Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 177021 times)

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Offline Aaron

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2010, 08:00:42 AM »
Pizzahog it stands for Kansas City Barbecue Society look here for more info www.kcbs.us
Aaron


Offline GIBBY

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #181 on: February 25, 2010, 12:16:20 PM »
Hello to all Fellow Detroit Style Pizza Lovers!  What a great site!  We were just talking about Loui's and well, here I am.  I am in the process of reading all the posts and will give a try to the dough.  You know the secret is in the dough...according to Loui himself.  Great info.  Will be in touch Im sure I will have tons of questions once I read all these posts..good grief.   We live in Southern Kentucky and no Pizza places here at all, except the chain stores, we love Loui's, Buddys, Cloverleaf and of course Green Lantern.  Talk to ya soon.
lovemypizza, Get the recipe right and you might have a new profession! Anyways, I'm going to have my wife write down her dough concoction recipe that she found which she has modified through trial and error and will post everything we do up to putting on your plate. We are currently working on a connection that works at Buddy's and ask him to get the wrapper from the cheese they use so there will be no doubt. My step dad is the current commadore at the boat club he's a memeber at and he thinks our pizza is good enough that he wants us to help him in a boat club pizza night to raise money for the club. If that Troy distributor needs a buisness licence, then I might be able to use his and then buy extra for me :chef:.

Offline Grilled Pizza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #182 on: February 27, 2010, 12:07:15 AM »
Tomorrow I am making another pizza.  Any thoughts on what to do to make a crispy crust.  This is one thing I am lacking.  I was going to try Crisco.  I don't know if this is the right thing to do.  When I worked at Speakeasy on Van Dyke and West Rd I think it was just oil.  They had the crispy crust like Buddy's, but I was just a busboy and did not know the details.  Please give me some ideas.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 12:13:29 AM by Grilled Pizza »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2010, 12:27:35 PM »
Grilled Pizza
Every pan lube I have tried has lead to a crispy crust.  I believe one factor is the black steel pan, which is what all the Det style pizzerias use.  Beyond that, it's prob a temp and time thing, although I also always bake these on the lowest oven rack which I think helps too.
One difficulty with oil is keeping it under the dough while spreading it since for me it always tends to get pushed out to the edges.  Research supports the use of oil at Buddy's and the like, but they also have very highly seasoned pans which may allow them to get away with this easier than we can (this general reality has been discussed on the forum for many styles).  I am thinking at this point that is the case since the last few Buddy's I picked up were surprisingly non greasy on the bottom = seasoned pans with a minimum of oil.  Currently I favor brushing shortening on the pan cause it stays in place and it does not take much at all.  After reading the label on Crisco, I ended up buying a tub of organic palm oil shortening at whole foods and it works fine.  But then again, this all applies to the over the top hydrated dough and if you are trying less hydration oil may do the trick.
I would be happy to pick up some of these black steel pans for you and ship them out, but presently there is good and bad news here again.  They are quite cheap as the 10x14 (Buddy's large size) is only $6.95.  The bad news is I was just there yesterday to pick up another one for myself and the current batch lot they have in the small and large sizes are not black, but gray!  They allowed me to open a new box full and they were all gray too.  They also have a larger size, maybe 12x17, that is still black and poss even one larger.  I passed, hoping this is a manufacturer's variance and in time they will return in black. 
I was also able to note the manufacturer on the unopened box label:  Dover Parkersburg.  I just spent 10 minutes googling them though and could find no other distributor of their pans but plenty for their other steel products which are numerous - Aaarrgghh!  If you are interested send me a PM and good luck on tomorrows pizza!

Aaron, thanks for tip on KCBS.  As it happens though, I stumbled onto someone who shops at Rest Depot twice/week and is willing to pick up some cheese for me.  That should happen next week IF they carry the mozz-white cheddar blend or even just the white cheddar, which is why I was looking to buy more pans for multiple experiments.  I will report on the cheese once tried.

Hog
 




Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #184 on: February 28, 2010, 10:47:12 AM »
Cheese update:
My shopping contact reports that the local Restaurant Depot only carries the Foremost/Supremo Italiano in the Mozz and Mozz/Prov blends - no white cheddars.  Foiled again it seems...

Offline Grilled Pizza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #185 on: March 07, 2010, 10:32:55 PM »
Hi Pizza Hog,

I am working on something that might be great for all of us.  Pans, cheese, etc.  I will keep you posted.


