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Offline pizzanyc

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interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« on: August 16, 2006, 08:05:27 PM »
do you think the following recipe will produce a nice thin neopolitan style pizza margherita? if not, please point the way to a good recipe. thanks. My caputo flour just arrived in the mail today and i need a good recipe to use it for a 15 or 16 inch pizza.


14 ounces flour (recommende: 00)
1 tablespoon extra-virgin olive oil
Pinch sea salt
1 ounce fresh yeast
1 1/4 cups tepid water
Topping, recipe follows

Preheat oven to 425 degrees F.
Shape flour into a mound and make an indentation on the top. Pour the oil into the indentation and add the salt. Melt the yeast in a cup of tepid water and pour it into the middle. Start kneading the dough with your hands until all the yeast is absorbed and the dough feels elastic, firm, and looks shiny. See Cook's note*.

Roll it into a ball, sprinkle with flour and place in a bowl. Make a cross on the top. Cover with a cloth and leave it to rise in a warm place for about 1 hour in winter and 30 minutes in summer.

Stretch the dough and then roll it out with a rolling pin on a floury surface, until it is about 1/4-inch thick. Cover the surface of a baking sheet with 1 tablespoon of oil. Sprinkle with sea salt. Place dough on baking sheet and press the edges in firmly with your fingers. Add tomatoes, reserving a little of the juice, and drizzle with olive oil. Cook for 10 minutes. Remove from oven and add chopped mozzarella. Tear the remaining basil leaves and scatter over mozzarella. Drizzle with olive oil. Sprinkle with Parmesan and the rest of the tomato juice. Cook for 5 minutes. Eat immediately.

*Cook's note: add more water if dough seems too dry.


Topping:
1 pound pendula tomatoes or 2 1/2 cups fresh tomato sauce
1 clove garlic, crushed in garlic press
Extra-virgin olive oil, plus more for drizzling
Salt
10 ounces Buffalo mozzarella, roughly chopped, see Cook's note*
12 basil leaves
1 cup Parmesan, optional

Cut the tomatoes in half. As you drop them into a medium-sized bowl squeeze them with your hands so that the juice comes out. Add garlic, olive oil, salt, and half the basil leaves. Leave to marinate while the dough rises.
*Cook's note: We find that it's better to use mozzarella which is 2 days old, because it's less watery.

Yield: 6 servings
Preparation time: 10 minutes




Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 11:03:33 AM »
I would not try this recipe... As I've said, these variations that add all the flour first, don't autolyse and use too much yeast (this is WAY too much) are a waste of time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 12:52:31 PM »
I tried this recipe once, especially after Tyler Florence said on the TV segment that it was the best pizza he had ever had, or something to similar effect. In my case, I used the King Arthur 00 "clone" flour and the results were so poor that it prompted me to send an email to King Arthur to complain about the flour. I never did try the recipe again after discovering "real" 00 flours but looking at the recipe now I would be inclined to agree with Jeff. You will also note that the recipe doesn't call for any salt in the dough, only a pinch for the pan. Some users of 00 flour think it has a naturally "salty" taste, and maybe Signora Raffone was one such person. BTW, one ounce of fresh yeast as called for in the recipe is about 1 1/2 of one of the Fleischmann's fresh yeast cubes as sold in the supermarket. For 14 ounces of flour, that is extremely high in my opinion even for a short term dough. That's about 7 percent by weight of flour. Along with no salt in the dough itself to restrain fermentation, that is why the dough can rise in 30 minutes in the summer.

The most interesting part of the recipe for me turned out to be the use of the cross in the dough. I don't know if it was for a practical reason (to be able to tell when the dough had risen enough by the expansion of the cross in the middle of the dough) or whether it was for divine intervention. Either way, I don't think I would use the recipe.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 12:54:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 03:55:41 PM »
Yeah, I didn't even notice the salt missing.

pizzanyc, I'm getting the sense that you are a trying to find a short cut here.  Don't get the sense that we are rejecting all your attempts... it's the flour, water, salt and yeast that are the problem here, not us... They are just not so forgiving.

I know that my site is TOO detailed for some and can be a little intimidating. But you don't have do to 100% of it to get the benefits. If you read through is slowly, you should be able to glean a lot out of it. For now, forget the part about the sourdough culture, the high temp oven and the sauce, etc.. Just focus primarily on the autolyze and wet kneading technique along with the basic formula of bread flour, water 62%, salt 2% and yeast (a tiny amount, like 1/8 teaspoon).  If you autolyze and wet knead properly, you will see instantly that this dough has a different feel, spreads like butter and tastes better than these shortcut recipes do.

Jeff

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 05:51:19 PM »
Yeah, I didn't even notice the salt missing.

pizzanyc, I'm getting the sense that you are a trying to find a short cut here.† Don't get the sense that we are rejecting all your attempts... it's the flour, water, salt and yeast that are the problem here, not us... They are just not so forgiving.

