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[bearfootie]

Buzz, Peter,
I  managed a Jakes Pizza in the 70S for a 1 1/2 years and used a deck style oven. The temp was always around 500 and baked primarily thin crust pies, usually depending on toppings, for about 10 - 15 minutes. We had very few pan orders. At that time I wasn't interested in being too creative, just turned them out like a machine. (Did I miss my opportunity or what !!???) ( Although I did create, which I had never seen offered before, at that time, a barbecue pizza where I mixed 1/2 and 1/2 pizza sauce and barbecue sauce then topped it with shrimp and green pepper and they sold like crazy)  When I wanted an authentic deep dish I just took a drive to Chicago 30 miles away and went to Unos. Now that I'm in MT. my desperation as spurred my creativity. They say "Necessity is the mother of invention"!
My stone arrangement was an attempt at simulating a deck style oven as you mused. I placed a baking pan under the stone. ( and I do use the middle rack) as the instructions that came with the stone say do not broil on the stone and I assumed that heat coming from below, directly at the stone, would in effect be the same as applying heat to the stone from the element directly above. I didn't want to stress it and eventually have it crack. I read in these forums that they seem to crack quite often. Wouldn't worry about it if I had a  gas oven, due to the sheet of metal, (actually the floor of the oven) between heat source and stone
I previously had tried this arrangement without the bottom stone/baking pan, using only the top stone, and the top cooked too quickly and the bottom of the pizza was undercooked. Now that I've been using the baking pan/ stone and top stone arrangement, (at 450 or 500) everything bakes evenly, finishing out exactly at the same time, in around 25 minutes.
I'm really close on the Lou texture that I want in the crust, just would like a little more flavor in the crust, but am not sure what taste it is I am shooting for. Stronger taste is the only way I can describe it, maybe it's yeastier, not quite sure. Need to eat one of mine and one of Lou's side by side I guess. I have one left from my "Lou To Go Order"  (four for $65.00, includes shipping, guess it's still cheaper than eating out) and hate to sacrifice it for this test. Thanks for everyone's help.

[JSR]

I am new to this site, but I have enjoyed reading some of the posts on Chicago style pizza.

Over the past year, I have taken up a hobby of trying to duplicate the taste and texture of Lou's pizza. As a novice, I have made a lot of attempts, some of which tasted good, but none of which had the exact flavor or texture of a Malnati's deep dish pizza. However, I did stumble upon one ingredient recently that seemed to get me closer to that intense flavor in the crust that seems to have eluded everyone. As strange as it may sound, I think it is coffee! Since I have been putting a small amount of coffee in the water for the crust, it has really helped bring out the flavor. Now all I need is some help getting the heavy, "cut it with a knife" texture. My crusts using AP flour and short kneads have all been light, fluffy, white bread-like textures.

Any suggestions from the experts?

JR

[bearfootie]

Coffee, hmmm. How much of the liquid is coffee? I've always wondered how beer would work, to give it a more yeasty taste, and thus more flavor, but don't know if it would make it rise( which I don't want). Anybody know what would happen? When I tried DKM's Lou recipe from his June post and let it proof completely in the frig, it really came a lot closer to the denser, heavy crust I was looking for. Also I imagine the half cup semolina in his recipe helped too, being it has a higher protein percentage. His last Lou recipe in Jan. that set out for 3 to 4 hrs. rose to much and ended up more bread like. But the corn oil in that recipe gave it more flavor. Next time I'm going to meld the two recipes, use the half cup semolina with the AP flour, and refrigerator rise for 24 hrs, (which hardly rises at all) from the June recipe and the corn oil and no salt from the Jan recipe. Also oiled pan with margarine which gave it a nice brown crust and good flavor.

[buzz]

JSR--

Coffee? Who knows!

If your short kneads result in light and airy, then you're not using enough oil. Malnati's is loaded with oil!

[JSR]

Thanks for the tips on getting a denser crust. I'll try adding some semolina and doing a fridge rise next time.

Regarding the possible coffee flavor, I came up with this thought after ordering a Malnati's pizza recently ( I live in Chicago) and specifically focusing on the aroma from the crust. It seemed to have a faint bitter coffee smell and taste, among other ingredients. My first experimentation was to use all coffee for the water base, but this massively overwhelmed the flavor and did not taste good. Next I used a single serving coffee bag and waved it through the warm water about 10 to 15 times until there was a faint brown appearance and a definite aroma of coffee. I then proceeded with adding the yeast and the other ingredients. The flavor seemed to get closer to Malnati's, though I'm not totally there yet.

Of course, I have no idea if I'm right with the coffee, but I thought I'd put it out there for others to consider in our collective pursuit of the elusive Malnati's recipe. If anyone else tries this, I'd love to read about the results.