Offline steel_baker

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2010, 05:22:37 PM »
OK, So I'm from Pittsburgh and today made the trip from home to Lansing, MI for a business meeting tomorrow. After reading about Buddy's on here, I thought I'd try it out. I planned my trip to drive up through Toledo on I-280, I-75, then I-275 west of Detroit and stopped for lunch at the Livonia Buddy's location. Now, I'm a fairly experienced sicilian pizza baker and seem to have a knack for deconstructing unique pizzas so here is my analysis. All of you who live in the detroit area , feel free to critique as I'm sure that you have more knowledge and more experience with Detroit style pizza than I do but here goes:

The crust to me is a standard sicilian baked in a black steel pan, nothing special in that regard except- there is a light layer of hard cheese (tastes like parmesan to me) baked on top of the crust. The baked crust is removed from the oven, the remaining "soft" cheese is added & then the sauce (tastes very marinara like to me) is put on top of the cheese, and the pizza is cut & served. It was obvious to me that the soft cheese & sauce had not been baked at all, no signs of burning or cooking in any way. The topping of the pizza with the fresh shredded cheese after it is baked is similar to the Ohio valley pizza style. This is a sicilian style that shows up a little bit in Pittsburgh and some of the eastern Ohio River communities. Dicarlos is one of the small Ohio Valley chains that does this and they top it with provolone after the crust comes out of the oven, then cut & serve. The crust is baked with the sauce on it first.

If I was trying to duplicate Buddy's pizza, here is how I would do it:

1. Prepare the Sicilian dough, place in well oiled pan and stretch, rise, stretch to fit pan, rise again.

2. Top the crust evenly with finely grated parmesan being extra careful to build up the sides slightly where the crust meets the pan to get the wispy "stand up" crust on the edges that every Buddy's pizza has.

3. Bake at 450 or hotter for 10-15 mins until the parmesan turns brown & crisp around the edges

4. Pull the baked crust & immediately top with shredded soft cheese & sauce, then cut & serve.

Don't know what the soft cheese is but that is obviously one of their secrets. Their menu says that it's specially prepared just for them in Wisconsin. I sat at the bar to eat and people at the bar must have though I was nuts because I kept picking each slice apart as I ate it examining the crumb of the dough, the cheesy crust on top, etc. I think that the dough is not an especially high hydration, maybe 65-68%, but the salty crispiness of the parmesan on the top is unmistakable. Not much oil in the crust either.

So that's my analysis of Buddy's pizza. I enjoyed it, thought it was pretty good and will certainly stop again in the future. I just thought that if my analysis of it could shed any light on how this pizza is made, then the visit would be worthwhile.

Comments?

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #187 on: March 08, 2010, 07:18:14 PM »
steel_baker,

According to the first photo in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851, it does not look to me that there is any pre-baked crust with a hard cheese like a Parmesan cheese. The dough in the photo looks unbaked and the pepperoni look uncooked.

Peter

Offline steel_baker

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #188 on: March 08, 2010, 07:31:38 PM »
It's there without a doubt. That's what the burnt crispies around the edges are. Parmesan creates a very dry  crispy texture when it browns. The photo doesn't really show it. I ate 2 pieces at lunch, and brought two leftover pieces with me to my hotel. Just ate one of them. The flavor is unmistakeable. Browned Parmesan is a significant part of Buddy's flavor. Try it for yourself at home. That's the real test.

Steel_baker
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Offline steel_baker

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #189 on: March 08, 2010, 08:21:28 PM »
Also, I'm not saying that the crust was pre-baked, it's baked only once. But my pizza was baked with the hard cheese on it, then pulled out and topped with the sauce & soft cheese and served. They probably keep the sauce hot in a pot and spoon it over the soft cheese that they put on the crust. All of the soft cheese on the 4 square I had was in the center of the pizza. That left the perimeter of the pizza relatively exposed and it was easy to see the hard cheese baked on the crust. I was actually able to pick at it and remove the "cheesy skin" with my fork. The runny soft cheese on top was definitely not baked but completely melted from the heat of the crust beneath and the hot sauce on top.

Regarding the pics, these are all before baking so you really wouldn't see anything but raw dough. I noticed in the bottom pic it's risen in the pan, just as I do with my fried in the pan Sicilian. On the pepperoni pizza, notice where he's putting the cheese... he's building it up on the edges, and yes he will cover the pepperoni with it. The cheese he is using doesn't appear shredded though, it appears more like it's coarsely ground, like a hard cheese. Then after the baking, they put the soft cheese & sauce on it.

