Author Topic: Olive oil on pizza dough  (Read 4208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NYC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
  • I Love Pizza!
Olive oil on pizza dough
« on: September 23, 2006, 01:26:34 PM »
I,ve read some of the New York Style pizza recipes on this site and was amazed by the complete misunderstanding of what New York pizza is all about. I can guarantee you that whoever came up with these recipes is definitely not from New York. It is not even possible to end up with anything that even resembles a New York style pizza unless the dough is first coated with a thin layer of olive oil before putting the sauce and cheese onto the pizza. The whole character, texture and flavor is different. Without the olive oil you are not making pizza. You are inventing something new resembling California imitation pizza.


Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 03:40:33 PM »
? Say what?

I lived in NYC for 30 years and I never saw this once unless it was a sicilian pie.

> Without the olive oil you are not making pizza. You are inventing something new resembling California imitation pizza.
I can guarantee you that in Naples, they don't coat the dough with oil. SOME place may put a bit of oil on as the last ingredient, but not on the dough. In NY I've never seen any oil. They may put some in the sauce, and the cheese is pretty greasy sometimes, but that's it.

I don't know where you get your information.

Click the globe under my name for photos of some real NYC pizza.


Offline giotto

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 411
  • Location: SF Bay Area
  • Italy has DOC, we have NY standards.
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 10:40:47 PM »
Gotta love it when someone comes in and says there is 1 way to do something. Like Reinhart has suggested in his posts, we ain't policed in the US! In NY, there ain't no one way to do anything. Does Dom Demarco use the same toppings or place them on exactly as everyone else does? Personally, I have no problem when a deviation is made to a perceived norm anyways, since I like to make things better or customize accordingly.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 10:44:58 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21205
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 10:49:25 PM »
I just returned from a trip to NYC and watched a lot of pizza makers make their pizzas and did not see any of them put oil on the skins before putting the sauce, cheeses and toppings. That's not to say that coating the skin first is never done. However, it is usually done when skins are sauced in advance of a rush of orders, or for take-and-bake or frozen bake-to-rise pizzas. The oil in these cases is to prevent migration of the sauce into the dough and creating a gum line.

Peter

Offline John39840

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 66
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 05:40:31 AM »
I just returned from a trip to NYC and watched a lot of pizza makers make their pizzas and did not see any of them put oil on the skins before putting the sauce, cheeses and toppings. That's not to say that coating the skin first is never done. However, it is usually done when skins are sauced in advance of a rush of orders, or for take-and-bake or frozen bake-to-rise pizzas. The oil in these cases is to prevent migration of the sauce into the dough and creating a gum line.

Peter

Interesting expression... a gum line. :) And I agree. Upon being baked, the oil does give the dough underneath the sauce and cheese an interesting texture.

I also like this oil line created between the dough and sauce for several important reasons. It helps the crust from getting soggy... especially worthwhile for anyone experimenting with toppings. An oily skin also allows for a wetter sauce, which gives a nice oozing consistency to a slice. I also like how it changes the weight distribution of the slice itself, and allows it to be held firmly in hand without bending. :P

Again, I've never seen a single pizzeria here in NYC coat their pizzas with oil... contrary to the original poster. Yet, the reason could mainly be due to time constraints. Although, I'd also imagine, the more professional your equipment, the less likely your pizzas would benefit from an oily coating, at least to any significant degree.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 05:55:47 AM by John39840 »

Offline ilpizzaiolo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 57
  • Age: 43
  • Location: pittsburgh
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2006, 12:17:03 AM »
i have been making pizza for 18 years and have researched pizza all over the world, especially in new york and naples italy and i am going to tell you that you are dead wrong and that is one of the most ridiculous pieces of misinformation i have ever come across. you should actually apologize to all the people on this site who work so hard to create authentic pizza who might be led down the wrong path with that crap. information is the key, that is, accurate information provided by people that are experienced, knowledgeable and reliable. save that junk for pizza therapy.com You are the one mistaken, do not guarantee anything unless you are an expert!

- ron


Offline mirepoix

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 09:11:48 AM »
I didn't think that anyone could get so upset about oil on dough...

new member here.
I am the executive chef of a restaurant in Leesburg, VA and our company has just opened a wood fired pizza place.
I have learned a lot from all of you while I have been lurking here in the dark over the past week.

We used to brush oil and garlic on the dough but after a while it just made every pie look rather greasy.
So we nixed that "toot sweet."