JR

[chiguy]

 Hi JSR,
 The thing about pizza making is that you can do whatever suits you're specific taste,even coffee if you like. As for that "cut it with a knife texture" you may want to consider incorporating a Pan Thinckness Factor to achieve better thickness control from one pizza to the next. I feel that the right size dough ball for a specific pan is essential for the proper taste balance.
                                                                                                         Chiguy 

[itsinthesauce]

Could the coffee flavor be similiar to using a bit of wheat flour?

[bearfootie]

Thanks for the tips on getting a denser crust. I'll try adding some semolina and doing a fridge rise next time.

Regarding the possible coffee flavor, I came up with this thought after ordering a Malnati's pizza recently ( I live in Chicago) and specifically focusing on the aroma from the crust. It seemed to have a faint bitter coffee smell and taste, among other ingredients. My first experimentation was to use all coffee for the water base, but this massively overwhelmed the flavor and did not taste good. Next I used a single serving coffee bag and waved it through the warm water about 10 to 15 times until there was a faint brown appearance and a definite aroma of coffee. I then proceeded with adding the yeast and the other ingredients. The flavor seemed to get closer to Malnati's, though I'm not totally there yet.

Of course, I have no idea if I'm right with the coffee, but I thought I'd put it out there for others to consider in our collective pursuit of the elusive Malnati's recipe. If anyone else tries this, I'd love to read about the results.

JR

Sure wish I lived back in the Chi area! Will post when I try the coffee thing which I will definitely try. Still wonder how the beer thing would work. Sure don't want my pizza to rise too much though, just want that yeasty beer flavor without the rise. Love the beer like flavor in Home Run Inn's Pizza. (which I imagine you've had) Don't like to drink it, but love to cook with it! Hmmmmm.

[integraoligist]

Been looking all over for a similar dough to Lou's and found this thread from a few years back... I just attempted Randys recipie here:

Yes it is a lot of fat and what makes it worst is half is Crisco the ultimate bad fat.  The Crisco is required to get the thick exterior crust.  Since I removed the corn meal and reduced the flour by 2 oz I did miss reducing the fat, a good point Buzz, thanks.

Rev 1  Chicago-style Deep Dish Pizza Dough
1 package SAF yeast
3 Teaspoons(1 tablespoon) sugar
9.5 oz warm water (90deg)
 3 tablespoons Crisco
3 tablespoons Clasico Olive Oil
16 oz Bread flour
2 Teaspoon salt

 
KitchenAid instructions
Put everything in the bowl except for the Crisco and mix until a ball forms on speed 1(stir speed) then knead at speed 2(knead speed) for 5 minutes.  Add Crisco and knead for 5 more minutes.  Let rest for 15 minutes then place in cooler for overnight rise.  Take out 2 hours in advance of panning and flatten into a disk. Divide the disk in half then form into balls.
When ready to cook flatten one of the balls in a 10 “pan with olive oil in the bottom until the dough covers the bottom. Use fingers from the top to pinch up the sides about ½ way up the pan and about 3/16” thick.  Bake on low rack in oven preheated to 450F for 20 minutes or more.

Has anyone made this? and if so, did you have any issues?   I had to add an additional cup of flour to start creating a ball of dough otherwise it just stuck to the bowl.

As this is the first recipie i've seen that uses Crisco, (as I have tried other recipies and none seem to be even close to Lou's of Ginos East)  using Crisco intregues me.

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!

[kurt72]

Here it is.

Chicago-style Deep Dish Pizza Dough

11/2 cups warm water
1/2 tablespoon active dry yeast
1/2 tablespoon sugar
3 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1/2 cup semolina flour
1/2 cup shortening
1 teaspoon salt

Mix water, yeast & sugar.  Let sit for 5 minutes

Using dough hook on mixer add shortening, 2 cups of the AP flour and salt then mix for 5 minutes.  Add 1 more cup of AP flour and the semolina flour, mix until a dough ball is formed.  Add the remaining 1/2 of AP flour as needed.  Dough should be wet but shouldn't stick to your hands.

Put in frig to rise over night.  Take out about 2 - 3 hours before use.

Preheat oven to 500 degrees 30 minutes before baking.

Well oil a 15” deep dish pizza pan with classic olive oil (DON’T use a non-stick spray).  Pat out dough in the pan and top.

Bake about 15 minutes.

The results

The crust had a nice and rich flavor and was flaky (according to my wife).  The oil really helps crisp up the bottom of the crust.

I used plain Crisco.

If you can’t wait overnight, double the yeast.  But be warned you will not get the same flavor for the crust.  In that case you may want to use a butter flavored shortening.

If anyone else tries this, let me know.  I would love to hear about it.

DKM

i tried this. double the yeast and using Butter Flavored Crisco didn't seem to give me good results. next time i will use less yeast, and let it sit in the fridge overnight. next pie i make, i will post the results.