Maybe they put it back in for a another minute or so to better "blend" the different cheeses on top, I don't know, this is the first time I've had it but these are my first impressions.
steel_baker  :chef:


Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #190 on: March 08, 2010, 08:53:33 PM »
steel_baker,

I have never had a Buddy's pizza, so I am not the best one to comment on your thesis. I was perhaps not clear enough when I used the term "pre-bake". What I meant to say is that the dough is not baked before being completed. On the matter of the crusty cheese effect at the perimeter of the crust, I have achieved that same effect when I have made Greek/pub and cracker-style pizzas baked in cutter pans. I would intentionally load up the edge of the dough with the cheese(s) to specifically get that effect. As in the photo I referenced, I started adding the cheese first around the perimeter and then filled in the rest of the pizzas with the cheese(s). For some time now, I have been using diced cheese on my pizzas. That is a form that many pizza operators use. So, I would not be surprised to learn that Buddy's is also using diced cheese. I dice my cheeses in my Cuisinart food processor to any size dice that I would like. I'm not sure that Parmesan cheese can be diced that way. I would have to get a fresh supply and test it.

I recalled another photo of a Buddy's pizza that shows some cooking of the cheese, at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. Since that photo, Buddy's has changed cheese vendor (from Kraft to Foremost), and it may also have gone to a new cheese blend, so the photo may not be completely representative of what Buddy's is doing today.

Peter

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #191 on: March 08, 2010, 08:54:43 PM »
Sheesh, this pizza is like the holy grail - no one know quite what it is and it appears different to each person!  I really am starting to believe there are some significant differences between their various locations in how they build and bake these.  The photos I posted and those from dicepackage look quite different in some important aspects (5 months apart, 2 diff locations).  Or maybe they are just changing things up again like the possible brick/cheddar switch.  The last pie I purchased was a "half baked" and all the cheese was half baked at that point as well, for whatever that is worth.  So you may be right steelbaker, who knows at this point.
At any rate, I was not going to post until I got thru all my latest planned experiments, but since we are on the subject, here is tonight's attempt:

Offline future_itisnow

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #192 on: March 08, 2010, 08:57:01 PM »
pizzahog...are those pics from your own recipe?  well done if so.

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #193 on: March 08, 2010, 09:14:55 PM »
Hey future
Yes, thanks, another of my experiments (like # 123.25 v6), also my dinner, and I still have the burnt cheese caked pan to prove it.  The closest one and best one so far.  I am starting to think I may actually find that grail yet - hopefully anyway.
Peter and steelbaker just gave me a few ideas that might really help on some lacking elements too.
Thanks guys!

Offline Grail Seeker

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #194 on: March 10, 2010, 04:00:52 PM »
Hey PizzaHog,

Those pix look like the real MC Coy!

I've read all the threads (4 hrs worth) about Buddy's. My parents used to take us kids there maybe once a month at Conant & 6 mile. The line to get in was usually a block long, or about two hour wait. People had their old seasoned pans in hand, which were from the previous carry outs after the last time they stood in line for hours. I think they charged .50 deposit on the pans. This was in the 60's & early 70's.
That taste is unique and I have never tasted anything like it. I've never been to Shields or Louie's, but I'm going to check it out soon. I too have been trying to crack the Grail and appreciate all of your work to do it.
Is it time for a complete recipe update? Did you try the beer, parmason cheese?
Jet's has a pretty good crust, but the rest is sub (grail) standard.

Keep up the good wood work!

Offline pjbear05

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #195 on: March 10, 2010, 10:08:52 PM »
One more old place to add to the mix.  Anybody remember Cal's on the east side, Warren and Cadieux area?  Karen swears they had the best crust for Detroit style.  I remember it being real rich, probably lots of butter in the dough.  ;D
"Aw, Paulie?  You won't see him no more!"