Authentic or not authentic, that's not really the question...
Delicious or not Delicious. That's Question.

Just my 2 cents

MP


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2006, 09:45:44 AM »
mirepoix,

If you read the opening post you will understand Ron's reply: It is about tradition in this case. There is a LOT of misinformation out there!

Then we could open another post on the taste benefit or not, another on the colour benefit or not and one more on the effect oil has on the gluten if added when mixing....

Ciao

Offline ilpizzaiolo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 57
  • Age: 43
  • Location: pittsburgh
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2006, 01:49:31 PM »
I would like to clarify that my initial response is not motivated by the use of oil. it is the context and tone of the author and i will disect what is wrong with his statements.

"I,ve read some of the New York Style pizza recipes on this site and was amazed by the complete misunderstanding of what New York pizza is all about."

- wrong - most of the new york style recipes and the people making them on this site are very accurate and in often cases better than new york street pizza and its makers. the information here is generally more detailed and more accurate than most books written on the topic and certainly better than all magazine articles.

" I can guarantee you that whoever came up with these recipes is definitely not from New York. "
-  whether or not someone (or the water) is from new york has no effect on their ability to make new york pizza, even if you have never traveled to new york you can easily see with your own eyes how a new york pizza is constructed on any one of the food network/travel channels shows how a pizza is made by a "new york pizzaiolo". just by living in new york city does not automatically make someone a pizza expert. there is ignorance everywhere, even in naples.

"It is not even possible to end up with anything that even resembles a New York style pizza unless the dough is first coated with a thin layer of olive oil before putting the sauce and cheese onto the pizza. The whole character, texture and flavor is different."
- what are you talking about, the truth is exactly the opposite of  your statement.

" Without the olive oil you are not making pizza."
- untrue, pizza can be made with or without olive oil and certainly the order in which it is put on does not define pizza

You are inventing something new resembling California imitation pizza.
- now your just over the top and confirmed your total lack of understanding on the subject.

your mistake which provoked me(aside from not knowing what you were talking about) was suggesting the you were right, and everyone else was wrong and presenting yourself as knowledgeable.

the reason this bothers me so much is because in my 18 year search for the perfect pizza, i have been misled my many people in the past and have seen a lot of people claim to be experts. I have also come to recognize b.s. when i see it. another example that i saw recently was on the travel channels show entitled "america eats pizza". on this show jeff ruby, (co-author with penny pollack of the book : everybody loves pizza) when speaking about the difference between new york/coal oven and neapolitan/wood oven he claims  " the most obvious difference between that (coal-fired oven) and a wood-fired oven is the crust if softer, the neapolitan pizza sort of stood up at attention a little bit and the new york pizzas drooped."

the most obvious thing to me jeff is that somehow you wrote a book and still don't know the difference between the two. he is wrong, in fact, he has it reversed. the neapolitan pizza out of the woodfired oven is softer.... because the oven is hotter and the flour has less protein. Ed levine is another one who spreads misinformation by  telling people that coal ovens burn hotter than wood ovens. in some cases yes, and in some cases gas ovens burn hotter than some peoples wood ovens, but a properly fired wood oven that is properly constructed will get hotter than a coal oven. the truth is in the bake time. no one using  coal oven is baking pizza in 60 seconds. that is why coal brick oven pizza is generally more crispy and the topping more dried out and usually bakes between 2 to 5 minutes.

my friend told me about 2 years ago, if you want to be percieved by the public as an expert, just write a book on the subjuct! ed levine, penny pollack and jeff ruby are not experts, they just write books and are making money talking about the subject. Not to say all books are incorrect. Evelyne slomon is in fact one of the leading and most respected pizza makers in the us. and also, peter reinhardt is an expert on baking and has been very thorough on his pizza research. tom lehman of the american institure of baking is also a real expert. they are all extremely knowledgeable.

one last gripe, john brescio of lombardi's pizza doesn't know a damn thing about making pizza. he has hi-jacked a recipe and a name and is perpetrating as  a pizza expert. it is painful for me to watch and listen to this guy speak about pizza... comparing pizza to english muffins with nooks and crannies.... come one john? pick up a book and read, there are many books that could help you learn about the product you are selling and the person you are pretending to be!

nyc - thanks for giving me this opportunity to get this off my chest.

- ron

Offline varasano

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 712
  • Location: Atlanta (Bronx born and raised)
  • Seeking perfection
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2006, 02:10:04 PM »
Great post ron.

None of us is 100% accurate all of the time, but it's pretty obvious who is in the trenches, doing the experiments, thinking things through, innovating and committed to quality. Then there are others who just show up and pass off the same tired information and myth that circles around. Invariably though, they never post convincing photos of their pies. 

It always amazes me when I see people put in a lot of effort to write a book or build a site, yet they don't really know the basics of how to make dough. Like pizzatherapy.com - that site is huge and took a long time to build, yet all the information is wrong. I saw another site - it is the #1 google result for 'pizza recipe', just ahead of my site. Look at this ridiculous NY pizza dough recipe: brown sugar, milk, cornmeal, shortening?

http://pizzaware.com/pizzadough6.htm

Every recipe there is absurd with strange inredients like soy flour and soy oil. I just don't get it. These sites are really time consuming to build and the recipes are time consuming to make and test. Why would you do it unless you knew what you were talking about and had something real to say? You don't have to know everything or be right about everything to speak out. But one recent site was all about pizza crust mix, boboli's and bad dough recipes. It's a mystery to me.

As far as Brescio goes... it's just a shame what lombardi's is now. It's not even as good as regular street pizza. Thankfully UPN and Luzzo's and some of the new places are picking up where some of the old places are fading.

Jeff


Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2006, 02:59:04 PM »
I seem to recall when Lombardis originally re-opened,it was done at the desire of a your passionate pizzamaker from New York.Were the people who are the spokespersons for this place involved back then?I haven't followed the story as I visited it soon after it opened and was dissapointed.Now it has expanded onto the corner and has firmly planted itself and convinced the masses of it's stature in NY pizza history.It is the same reason i never bothered to listen to the guy speak at the last NY expo.I'm probably narrow minded,but I just had a gut instinct that this was a guy more interested it buck and celebrity than love of the product.(Never mind the fact that i'd just sat through listening to Ed Levine earlier at the Expo!
         David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2006, 03:16:22 PM »
Great Post Ron!!!

You know how much I agree with you.

people get a lot of misinformation out there and then when someone like me trys to get the record straight, he get attacked from all side...

Nevermind, I am Thickskinned ;-)

Offline ilpizzaiolo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 57
  • Age: 43
  • Location: pittsburgh
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2006, 03:24:17 PM »
when lombardi's was in the process of reopening, I somehow got word of it and ended up in the place before it reopened talking to john and a guy named andrew. I believe the three were partners, jerry lombardi, john and andrew bellaci. I believe the jerry was there as the name sake, and to help recreate the pizza, andrew was actually the pizza maker ( and as far as i could tell, he was a very good pizza maker) and john brescio who was in the vending machine business who saw this whole thing as an opportunity.  eleven or so years later, the pizza is not anywhere near as good, andrew was actually wanted by the fbi for fraud and was exposed because while he was doing interviews all over town and in national magazines as the owner of lombardis, he was also exposing himself in pictures to the authorities, and i don't even know if jerry lombardi is still affilitated because the knucklehead john is the one on tv and at pizza conventions. and now it is simply a factory, although the pizza is still better than most corner joints and certainly better than johns in the villages where i ate an embarrasing pizza 2 years ago at the pmq pizza show. maybe if evelyne slomon reads this, she could contribute more to the history of lombardis in the last ten years as i am not totally sure of some things, except the andrew went to jail and is probably out by now. and john brescio is a vending machine guy pretending to be a pizzamaker, as for jerry, i hope he is ok.

- ron

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2006, 03:39:40 PM »
Thanks Ron.It just confirms some of my unspoken thoughts and suspicions.I spoke with the owner of Johns some years ago and a family gathering in Arizona.I believe that he spent most of his time in Florida.I'm sure that has a lot to do with the reputed decline.As i'm sure i don't need to tell you,IMO an absentee owner in the food business is a recipe for disaster,
                                                      David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline nepa-pizza-snob

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 134
Re: Olive oil on pizza dough
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2006, 10:08:11 PM »
Total nubie here, but I wanted to ask a question abou the above statement "wood ovens burn hotter than coal ovens" is this
because of their construction or because they use less active fuel at any given time? Coal produces more BTU than wood - that is a given. I recall eating a pizza at Luzzo in New York - I don't recall 100%, but I believe he uses coal. We all counted - (with the kids) to 60. That pie was done on 58 seconds.