Author Topic: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?  (Read 381 times)

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Offline emma

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Hi there!

I joined this community a few hours ago and have been pouring over the forums ever since.  Thank you to everyone who has contributed time and energy here - it is a wealth of information - so much that I'm having trouble figuring out where to begin if I'd like to try making/using an Ischia starter. My primary aim in attempting this at home is to create complex flavour and texture similar to the Neopolitan style pizza they serve at my favourite pizza place in Toronto http://pizzerialibretto.com/

I was hoping that someone here could steer me to a resource or posting in this forum that would help me to figure out a calculation for the dough in relation to my pizza stone.  I'd like the pizzas to be as thin as possible.  I found the Craig's recipe and spreadsheet, and want to try using them.  I admit that math is definitely not my strong suit so I apologize ahead of time if my questions are stupid, but I was hoping to find a functionality similar to the Lehman calculator where I could input the size of my pizza stone?  I have no idea how to interpret the percentages posted.  I'm not sure what to input on Craig's spreadsheet in terms of size and quantity.  I'd like to make enough dough for two pizzas to fit my 14" x 16" stone.

I'd like to try to make pizza in a week so there is time to get the sourdough culture started.  I plan to follow the advice posted by a reviewer on amazon who suggested that the cultures could be activated in my oven with the light on in a rubbermaid container.  Has anyone tried this method?  The same reviewer said that the culture could be stored in a "loosely covered" mason jar.  I'm wondering how others store it if not sealed properly with a mason lid?

I have a brand new Whirlpool gas range with a convection option that I can get to 500F.  I've ordered a Old Stone Oven 14-Inch by 16-Inch Baking Stone and a Kitchen Supply 14-Inch x 16-Inch Aluminum Pizza Peel.  I have a Kitchen Aid mixer and plan to use Caputo blue bag flour and Diamond Kosher Salt.  I'm going to pick up a digital scale at Costco this week.  Is it safe to say I'll have everything I need in terms of being able to pull this off?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.  Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Emma

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 10:23:29 PM »
Hi Emma....welcome to the forum.  :chef:

Hate to tell you but you are going to need about 400 degrees more heat for good NP pie so my suggestion would be to add a Blackstone oven to your shopping list.   You should read a little further in Craig's awesome thread too.
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Offline spacetrucker

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 08:23:44 PM »
Emma,
i'm new to all this too... I did lots of reading, about a weeks worth before I tried my own pizza's in the oven in the house, the first two did pretty good, pizza number three stuck to the peel and splattered all over the oven door and bottom of the oven, made a terrible mess to say it nicely :-D, so yes the black stone is the best we could come up with, pizza number 8 stuck and went into the black stone half up and half down so it became a calzone of sorts.... pizzas 11 and 12 we forgot the tomato sauce :-D so yes the black stone will at least allow you to do your learning outside where the bbq pits are.... on the math the stone length times the width times the thickness will give you the area of dough you need to make, I didn't know bakers % math either, (I use electronics math) so another week of learning on the math and I can figure the dough sizes and hydration rates. Good luck, welcome to the fun and there is a lot of folks on here that have the knowledge to help us learn.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 08:52:46 PM »
Seconding what Bob said, home ovens by and large can't make Neapolitan without serious modifications that will void your warranty and probably your home insurance too. This is not to say that the equipment you have can't make a great pie - it can - though I wouldn't suggest buying Caputo flour. Regular AP or bread flour will work much better in your home oven.

I would suggest this recipe. It's my favorite for a home oven: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,33831.0.html
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 10:09:20 PM »
Hi Emma,

Without knowing your previous baking experience, it seems like you're attempting to run a marathon without ever training for a 5k run. 

Have you used starters before?  If not, I'd suggest making two 11 or 12-inch pizzas (smaller pizzas are easy to launch) using King Arthur Bread Flour with instant or active dry yeast.  Craig's Johnny clone is terrific (I've made a couple), but a "direct mix" pizza (no preferments) is easier for a beginner.

The Lehmann calculator will help to scale any dough formulation.  In terms of your textural goals, I think you would be pleased with a dry yeast pizza fermented at room temperature for at least 8-hours, but 24-hours is even better.  About half of my pizzas are room temp sourdough and the other are room-temp dry yeast.  Both are reasonably close in texture and even taste. Craig's yeast chart will help you get  the yeast quantity very close, if not perfect. 

Getting the dough stretched thin takes a little skill. It's not rocket science nor do you have to channel your inner Italian grandmother, but it's not likely that you're going to nail it your first time out.
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Offline emma

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 07:44:27 PM »
Thank you all for taking the time to respond!  Special thanks to Spacetrucker for the encouragement and jsaras for the cautionary advice!  I'm afraid that a Blackstone oven is out of the question for me given my current living situation  :(

Fingers crossed - as I know the preferments may be more of a challenge, but I want to try the recipe that Craig provided below - Johnny’s clone - (THANK YOU!) for the dough. Since my stone is also 14" - can I simply double it in order to make 2?  Jsaras - you mentioned that Craig also had a yeast chart - can you point me at that resource?

In any case I do have a few more questions as I get ready to make pizzas with my family this weekend:
1) I noticed that you all seem to make a bunch of dough at once.  How long does it last after you have fermented it?
2) I bought a digital kitchen scale today. It says it reads in 0.10 oz/1.00 g. increments. Saying that, here's what I plan to do with the instructions provided:

Preferment:
100g flour
100g water
2.2 grains IDY (1 grain = 1/7000lb – measured with a reloading scale)
***Should this read 2.2 GRAMS?  If yes, a slight problem given my scale only measures in 1.00 g. increments.  I'll just throw a bit more on... ???

Added to the preferment:
148g flour
49g water
6g salt
5g vegetable oil


When I ran the Johnny's clone percentages through the Lehmann dough calculator, I came up with the following (based on 2 balls of dough):

Flour (100%):    577.41 g  |  20.37 oz | 1.27 lbs
Water (60%):    346.45 g  |  12.22 oz | 0.76 lbs
ADY (0.57%):    3.29 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (2.4%):    13.86 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
Oil (2.0%):    11.55 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.57 tsp | 0.86 tbsp
Total (164.97%):   952.56 g | 33.6 oz | 2.1 lbs | TF = 0.075
Single Ball:   476.28 g | 16.8 oz | 1.05 lbs


Does this look alright?

3) So, my scale has an add and weigh TARE option.  I'm thinking that will allow me to weigh the cup/bowl first, reset, and then add the ingredients?

4) I bought the King Arthur Bread Flour but could not find instant vs. active dry yeast, although I did find Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Highly Active Yeast - is this suitable?

5) Jsaras - I just bought some fresh basil (and an interesting freeze dried product) so that I can try out the quick microwave sauce that I saw you provide to another poster.  I do not own a microwave, but was thinking I could just heat it up super quick to avoid overcooking?

6) I need to pick up the rubbermaid 6.2 cup containers still for the fermenting.  You need to lightly oil them first, correct?

7) I thought I would follow the mixing and kneading instructions posted in Craig's Neopolitan recipe unless anyone has another suggestion?

8) I'll use parchment paper on my pizza peel to make things easier unless that is a total no no?

9) Unfortunately, my oven reduces cook temp automatically when set to convection >:(  Should I just use the regular bake function and set to 500?

10) Finally, where should I position the pizza stone in the oven?

Thanks to all for the help once again!  I'm thinking I should prepare the dough on Thursday so we can enjoy pizza on Saturday.

Offline emma

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 08:29:16 PM »
Ooops!  I just saw that I had the wrong yeast type and wrong salt type in the calculator.  Here is what the results are now:

Flour (100%):    577.41 g  |  20.37 oz | 1.27 lbs
Water (60%):    346.45 g  |  12.22 oz | 0.76 lbs
IDY (0.57%):    3.29 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Salt (2.4%):    13.86 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.08 tsp | 1.36 tbsp
Oil (2.0%):    11.55 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.57 tsp | 0.86 tbsp
Total (164.97%):   952.56 g | 33.6 oz | 2.1 lbs | TF = 0.075
Single Ball:   476.28 g | 16.8 oz | 1.05 lbs


Once again, still hoping for feedback on my previous response.

Thanks all!

Offline jsaras

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 11:37:20 AM »
Hi Emma,

Craig's yeast quantity is in fact in "grains".  You may need to get an additional scale that is capable of weighing .01g such as this one to
measure small amounts of yeast: http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-0-01g-Digital-Scale/dp/B0012LOQUQ/?tag=pizzamaking-20

There is an alternative way to create a liquid solution with the yeast dissolved in it that will also work in the absence of such a scale.  I'll leave that to Craig to explain the details as to how to do that.

With or without a microwave, if you're using fresh basil in a sauce, just add it directly to the tomatoes with whatever salt, sugar or pepper that may or may not be in your particular sauce.

In the absence  of a microwave, I'd probably opt for a more traditional method of making sauce that involves no cooking whatsoever.  You can certainly try heating up some oil in a frying pan and then adding one or two TB of the heated oil the spices in a coffee mug.     