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #196 on: March 11, 2010, 10:36:02 AM »
PJ
Cal's is still here, selling pizza's out of a bar in St Clair Shores called G Willie's.  Yup, a great pie and fine example of the Detroit style.  They may still have a location somewhere on the east side of Detroit too I believe.
Last night was two more experiments and the second one was the breakthrough at last.  That pie as a whole is as about as close as I can manage by memory, although the hydration in the previous test with photo may actually be closer, or somewhere in between.  Next steps are to repeat that experiment to confirm along with a side by side comparison and to pick up a scale for accurate reporting and the minor adjustments I know will be necessary.  I am on a mission and intend to see this thru to that point at which time I will post the whole 9 yards so anyone interested can try it, tweak it, and improve upon it.
Yes, this pie was non Detroit with peperoni on top, but I had to concede to that request along with light sauce for my pizza tester, who also felt this pie was way close.
I am geeked.

 

Offline steve in FL

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #197 on: March 11, 2010, 10:39:37 PM »
Hog, I've used your recipe/technique a few times now, and had different results each time, surely because I've used different pans each time.. I have to find some black steal pans in this town.. I'm sure that would give me what I'm looking for..

[Unfortunately.. since I first started monitoring this thread, I've become a statistic of the economic times and lost my job.. I've had to pack my things into storage and moved back up to MI to stay with my dad until things pick up.. however, fortunately he lives in Sterling Hts, and the Buddy's at Old 13/Vandyke is only minutes away! Can't wait to get back there and have the real deal once again.. I must get pictures..]






Offline pjbear05

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #198 on: March 13, 2010, 11:39:26 AM »
Thanks Hog,  I have a sister in St. Clair Shores who was a big Cloverleaf fan, and know she should check out G Willie's for sure.

BTW, I notice in your pics that you transfer your pie to a cooling rack.  For how long before serving, and the purpose, please.
"Aw, Paulie?  You won't see him no more!"

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #199 on: March 14, 2010, 12:11:24 AM »
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs             C + 1 T + 2 t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp       t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp    t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475.

Yeast.  I have varied between 0.33 and 1.1% and the only noticeable effect was rise time so adjust away.  The above formula is usable in 3-4 hours at room temp for me.

This is a wet, soft, sticky, extensible dough.  Not much handling possible or needed.  With fingers oiled from the tips to 2nd joint it smooshes out fairly easy.  The "double knead" process does make it easier to spread as described in Peter's helpful summary http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436.

The magic cheese here is indeed white cheddar.  If these pizzarias are not/were not using this, then it must be white cheddar's twin sister.  I have used Boar's Head Vermont white cheddar and Cabot Extra Sharp white cheddar from Walmart, sold in 2 lb blocks and half the price of Boar's Head.  The Cabot is the sharper, saltier, and more intense of the two, but they both caramelize up golden to brown (not black) and have the unmistakable flavor profile of the Detroit style.  Blending these with a mozz that goes creamy and goey adds an interesting effect and can soften the sharp cheddar if desired, but ONLY pure white cheddar should be used on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Shredded or cubed both work.  Pile the cheese up around the perimeter of the pan then fill in the center.  15 oz is what Buddy's indicate they use.

Pan prep.  Every pan lube I have tried works.  OO appears to be most authentic and is what I am using now.  Getting this right results in a good crisp fry without the pie ending up greasy.  In the 10x14 pan, 1 1/2 tsp spread with a pastry brush is about perfect since the brush does soak up and remove some of the oil.  The cheese crust always welds itself to the pan for me.  To prevent this, I paint a thin strip of shortening just above the risen dough with a brush around the sides of the pan before piling on the cheese.  It still does not pop out, but can at least be released with just a little effort. 

Sauce.  All the Detroit pizzerias have quite diff sauces and 6 fluid ounces seems about right for a 10x14.  I have not yet succeeded in coming up with any of the individual sauces of the big 3, I think. 

The crumb and texture here is better than passable but I believe bromated flour would be necessary to close the gap.  Even so, this pie could be mistaken for one of the real things, past or present.  That is due to these pizzas being a moving target.  Since starting this quest I have used 4 diff Buddy's locations for "controls" and over that year have experienced 3 diff versions of the same pie!  The last was just this week and after I thought I had the sauce figured, they either changed it dramatically or the particular location I visited (for the first time) is just diff or something.  Plus the cheese was not right.  It was one of their carry out only's so maybe that is the reason?   
 
PJ, I pull the pie out of the pan immediately and onto a cooling rack to preserve the bottom crisp until served.  I found this helped with the way over hydrated 90% version of Sicilian dough and also with some NY styles.  To be honest, I never tested if this matters with this particular formula but am just in the habit.

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog