Author Topic: Dough Problems Caputo flour  (Read 6893 times)

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Offline GERRY

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Dough Problems Caputo flour
« on: August 14, 2006, 11:09:25 AM »
I have been making pizza for a few years.  I recently got my hands on some of the Caputo flour(blue farino 00).  I cook on a propane grill, 650 degrees, kettle shaped grill.  Always had great results with dough bought from a local pizzeria.
I have been following the recipe that came with the flour.

-500 g flour
-325 g h2o 95 degrees
-2 tsp salt
-2 tsp ADY
 
dissolve yeast in h20 let sit for 5 min, mix most flour with h20 and salt in KA stand mixer add rest of flour while mixing with paddle attachment , when it comes together let rest for 5 min, mix with dough hook for 9 min low speed, faster, low speed.
let rise 90 minutes room temp, then fridge for 24, then room temp for 3 hrs, divide, round, rise for 1 hr then cook.
Now the recipe says it makes four 12 inch pizzas. I like larger ones so i have been making two pizzas per recipe, about 17-18 inches.  The crust tastes great but it is not airy at all. It doesn't rise or a very minimal rise while cooking. Also it does not brown really. (no sugar in recipe?) 
Is my grill not hot enough to use this recipe? I have read that for these doughs you really need the 800+ of a wood oven.
How can I modify the recipe to work with what I have? no brick oven
would a blend of regular bread flour and caputo better suit my needs. I have tried adding 1TBL of olive oil to no real improvement.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2006, 02:52:04 PM »
GERRY,

It isn't entirely clear from your description which Caputo flour you are using--the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour or the Caputo Extra Blu--or possibly some other. If you can describe the bag (the color and pictures) or indicate where you got the flour, that might help.

I converted the recipe you used to baker's percents and, if you are using 325 grams of water for 500 grams of flour, that is a hydration of 65%. That would be high for any of the Caputo 00 flours, even the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour which is fairly high in protein/gluten and the one that most of the members use to make Neapolitan style doughs. If you were able to achieve that hydration level, you would most likely require an oven that can deliver more heat than your oven to get the proper combination of crust softness and color.

The rest of the dough formulation looks in order. I am not familiar with your particular oven situation and how heat is delivered to the top and bottom of your pizzas, but if you bake the pizzas long enough to have a nice brown crust color, you are likely to get a crust that is too crispy and almost cracker-like, especially with a thickness factor of 0.066, which itself is on the thin side. 

Without knowing more, I would be inclined to lower the hydration to about 60-62% (300-310 grams of water), and maybe use a thicker dough. That means a smaller pizza size than you have been making. Adding the olive oil might also be a good idea, although perhaps you can experiment with that aspect once you see the results from using the lower hydration and thicker crust. At this point I wouldn't advocate using sugar in the dough, but you might brush the rim of the unbaked pizza dough with oil to get more color in the finished crust as the pizza bakes. In due course, you may consider adding a bit of bread flour to achieve better browning, but that will depend in part on which 00 flour you are using.

Peter


Offline GERRY

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2006, 03:23:38 PM »
Thank you Peter for your response. It is not the pizza flour by caputo. It has numerous baked goods on the label I purchased 5 -2.2# bags from Forno Bravo. It is Dark Blue in color. The oven is the same structure as a Weber kettle. It has a circular burner and baffles the direct the heat along the perimeter and is deflected down by the dome.  I always brush the crust with olive oil. The browning is really not my concern @ this point. I am more concentrated on the proper crumb and texture to the crust.  So according to your reply if I lower the water and start with a smaller, thicker pie to begin with my results should improve. Thanks again     

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2006, 03:32:27 PM »
Gerry,

I am pretty certain you have the Caputo Extra Blu. That also confirms my earlier advice about lowering the hydration. Give the recommendations I made a try and see what happens. In the meantime, maybe some one of our other members familiar with your grill can step forward with their recommendations.

Good luck, and please report back with your results.

Peter

Offline ebpizza

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2006, 04:26:04 PM »
gerry:

take a look at http://www.molinocaputo.it/#
which bag did it look like?

Offline GERRY

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2006, 04:40:20 PM »
Front row smallest bag on the page. farina on front Confezioni 1kg bag. Not the extra blu or pizzeria flour.

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2006, 04:50:53 PM »
GERRY,

After ebpizza posted, I went to the Forno Bravo website and, using the Microsoft magnifier, I could see the "Farina" lettering on the bag. I had been told (possibly by the importer) that Forno Bravo was selling the Extra Blu. I will try to confirm.

I don't have the specs for the Confezioni flour, but it shouldn't change the recommendations I gave you earlier, although you might not need quite as much water.

Thanks, ebpizza, for raising the issue.

Peter


Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2006, 08:23:14 PM »
After taking a brief look at your formula, the salt might be a bit high. But I think your biggest problem is lack of fermentation time. 90 minutes is not a lot of time. If you want to push a dough to rise faster, you can increase the yeast, and or the finished dough temperature. Fermentation gives color, flavor and texture. You could also use a preferment that would cut your rising time down and would give you the flavor and texture you are looking for.

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2006, 08:55:47 PM »
Evelyne,

As you will see from this link, http://www.fornobravo.com/PDF/Using-caputo-tipo00.pdf, GERRY apparently used a modification of the dough formulation recited there and actually gave his dough more fermentation time than called for in the instructions. I estimate that the salt is about 2.2% by weight of flour. That is in line with typical amounts used for Neapolitan doughs. Some even go as high as 2.7% and, on rare occasion, even a bit higher.

As noted earlier, it's not entirely clear which Caputo flour GERRY was using, but if it was a "weak" one, it could have a rated fermentation time of 3-5 hours at room temperature. That would be consistent with the instructions given in the recipe, although GERRY may have changed the rules when he apparently chose to use his own methods for making and managing his dough rather than the ones accompanying the recipe. I only discovered those changes after tracking down the recipe at the Forno Bravo site after my earlier posts.

Peter

Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2006, 01:04:19 PM »
Yikes! I completely spaced on the rest of the sentance after letting the dough initially rise for 90 minutes--I didn't see the rest of the fermentation time devoted to it. I guess that's what happens when I'm trying to do two things at once. I was talking about attempting to rise the dough within 90 minutes...duh

Never mind! :-[


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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2006, 01:11:04 PM »
To clarify matters on the “Confezioni” flour, yesterday I sent an email to the importer asking for help. In the meantime, I did some extensive online research trying to find information on the Confezioni flour. What puzzled me when I did this is that I could not find the name “Confezioni” on actual bags of flour, even at the Antico Molino Caputo website, where the term was used but not on the bags of flour shown. This led me to suspect that the flour in the Confezioni bags is really Extra Blu. Also, previously, James of Forno Bravo referred to the Caputo “blue” Tipo 00 as the flour offered in the small bags (they also sell the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in the large bags) through the Forno Bravo website.

This morning, I received confirmation of the above from the importer, as quoted here:

“Confezione” means “packaging” in Italian. “Confezione di 1kg” translates to “2.2lb packages”. You are 100% correct that the flour (“farina” in Italian) in the bags is extra blu. No difference.

So, to summarize, what is sold in the small blue bags at Forno Bravo and cuisineus.com with the term "Farina" on the bags, and in larger blue "Farina" bags elsewhere, is Extra Blu. The sample that Guy (PizzaBrewer) received (see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2299.msg20424.html#msg20424) is also Extra Blu. The only Caputo 00 flours sold for pizza applications in the U.S. are the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, the Extra Blu and the Caputo Red. As previously mentioned, there is also a Caputo pasta/gnocchi flour sold in the U.S. To the best of my knowledge, the only place selling the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in small bags (5 lb.) is PennMac, at pennmac.com.

I was also alerted by the importer to the fact that there is another company, in Chicago, called WISCON, that apparently owns a trademark on the brand “Caputo” under which they pack cheese and some other items. It appears that they are trying to capitalize on the Antico Molino Caputo success with their flours and have imported a “cheap alternative” (the importer’s words) from Italy under the brand “Caputo”. To avoid confusion, Antico Molino Caputo is using a new logo on their flours: “Antico Molino Napoli—produced by ANTIMO CAPUTO srl”.

I hope I have finally straightened out this matter.

Peter

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2006, 01:26:13 PM »
Knowing that we have some members fluent in Italian, to be on the safe side I thought I would get a translation of the Italian term "Confezioni". According to the Google translator, it is "confection". I know that the Extra Blu can also be used for cakes and other baked goods, so that seems to be consistent with the expression "ideale per pizze e dolce" that James of FornoBravo used to describe the "blue" flour.

Peter

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2006, 04:05:56 PM »
Hi Gerry,
     i used the exact recipe you used above and had great results infact I had too much of big holes.This recipe posted for caputo flour in forno bravo net is strickly for wood burning ovens.I tried using this same blue flour 1 kilo bag tipo 00 before with numerous other recipe some good and some not so good.ofcourse always using my oven until I finally gave up and built an oven at my backyard.Now with the caputo flour I make great pizzas.So maybe the reason for not having big holes is due to lack of heat.This flour is really meant for high temperature and minimuim fermantation of atleast more than an hour.I am not an expert but the pictures show a big improvement just using high temperature oven.
Remoise

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2006, 04:30:45 PM »
Hi Peter,
I used the exact recipe above which is posted in the website of forno bravo.my question is how do i get rid of those large holes.should I hand stretch the dough much more?large holes are fine but these are a bit too large?I used wood burning oven at 900 ,caputo flour.Bulk fermentation 3 hours and devided and reshaped into 4 balls and again left to rise another 2 hours.i briefly hand stretch the dough and slid it in the oven and cooked for 3 minutes
the crust was light and airy and the cornicione was chewy.
remoise

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2006, 05:40:40 PM »
REMOISE,

Many people would die to get bubbles like that.