Craig's yeast chart can be found here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.0.html

The answer to your question regarding Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Highly Active Yeast can be found at Reply 3 on this thread:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1799.0.html
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Offline jsaras

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2015, 11:56:46 AM »
I've attached a variation of member November's "Golden Chalice Dough" which was designed to be flour agnostic that you can make at a later date. (amounts for two 12-inch pizzas).  The given active dry yeast quantity assumes a 70 degree F room temperature for 24 hours.  You can make adjustments for that using the yeast chart.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a dough calculator if you want to try out the Ischia starter?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2015, 07:07:58 PM »
Ooops!  I just saw that I had the wrong yeast type and wrong salt type in the calculator.  Here is what the results are now:

Flour (100%):    577.41 g  |  20.37 oz | 1.27 lbs
Water (60%):    346.45 g  |  12.22 oz | 0.76 lbs
IDY (0.57%):    3.29 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Salt (2.4%):    13.86 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.08 tsp | 1.36 tbsp
Oil (2.0%):    11.55 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.57 tsp | 0.86 tbsp
Total (164.97%):   952.56 g | 33.6 oz | 2.1 lbs | TF = 0.075
Single Ball:   476.28 g | 16.8 oz | 1.05 lbs


Once again, still hoping for feedback on my previous response.

Thanks all!

Your yeast is high by a factor of 10X. It should be 0.057% ~ 0.33g in your formula above.

The simplest way to measure a tiny amount of yeast like this without an accurate scale is to measure 99.0g water and add 1.0g IDY and dissolve/mix thoroughly, then use 33g of the mixture. Be sure to lower your water by 33g to make up for the water you add with the yeast.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline emma

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THANK YOU Jsaras & Craig for taking the time to reply.

Jsaras: I went out and bought the SAF Instant Dry yeast as recommended.  I also found the Pomi strained tomatoes.  I think I'll just put the fresh basil on top of the tomatoes and add a bit of salt and fresh ground red pepper flakes.  Thank you for posting that alternate dough recipe.  Does flour agnostic mean that I could use that recipe with the Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Highly Active Yeast that I already bought? I am going to order the scale you recommended - thank you!

Craig: I followed your advice for the 99.0g water and add 1.0g IDY mixture.  We made two identical batches last night using the Johnny's clone recipe (to avoid dealing with the dough calculator and not have to divide the dough).  I didn't have vegetable oil and had remembered reading somewhere here that EVOO was not recommended to add to the dough so I used grapeseed oil - I hope that is okay?  I purchased the two rubbermaid containers and used them for the preferment.  My house is pretty chilly (radiators set to 65F) so put the sealed containers into the oven with the light on overnight.  The preferment doubled in size - hopefully that was what was supposed to happen.  I am attaching pictures of the preferment after 13 hours and of the dough after adding the additional ingredients this morning. 

This morning we added the additional ingredients to the preferment using my KA to mix the dough as briefly as possible (about 60 seconds or so).  Then I kneaded by hand (again as briefly as possible to fully combine ingredients).  The mixture did feel a bit dry, but all the flour was eventually absorbed.  Since we are planning to make the pizzas tonight, I set the dough back into the containers and popped them back into the oven with the light on.  I thought I should leave them there until we are ready to make the pizzas tonight.  Does this sound like a good idea?  I feel like the longer I can let the dough sit at/around room temperature, the better?

So in about 6 hours, I am planning to form the pizzas onto my metal peel with parchment.  Do I need to do another knead before forming? After forming I was going to slide them onto my preheated pizza stone, removing the parchment after 3 minutes or so (to help with browning).  I noticed you used cheese before sauce in the Johnny's clone recipe so we will try that method as well.  Picked up Grande Fior di Latte fresh mozzarella yesterday and plan to hand pull it then add few slices of thinly sliced italian smoked meat, olives, and mushrooms.

Please have a look at the pictures of the dough and let me know if I'm on the right track?

Is there a video online somewhere that you generally recommend watching for learning how to open the dough and form the pizzas?  I don't have a roller so was planning to try and do this by hand.

Thanks again for all of your help!


Offline jsaras

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"Flour agnostic" refers to being able to use it with any flour, all-purpose flour, bread flour, etc.

Grapeseed oil is perfectly fine. It's essentially flavorless. 

Olive oil would have been fine as well.  Tom Lehmann's aversion to olive oil is due to it's relatively high price compared to soybean oil (a.k.a. salad oil and vegetable oil) and some may not like the flavor notes from  olive oil. 

I use avocado oil and I think it's terrific for any baking application.

I personally can't stand the flavor of canola oil, so I avoid it for that reason.
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