what size of pan you are going to use and a little bit about the pan.  I'll post my calculations so that you can see how I did it.

I have a 14" pan that I use.  Unfortunately, its nothing special, but all I have access to out here in Ohio.  I can't remember the brand name.  It was actually "Chicago..." something.  I am actually headed to Chicago this weekend to visit family/friends.  I am actually going to try to get a real pan from either Lou's or Gino's... (or both).  Has anyone tried to do this and been successful?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2006, 03:33:22 PM »
foodblogger,

I believe the correct thickness factor is 0.1266. I ran your numbers (baker's percents, pan size, total dough weight, dough depth, and 1/4-inch dough thickness) through my spreadsheet and got the above thickness factor number, which seems more in line with the thickness factors I have seen and used for deep-dish. Since I am still testing my spreadsheet for errors, I decided to do the calculations the old-fashioned way to see if the numbers match.

The total surface area of a deep-dish pan is equal the the sum of the surface area of the bottom of the pan plus the surface area of the side of the pan (I am assuming a straight side). Since the dough on the bottom of the pan uses up part of the depth of the side of the pan, by about 1/4-inch, that 1/4-inch should be subtracted from the depth of the pan or, in your case, from the depth of the dough in your pan (1.5 in.). So, if my premises and math are correct, this is what we get:

Surface area of the bottom of the pan = 3.14159 x 6 x 6 = 113.09616 sq. in. [This is pi times radius squared]
Surface area of the side of the pan = (3.14159 x 12) x (1.5 - 1/4) =  47.1234 sq. in. [This is pi times diameter--i.e., circumference--times adjusted depth of pan or, in your case, the dough]
Total surface area = 113.09616 + 47.1234 = 160.21956
Total dough weight = 575 g. = 20.282186 oz. [This is weight in grams divided by 28.35]
Thickness factor = 20.282186/160.21956 = 0.1265899

I left all the decimal places in so that your calculator will produce the same numbers. Of course, if the side of a pan is sloped, or if the pan depth (or dough depth) is different, the numbers will change. For example, if the side of the pan is sloped, then you have to calculate the surface area of a trapezoid--which is the shape of the side if it is laid out flat--plus tweak the answer to compensate for the 1/4-inch factor. Since my spreadsheet doesn't deal with sloping sides, I would have to use the old-fashioned brute force approach.

Peter

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2006, 03:39:45 PM »
Pete-zza:
Thanks for your calculations.  I don't know what my problem with numbers is today.  I have to be off somewhere but I'm not sure where.  I think your thickness factor seems a lot more reasonable.

djryan:
I seem to be having a problem with calculations today, but I'll give it a shot unless pete-zza wants to.  2 more quick questions:
1)  Do you have a scale, and if so is it capable of working in grams?
2)  Are the sides of your 14 inch pan straight up and down?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 03:44:08 PM by foodblogger »

Offline djryan1194

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2006, 03:50:33 PM »
I don't have a scale, but I'm willing to go get one.  And yes, my pan is a deep dish pan in that the sides do go straight up.

Thanks again for your help.

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2006, 04:49:32 PM »
djryan:
I ran a few numbers.  I am having number problems today but here goes.

To calculate the weight of dough you will need the formula is:
dough weight = 3.14 X R X R X thickness factor
Pete-zza calculated my thickness factor to be 0.127 so -

Dough weight = 3.14 X 7 X 7 X 0.127
                       =  19.54 ounces or 554 grams

I have to be doing something wrong here, because that would mean that you would be using less dough for a 14 in pan than I did for a 12 inch pan.  I'm scratching my head here.  But based on a dough weight of 554 grams, the rest of your weights would be as follows:

To figure out the flour weight, you divide the dough weight by the total percent of the formula.  The total percent for this formula is 100 + 50 + 15 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 172.75%
The 172.75 is expressed as a ratio of 1 for the sake of calculations so TP = 1.7275.

Flour weight = dough weight / TP = 554 grams / 1.7275 = 320 grams
The rest of the ingredients are figured out by ingredient weight = ingredient % X total flour weight.

water = .5 X 320 = 160 grams
corn oil = .15 X 320 = 48 grams
olive oil = .03 X 320 = 10 grams
sugar = .02 X 320 = 6 grams
cream of tartar = .01 X 320 = 3 grams
salt = .01 X 320 = 3 grams
yeast = .0075 X 320 = 2 grams

I had to round to the nearest gram because my scale is only accurate to the gram, and most likely yours will be to.

Gino's Style 14 inch Deep dish
Flour = 320 grams
water = 160 grams
corn oil = 48 grams
olive oil = 10 grams
sugar = 6 grams
cream of tartar = 3 grams
salt = 3 grams
instant dry yeast = 2 grams

I'll repeat the processing instructions because they are very very important.  This kind of pizza is less about the recipe and a lot more about the process.

Dough Mixing
1)  Dissolve salt and yellow food coloring in water.
2)  Add half of the flour and the yeast.
3)  Stir until mixed.
4)  Cover bowl with plastic wrap.  Let sit for 20 minutes.
5)  Add the rest of the ingredients and stir until combined.
6)  Hand kneed for 2 minutes.  (and ONLY 2 minutes)
7)  Place dough ball in a gallon ziplock bag and let proof in the fridge for 24 hours.

Shaping

1)  Remove dough from fridge and allow to warm up on counter for 2 hours.
2)  About an hour into the warming up, prepare the oven. (see below)
3)  When ready to bake, pour 1/4 cup olive oil into the bottom of a 12 inch deep dish pan.  (for your 14 inch pan I would use a 1/4 cup olive oil and then an extra ga-llug of oil.  A ga-llug is the noise it makes when you pour off 1 good sized load)
4)  Dust counter with flour and flatten dough ball with hand to make a round circle.  Let sit for a few minutes.
5)  Using your fingertips, press the dough outward to form a round dough piece.  Let rest a few minutes.
6)  Using your palms, stretch the dough out further to a diameter of almost 12 inches.  Let rest a few minutes.
7)  Lift dough from counter and stretch on your knuckles until it is about the right size for the deep dish pan.
8-  Place dough in pan and press the edges 1 1/2 inches up the sides of the pan.
9)  Top pizza and immediately place into the oven.

Bake at 450 degrees on the bottom rack of the oven for 15 minutes.  At 15 minutes rotate the pizza 180 degrees and check it.  In my oven I bake 10 more minutes so that it looks like it does in the photo above.

I hope this works for you.  I wrote down what I did for my pizza but my notes are at home.  I'll have to go over my calculations again to see what I did wrong.  Best of luck.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gino's East Baker's Formula
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2006, 05:14:53 PM »
foodblogger,

The part you left out was the surface area of the side of the pan. I'd be happy to run the numbers through my spreadsheet if you'd like and you are satisfied with my calculation of the thickness factor. In any event, we will want to know the depth of djryan's pan to be sure that it can accommodate the 1 1/2-inch dough depth you used. Even then, it is possible to use a different dough depth, either more or less. I'm guessing that djryan has a Chicago Metallic pan. Most of their deep-dish pans tend to be 1 1/2" deep.

Peter