To analyze your situation, it might help to know what the potential causes are. I have stated them before elsewhere but I will repeat them here for convenience. Usually, the main causes of bubbling are 1) underfermentation or overfermentation of the dough (with underfermentation being the more common); 2) using dough that is too cold at the time of shaping; 3) using too little or too much yeast (with too much being more common): 4) using incorrect or insufficient docking; and 5) using an oven temperature that is too high, or some other oven-related problem. Of course, any combination of these will also produce the tendency to bubbling. And some dough formulations are just more prone to bubbling than others.

In your case, I think we can immediately rule out reasons 2 and 4 since you used only room-temperature fermentation and you did not use a docking tool. Among the remaining possibilities, I would tend to put my finger on reason 3, too much yeast. I estimate that the amount of ADY you used, 2 t., is around 1.5% by weight of flour. That is quite high. Most Neapolitan dough formulations call for very little yeast coupled with a long room-temperature fermentation. If you are using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, rather than the Caputo Extra Blue, you should be able to use a much smaller amount of yeast and a much longer room temperature fermentation, up to a total of about 8-12 hours. That combination should not only develop better flavor in the finished crust but the crust will have a better texture and be less prone to bubbling, even in a high-temperature oven such as you are using. If you are using the Caputo Extra Blu, the fermentation period should be much shorter, maybe 3-5 hours at room temperature, because that is the application for which the flour was formulated. Again, you don’t need as much yeast as you used.

I think I would cut the ADY back to about 0.4%, which is a bit more than 1/2 t. I previously suggested to GERRY that the amount of water also be scaled back. This should also reduce the rate of fermentation (a high hydration dough ferments faster than a low hydration dough), and yield a less porous crumb. I ran the numbers based on the 0.4% ADY through the new Dough Calculating Tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, using 0.0657 for the thickness factor and, for four dough balls, I got the following:

Flour (100%):           502.67 g  |  17.73 oz | 1.11 lbs
Water (65%):           326.73 g  |  11.52 oz | 0.72 lbs
Oil (0%):                   0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Salt (2.23%):            11.21 g | 0.4 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
ADY (.4%):                2.01 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Sugar (0%):              0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (167.63%):      842.62 g | 29.72 oz | 1.86 lbs
Single Ball:                210.65 g | 7.43 oz | 0.46 lbs.

This formulation assumes 65% hydration. We can change the number easily depending on what kind of flour you actually used. In fact, with the new dough calculating tool, you should now be able to do the number crunching yourself. I will, of course, help if you need it.

Peter

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2006, 03:51:06 AM »
Hi Peter,
     wow that was helpful Iam really greatful for the reply . thanks so much that was so helpful.Too much yeast is the culprit.The oven too was pretty hot.cooked the pie for 3 minutes and the sides were charred.I am still learning to use my wood burning oven and learning more about the dough.One thing for sure caputo flour and wood burning oven does not like paper thin crust.It came out like a cracker.I  am now really careful not to hand stretch the dough to much or also too thick.next time I will cut back on the yeast.THANKS AGAIN.

REMOISE
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 12:52:18 PM by REMOISE »

Offline GERRY

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2006, 10:12:53 AM »
Tried again this weekend with pretty much the same results.  I followed my abovementioned methods with 2 deviations: I lowered the h20 to 300 grams and after the 90 min counter rise I divided the dough, rounded into balls and the fridge for 24 hrs before proceding as described.  The crust did not really rise at all. I also only stretched the dough out to form 12-13 inch pizza.  Is this just the nature of the dough when it is not cooked in a traditional brick oven? Should I abandon the overnight in the fridge and allow a room temp rise and cook the same day? The crust tastes great it just does not spring in the oven like I am used to and hope for. Any help is always appreciated.   

Offline dinks

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 11:47:32 AM »
GERRY:
  Good morning to you. I have read your last post with interest & I hope you do not mind if I suggest to you just 2 items to you. First you must increase the yeast amount to a bare minimum, 1 tesp & you can increase the hydration to 62%.
Gerry my friend, Do not expext oven spring in a thin crust pizza.
   Good luck to you & have a nice day my friend.

  ~DINKS. :pizza:

Offline REMOISE

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Re: Dough Problems Caputo flour
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 03:57:52 PM »
Hi Gerry,
     yes i too abandoned doing thin crust pizza with napolitan recipe and caputo flour.This methode is meant for a thicker crust especially towards the outer crust.If you over rise the dough it too will collapse and turn into a flat thin cracker crust;be careful when hand streching and not to handle the dough too much you will kill all the air that keeps the dough fluffy and makes all the large holes in the cornicione.act like you are holding a bubble from a bath tub when handling the dough.This is how thick a crust i do.I am not sure it is clear.Hope this helps.
Remoise
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 04:01:34 PM by REMOISE »


 

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