Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 24381 times)

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Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2013, 12:10:45 PM »
Construction of a Stefano Ferrara fixed oven.

Did they run out of Tuff stones in Italy ?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 12:17:03 PM by sub »


Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2013, 12:13:03 PM »
suite
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 12:16:28 PM by sub »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2013, 12:21:38 PM »
Did he find two old guys on the street and have them build that oven?  I varies greatly from his others, and has some very odd and questionable features.
-Jeff

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2013, 12:32:10 PM »
Flue pipe direct to the vent?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2013, 05:42:18 PM »
Kinda looks like a not so traditional.....traditional neapolitan pizza oven.The generations before them must be turning in their gravesI always assumed we watch them,but they maybe watching us.That block work and flue to vent looks familiar to many that spend anytime at the Forno Bravo sight.  The brick work ....not so much

Next thing ya know they"ll start wrapping the mobile units in 3 inches of fiber blanket.

Bill
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 08:13:35 PM by txtanner »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2013, 08:28:05 PM »
Earlier I was on my phone so didn't type too much, but I have a few major questions about that oven.  First, either it lacks insulation completely under the floor, OR it lacks a sound structural layer under the floor.  First you seem them set the thin Terra Cotta tiles, then they pour a layer over top of it.  Either that layer is an insulator and adds no structural strength to those flimsy tiles, or it is structural and adds no insulation under the floor.  Second that flue pipe looks to be simple single wall galvanized HVAC fittings.  It will be gone in no time, and would not remotely meat code in the US. 
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 11:22:01 PM »
Those are structural clay tiles and they are a lot stronger than you would think.  As for the rest, I agree completely.

Edit:  It looks like they have a perlcrete layer under the floor.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:23:40 PM by Tscarborough »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »
., but I have a few major questions about that oven.  First, either it lacks insulation completely under the floor, OR it lacks a sound structural layer under the floor.  First you seem them set the thin Terra Cotta tiles, then they pour a layer over top of it.  Either that layer is an insulator and adds no structural strength to those flimsy tiles, or it is structural and adds no insulation under the floor.  .

It's easy to misunderstand what happening in a picture.Those terracotta looking tiles which look a lot like kiln shelves could just be getting marked or cut for some other later function just because that's the same material Stephano uses later in the building of the vent.

That being said I do think they are using these in the construction of the slab, because if you look closely you can see the triangular wire coming up from the tiles as well as horizontal wire passing through those triangles.We don't see it in a picture but they may have added rebar or 4 x 4 wire mesh to that.

This oven definitely has a structural slab.Most blocks here are 8 x 16 so it's clear to see in the picture there's at least 6 or 7  inches of something poured on top of the blocks.Either the tiles were cut to fit inside and flush to the top of the blocks and supported from underneath or hung from the rebar some way and then covered with 6 inch of concrete, Or as it looks in the pictures the tiles are cut to set on the blocks and the slab is poured on top of this.The resulting slab is 6 or 7 inches thick at its outer edge where it sits on the block and 3 or 4 thick on top of the tile.

One picture shows they have poured perlicrete on top of the slab.So the insulation is on top of the slab were it'll do the most good.As far as the tiles under the slab I cant speak to whether or not it insulates or how well.It seems as it would or they think so.Maybe they just didn't have any plywood


So to answer the question,It's gotta slab and insulation.


Sorry I started writing this 1 hour ago and I see that some of this has been coverd by T
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 11:54:33 PM by txtanner »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2013, 12:15:44 AM »
I got a question....Do the fire laws pertaining to the way they  run the flues change from city to city and state to state change like they do in the states? Some seem to just run straight up through the ceiling and some through walls.  I saw some piped into some sort of machine on the wall that I assumed was some kind of powered vent which could explain a lot.

I just see so much horizontal ducting. Maybe its just what necessary to get out of the building.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 12:20:05 AM »
Codes vary city to city, and then those vary if you are in the county.  IBC is the norm for a minimum starting point, and if there is any code compliance at all the vent will be a minimum of double wall with stainless steel inner pipe construction. 


Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 12:26:33 AM »
Damn your blazing fast Tscarborough.  Didn't see no double wall there...I guess that one's going under the radar.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2013, 05:14:24 AM »
I have seen pictures with piles of bags containing leca (expanded clay) in some sf builds. I guess at least in their mobile ovens this is what they use under the floor probably around 10 inches. Since there is so much of it where they build the mobile ovens i guess they are using it a lot. Perlite is not so common product in europe. At least not it sweden. But maby in this case they are using perclete or vermicrete since the layer is so thin compared to their mobile ovens.. just guessing :-\

Funny also that they were in such hurry they forgot to buy corner stones for their leca stand so they have to level them with mortar by hand..

Also i have never seen a picture of any buttress on their mobile ovens. Insulation cant act as it since there are none. Anyone seen or do they not need it?

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2013, 07:23:14 AM »
Nice Catch fagilia !

Leca Expended Clay

I've only seen the bags on the pictures from the factory too.

With quotes provided by Omid I think the thickness is around 8 inches.

Perlite and Vermiculite are common in France and Belgium for lightweight structural concrete, house insulation, fireplace vent insulation, horticulture... (Efiperl, Vermex)

in  the previos page, there was a bag of "grasselo di calce" slaked lime in the shipped materials.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:27:36 AM by sub »

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2013, 03:20:22 PM »
This thread is awesome Sub. Keep on adding more pics & info, thank you. I have some questions for you.

Do you know name of the craftsman who builds "Forno Napoletano" ovens? How about name of the craftsman who built da Michele's oven?

If money was no object, which neapolitan oven would you choose/buy? Why?

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2013, 03:44:49 PM »
Thanks Pulcinella,

I don't know who's behind Forno Napoletano, maybe another member can answer that.

I'll quote Marco Parente:

Aversa produce the best oven floor you can find, but they are not the best oven builder in or around Naples. The Master of them all was somebody called Mastro Ernesto (family name Agliarulo) who died 20 years ago. He builded the best ovens in Naples, among the others Trianon's and Port'Alba. The Trianon one for example was built in 1923 and it is still standing today and working beautifully. His two sons (now over 70's years old) are the best now, but they are really, really expensive.

Other then the Agliarulo brothers, there are two more families that are famous in Naples for their ovens:

Natale/Ferrara (brother in Law) that have made the ovens at Brandi, Di Matteo, Gino Sorbillo, Il Pizzaiolo del Presidente and others. www.sfallestimenti.it

De Turris that have made the ovens of Da Michele, Salvo's and other pizzerias.

If I have to choose,

I realy like the look of the Ferrara mobile, but I'll end up doing it myself with a better insulation.



Dimensions of a Gianni Acunto oven

Offline fagilia

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2013, 03:45:19 PM »
I have got some questions about the measurments of Craigs oven vent that i have been using. I decided to post them here since its a better place for it.
Personally i did not use them exactly but more or less so they fitted to my own oven.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 02:02:02 AM by fagilia »

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2013, 04:31:02 PM »

Also i have never seen a picture of any buttress on their mobile ovens. Insulation cant act as it since there are none. Anyone seen or do they not need it?

Excellent question fagilla,  and a question I've asked myself many times.As I look over these pictures a light bulb went off in my head.You'll notice it doesn't appear they cut any angle on the top of their solder course but they do mud it all together.Next they pour the sand dome.Next from what it looks like in the pictures the cut angled pieces that set,but do not mortar on top of the soldiers.These pieces seem to support the first few courses as they stack course after course until they reach the center of the dome.At this point I believe there would be enough force on the bricks{the first course isn't resting on top of the soldiers but just below the top pushing out) that they are able to now remove the angled blocks.****I just notice one photo where it looks like the first course was placed without sand form for the dome and whatever he is using it's really wet.look at the runs going down the soldiers.***

Now here's where the MAGIC happens

What's left is a 4 inch wide 4 inch deep area on top of the soldier course.They fill this area with some kind of reinforced (stainless needles) mortar or insulating concrete.This drys and become a big band that controls outward motion of the dome and converts it into downward or compressive motion on the soldiers.This in turn makes soldier buttressing unneeded or at least to a lesser degree.They buttress the source of outward force directly instead of the soldiers

Ever notice all the messy mud on top of the soldiers in his pictures. As we say in the south He's crazy allright.........crazy like a fox.

Food for thought.Does anyone think this could be the case?If not what do you think?

Bill


« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 04:47:44 PM by txtanner »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2013, 05:44:26 PM »
That is called, "parging" and it alone combined with the way he fills the back of the ceiling with flowable mortar is what holds it together.  Other ones are buttressed against the stucco shell.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2013, 08:40:22 PM »
Not to be overly technical but I would never refer to what they're doing as "parging"at least not to an old mason... That would involve working the mud in with a trial or float much like the way you parge a wall with crumbing mortar.  They just mix a wet slurry up and dump it on and wipe it by hand.But I guess it works to accomplish the same thing.

I was looking to stir the discussion on alternative ways to buttress or improvement to what they currently do.I think reinforced insulating refractory placed on the soldiers instead of free form mortar.

Bill

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:04:12 PM by txtanner »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2013, 09:01:11 PM »
For the ceiling, that is why I made the distinction.  The soldier course is parged.