I know that my site is TOO detailed for some and can be a little intimidating. But you don't have do to 100% of it to get the benefits. If you read through is slowly, you should be able to glean a lot out of it. For now, forget the part about the sourdough culture, the high temp oven and the sauce, etc.. Just focus primarily on the autolyze and wet kneading technique along with the basic formula of bread flour, water 62%, salt 2% and yeast (a tiny amount, like 1/8 teaspoon).† If you autolyze and wet knead properly, you will see instantly that this dough has a different feel, spreads like butter and tastes better than these shortcut recipes do.

Jeff

since i have a very tiny kitchen with practically no space in the refridgerator that i share with other people. i can't exactly make sour dough in there. Sour dough takes a lot of time from what i've heard. you feed it and pour half of it out everytime from what i heard so it would be too time consuming for my first try and my fresh yeast is about to expire, so i can't take the time to make sour dough although i really wish i could take the time to make it. jeff, your site is amazing, but it's a little confusing for a novice baker who doesn't understand baker's percentages and etc and terms like autolysing. etc.  For my first attempt at using caputo flour, i just want to get started using it, but at the same time i don't want to waste it. I've made pizza with high gluten flour before following instructions from "the art of pizza making by dominick angelis" and their recipe works fine for high gluten (noticed that with high gluten putting the dough in the fridge for 24 hours makes the dough much easier to stretch. So i was wondering is it the same case with 00 caputo or is it different? what's the standard procedure with caputo flour , is it different from high gluten? let me know. thanks.

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 06:20:31 PM »
LOL... you are a difficult case.... I know that you don't know the terms, but I define them...  Thanks for the nice words about my site. Have patience. You can't learn this all in one shot.

Forget the sourdough for now.

The only difference with caputo is that you are going to put more flour in than I said.  If you put in number i gave you, it will still be wet. It's ok, just keep adding flour until it dries out, just add a little at a time near the end.

The strechability of the dough is affected 90% by the use of autolyse and making the dough very wet. All other factors combined, like putting it in the fridge, the temp of the water when you start, etc. these add up to the other 10%. So don't worrry about it. Just get the mixing right. That's the most important thing.

Jeff

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 07:58:28 PM »
LOL... you are a difficult case.... I know that you don't know the terms, but I define them...† Thanks for the nice words about my site. Have patience. You can't learn this all in one shot.

Forget the sourdough for now.

The only difference with caputo is that you are going to put more flour in than I said.† If you put in number i gave you, it will still be wet. It's ok, just keep adding flour until it dries out, just add a little at a time near the end.

The strechability of the dough is affected 90% by the use of autolyse and making the dough very wet. All other factors combined, like putting it in the fridge, the temp of the water when you start, etc. these add up to the other 10%. So don't worrry about it. Just get the mixing right. That's the most important thing.

Jeff

the numbers you gave me were:

580 grams caputo flour
360 grams water (does it have to be a specific temperature?) and does it have to be filtered? if so, what's the effect of non filtered water?
salt-14 grams-kosher or sea
fresh yeast - 1 gram

(to save me the time of weighing all these ingredients on the scale, can you tell me how much the grams would be in cups and tablespoons or teaspoons for the salt and yeast? )

so 580 grams of caputo is not enough, it would be too wet and sticky? so i would just gradually add a little bit more until it doesn't stick to my hand? and comes together to form a dough ball in the mixer? is this correct?

so far:
I know you have to autolyse for 20 minutes with 75% of the flour and all water just sitting in the mixer covered with a cloth probably
after the 20 minutes, i guess you add the yeast and then gradually mix in the salt.

Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes or until completely blended. At this stage you should have a mix that is drier  than a batter, but wetter  than a dough. Closer to batter probably.
after the 2 minutes of mixing,
Cover with cloth and Let it rest for 20 minutes again.

then  Wet Knead the dough

Start Mixing on Low speed for 8 minutes. 5 minutes into it start adding the remaining 25% of flour gradually.

Let it rest for 15-20 minutes.
after that, do a window pane test and if you can see through it, i guess it's ready to take out and let it rise for like an hour?

after that, you put it in the fridge and retard the dough with slow fermentation for 24 hour to make the dough more extensible and develop the flavor? ????



Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 10:26:50 PM »
(to save me the time of weighing all these ingredients on the scale, can you tell me how much the grams would be in cups and tablespoons or teaspoons for the salt and yeast? )
LMAO..... Why don't you save me some time and weigh it...  Salt: 2 teaspoons, yeast 1/8 teaspoon.

If not filtered water, use bottled water, preferably Dasani.

As I said, the kneading process makes it more extensible, not the way it is risen. The cold rise is for flavor.

