However, I'm really open to anything after seeing some of scott r's photos that he posted recently. These showed excellent spring using a cool oven (550) and incorporating a triple rise, punch down and another triple rise. Those photos really surprised me. They definitely showed me that there is more than one way to skin this particular cat. They are the opposite of what I do which is a single 50% rise, and a hot oven (825F).
Scott, could you address the exact procedure you used for those. Did you mix really really well, all the way to a very fine windowpane? Even though I show some highly windowpaned examples on my site, I typically do a much lighter mix and consequently I have found that too much dough rise weakens the structure. I get an excellent spring with my procedure. But if I were to manhandle the dough, I think it wouldn't work. Perhaps with more kneading to the fine windowpane stage, it could take more rise and more handling. The one time that I did handle an uncooked Patsy's dough it was unbelievably windowpaned, unlike anything I've ever tried to produce. I know that sounds strange since I'm on this Patsy's quest, but I've just not gotten around to that particular experiment in the zillions of other things I've tried in my limited time. I really want to make a single batch that I pull balls out of the mixer at 5, 10, 15, 20 and even 25 minutes and see how they compare.
Jeff, the dough I pictured was actually mixed for a shorter amount of time than the procedure shown (so perfectly and thoroughly) on your site. I started with about half the flour all the salt and IDY (only) in the mixer and mixed for 1 minute, then did a 10 minute autolyse. After the rest period I added the oil and the remaining flour over the course of about 5 or 6 minutes. This whole procedure was done at the slowest setting. I stopped as soon as the doughball formed around the roller. I would actally say that it was about half the kneading that you have outlined on your site, and the minimum amount that I could really do and make a decent doughball without chunks in it.
There are a few things to consider that may have helped to create my huge voids even though the dough was lightly mixed, baked at 550, and was fermented to the point of almost being dead.
1 The dough had quite a bit of oil in it. Probably more than usual. That could help to seal in the gasses right?
2 The dough was really wet, At the time I was attributing it to the extra long fermentation, but I do remember it being very very gelatinous when I shaped it and went to shake it off the peel.
3 Light mixing, as shown in a wonderful post of Giotto's a few years back can create very large voids.
4 The sugar in the dough could have helped to feed the yeast, essentially making it so that the yeast didn't know it was overfermented.
Here are my notes from that particular dough so Pete-zza can dissect my recipe and get all analytical on my ass.
Sorry I didn't measure my flour, but it was very wet. My guess is that it was at least a 65% hydration, but it could have been higher.
740g water, 30g salt, 20g sugar, 45g oil, 1/4 teaspoon (plus a few pinches) of IDY. dual autolyse (10 at beginning, 20 before 1 minute fold at end) wet dough, light knead, Half General mills full strength flour half KASL flour. It was a hot summer day, so the dough tripled in 8 hours, spent 24 hours in the fridge, then tripled in volume again before baking.
Jeff, I noticed from my notes that the dough actually spent 24 hrs in the fridge, I think I had originally told you it was only 12.
If anybody feels like trying this recipe I can highly recommend it. I am not norally a big sugar or oil fan, but my goal here was maximum flavor with IDY, and to have a dough that can get crispy even with the wimpiest of ovens, yet still stay soft in the middle. The recipe was a definite success, so much so that my wife (and main pizza tester) thought it was possibly my best ever normal temp NY style dough. I have also repeated the recipe with excellent results using 100% KASL or all KA bread flour. The oven I used for these pies was very average for 550. Probably a true 550. I have found some ovens that cook much slower at 550, and some that seem much hotter at 550.