Jeff


« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 10:34:24 PM by varasano »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 11:53:05 PM »
pizzanyc,

I have been playing around with the new Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and decided to plug in the numbers for the dough formulation you plan to use. I calculated all of the baker’s percents for the formulation and assumed that you would be making 3 dough balls, each of which would be for a 13” pizza, as specified by Jeff at his website. From the individual dough ball weight and pizza size, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.0846. What I got for results using the tool is the following:

Flour (100%):           579.93 g  |  20.46 oz | 1.28 lbs
Water (62.1%):        360.14 g  |  12.7 oz | 0.79 lbs
Oil (0%):                   0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Salt (2.41%):            13.98 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.91 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
CY (0.172%):            1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs |
Sugar (0%):              0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (164.682%):     955.04 g | 33.69 oz | 2.11 lbs | TF = 0.0846
Single Ball:                318.35 g | 11.23 oz | 0.7 lbs

You will note that there is no volume measurement given for the cake yeast (fresh yeast). That is because there is no good way to do such a conversion. However, the way that is often used is to relate an amount of fresh yeast to one of those little cubes of fresh yeast (usually Fleishchmann’s) that is sold in the supermarkets and weighs 0.6 oz. (17 g.). On that basis, 0.04 ounces of fresh yeast is about 7/100ths of one of those 0.6 ounce cakes. I have also read that one ounce of cake yeast is equal to 1 1/2 tablespoons, or 4.5 teaspoons. I don’t know if that number is any good, but on that basis, 0.04 ounces of cake yeast comes to about 1/5 teaspoon.

If you would like to change your numbers in any way, such as number of pizzas and/or the sizes of pizzas, you can do that using the tool and it will give you the amounts of ingredients to use. I know that Jeff says not to be enslaved by baker’s percents and the like, but until you get your sea legs on what you are trying to do, the tool may help you out. For further information on the tool, you can go to this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3477.new.html#top.

Peter

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 01:03:15 AM »
pizzanyc,

I have been playing around with the new Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and decided to plug in the numbers for the dough formulation you plan to use. I calculated all of the bakerís percents for the formulation and assumed that you would be making 3 dough balls, each of which would be for a 13Ē pizza, as specified by Jeff at his website. From the individual dough ball weight and pizza size, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.0846. What I got for results using the tool is the following:

Flour (100%):           579.93 g  |  20.46 oz | 1.28 lbs
Water (62.1%):        360.14 g  |  12.7 oz | 0.79 lbs
Oil (0%):                   0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Salt (2.41%):            13.98 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.91 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
CY (0.172%):            1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs |
Sugar (0%):              0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (164.682%):     955.04 g | 33.69 oz | 2.11 lbs | TF = 0.0846
Single Ball:                318.35 g | 11.23 oz | 0.7 lbs

You will note that there is no volume measurement given for the cake yeast (fresh yeast). That is because there is no good way to do such a conversion. However, the way that is often used is to relate an amount of fresh yeast to one of those little cubes of fresh yeast (usually Fleishchmannís) that is sold in the supermarkets and weighs 0.6 oz. (17 g.). On that basis, 0.04 ounces of fresh yeast is about 7/100ths of one of those 0.6 ounce cakes. I have also read that one ounce of cake yeast is equal to 1 1/2 tablespoons, or 4.5 teaspoons. I donít know if that number is any good, but on that basis, 0.04 ounces of cake yeast comes to about 1/5 teaspoon.

If you would like to change your numbers in any way, such as number of pizzas and/or the sizes of pizzas, you can do that using the tool and it will give you the amounts of ingredients to use. I know that Jeff says not to be enslaved by bakerís percents and the like, but until you get your sea legs on what you are trying to do, the tool may help you out. For further information on the tool, you can go to this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3477.new.html#top.

Peter



thanks to peter and jeff for all your help. I just finished all my mixing and autolysing and i've put the dough balls i formed in a ziplock bag for it to rise for 1 hour. afterwards, i will put it in the fridge to ferment slowly. i did the window paning test on a very tiny piece of dough and it looks like the dough will be much better than my last batch 00 flour dough, it was actually not hard to stretch out and the dough felt different from the other batch i made with farina tipo 00 flour. I think this one might actually work.

again thanks a lot to everybody for putting up with my annoying questions, but i still don't understand baker's percents at all. will have to start reading those baking books i guess. have no idea how you calculate thickness of a crust, that's really interesting. that dough calculating tool is very interesting. after about 24 hours of fermenting in the fridge, i'll bake it and take photos. really hope i can learn how to make sourdough next time and come up with a pie similar to patsy's.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2006, 08:27:15 AM »
pizzanyc,

The beauty of the tool is that you don't have to understand baker's percents. However, you have to have them, and in your case Jeff gave you enough information to easily calculate them (he even posts baker's percents at his website for his particular formulation). To calculate the thickness factor (TF) of a dough requires knowing the weight of a single dough ball and the desired thickness of the finished dough/pizza. In your case, the total dough ball weight is 955 grams (580 + 360 + 14 + 1 = 955). If you are making 3 dough balls, each one will weigh 318.33 grams (955/3 = 318.33). To convert the weight of a single dough ball to ounces, you divide the grams by 28.35 (there are 28.35 grams per ounce). Doing this gives us 11.22 ounces (318.33/28.35 = 11.22). To then calculate the thickness factor (TF), all that is necessary is to do this simple calculation:

                                       TF = [DW/(3.14 x R x R)],

where DW is the single dough ball weight (11.22) and R is the radius of the pizza (diameter divided by 2, or 13" divided by 2 in your case). The number 3.14 is Pi, the Greek letter. Inserting the numbers in your case gives us:

                             TF = [11.22/(3.14 x 6.5 x 6.5)] = 11.22/132.67 = 0.0846.

To give you a frame of reference for comparison purposes, the thickness factor of a NY style is typically 0.10-0.105. So, your finished pizzas will be thinner than a NY style. The TF is somewhat of a fiction but it works quite well to allow you to make different pizza sizes and thicknesses and have the same characteristics and consistency from one pizza to the next. 

If you have interest in seeing how bakerís percents are calculated and used, a pretty good mini-tutorial is at this King Arthur article at http://web.archive.org/web/20090106001715/http://www.kingarthurflour.com//professional/bakerspercentage.pdf . You might even try calculating the bakerís percents for your particular dough formulation. The reason why the calculating tool was developed was to make all the math easier once bakerís percents and thickness factors are derived. The math may seem a bit complicated, but that is because I walked you step by step through the process. Once you understand the math, it will take you about a minute with a calculator to get the numbers you need.

Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 06:31:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2006, 08:36:59 AM »
Hey Pete,

The thing I never get about your thickness calculation is how it accounts for the rim.

Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2006, 09:11:40 AM »
Jeff,

I think that's one of the reasons why it is somewhat of a fiction. As you know, the calculation correlates surface area (Pi R squared) and dough weight. That's all. So, if you make the rim big, the thickness of the rest of the pizza crust will be less than what the calculation would suggest. The way you would adjust the next time would be to increase the thickness factor. Or if your rim is almost nonexistent, you would decrease the thickness factor the next time. Of course, the value of the calculating tool is that once you have baker's percents and a thickness factor, the tool does all of the rest of the work, including conversion of weights of most of the ingredients to volumes.

BTW, the NY "elite" pizza styles, such as I would characterize yours, tend to have thickness factors of around 0.07-0.08. When I derived the thickness factor for a DiFara dough based on what Dom DeMarco told me about his dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size, I came up with a thickness factor of 0.086. That difference compared with yours isn't particularly material since most people don't measure out the sizes of their pizzas exactly and they don't usually weigh out a dough ball exactly. The value of the thickness factor is that it gets you on the playing field rather than in the centerfield bleachers.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2006, 09:37:24 AM »
pizzanyc,

As a followup to your last post, I want to mention that Patsy's does not use 00 flour. I don't know what flour is used but it isn't 00 flour. The other old-name NY "elite" places, including Lombardi's, which you mentioned in another thread recently, don't use 00 flour either, except for DiFara's, which uses a combination of 00 flour and a high-gluten flour. Lombardi's uses All Trumps high-gluten flour. Of course, if you are using a standard home oven your pizzas won't come out like the old-name elite places, or even like Jeff's, because most of them are using either high-temperature coal-fired ovens or gas-fired ovens. More recently, of course, UPN and a few others use high-temperature wood-fired ovens. UPN uses 00 flour.

The value in following Jeff's dough making instructions is to understand basic processes and to develop a high-quality dough and good dough making skills. For now, that's perhaps more important than the oven.

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2006, 11:36:06 AM »
I gotcha. I guess since I can only make a pizza to fit my stone, I never think about it. I have varied my dough size from 260-350 in various experiments, and in the end come to about 320 as my preference.

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2006, 02:42:56 PM »
failed pizza experiment. i started shaping it at 12 pm today.

Offline pizzanyc

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2006, 02:46:47 PM »
photo of the whole pie that failed again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2006, 02:47:00 PM »
pizzanyc,

Can you explain the steps you followed from the time you put the dough into the refrigerator to where you started to shape it? And what the dough looked like along the way?

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2006, 02:48:31 PM »
Hmmmm.... This is a pizza emergency...

what happened to waiting 1-4 days. You just wrote 12 hours ago about making this.

Offline varasano

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Re: interesting recipe i found on food tv site
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2006, 02:49:08 PM »
What temperature was that cooked at? It looks unfinished.


 

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