Author Topic: Why One Rise?  (Read 2510 times)

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Offline charbo

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Why One Rise?
« on: September 26, 2006, 07:09:34 PM »
Most pizza recipes call for one rise, whereas most other bread recipes call for two rises.
The single-risen dough is only partially fermented.  What is it about the single rise that makes pizza special?

cb


Offline varasano

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 07:22:57 PM »
Pizza has to be streched and this means that the gluten and bubble structure may be damaged, leading to a crust with little spring. A single rise minimizes this damage.

If the dough is risen long and slow, you get a full flavorful fermentation with one rise.

Offline John39840

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 07:33:34 PM »
Pizza has to be streched and this means that the gluten and bubble structure may be damaged, leading to a crust with little spring. A single rise minimizes this damage.

If the dough is risen long and slow, you get a full flavorful fermentation with one rise.

I agree. To me, it's the real difference between eating sauce and cheese on bread, and actual pizza. And if you have the chance for a long fermentation in the refrigerator, you'll even taste the most flavorful pizza imaginable.

Offline varasano

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 07:54:22 PM »
Here's a good example of spring from a single rise:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3792.msg31642.html#msg31642

Offline John39840

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 08:31:52 PM »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 10:29:49 PM »
The single-risen dough is only partially fermented.

charbo,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the above statement?

Peter

Offline charbo

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 09:37:36 PM »
I am not suggesting that we should be utilizing a second rise for most pizza.  I am simply trying to understand the essence of hearth pizza.

The differentiation between pizza dough and bread dough was explored at length in a memorable post by Pete in a thread started 26 May 06 by ernestrome under Starters.  The post notes that the second rise is often eliminated for pizza, but doesn’t say why. 

I am inclined to believe Jeff’s explanation, although I don’t completely understand it.

cb


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2006, 11:13:11 PM »
Cher,

I know that you have long been interested in the differences between pizza dough and bread dough so I wanted to be sure I understood your premise before replying.

I think the short answer is that a pizza dough can use more than one rise but that there are commercial considerations that benefit from only a single rise.

As you noted, most bread dough recipes call for more than one rise. Unless you are making a very wet dough, such as a ciabatta dough or a comparable artisan dough with very high hydration levels, there will usually be a couple of very pronounced rises of the dough. The first one is usually right after mixing and is the “fermentation” rise, which typically occurs at room temperature and during which time the dough increases significantly in volume (usually a double). Typically the dough is then punched down to expel old gases and to introduce new starch to the yeast, shaped into a ball or other form, maybe subjected to a brief intermediate rise, and then retarded for a relatively long period in the refrigerator to give the dough enough time to develop the fermentation byproducts that contribute to crust flavor, aroma and texture. The retarded dough is then subjected to a second significant rise at room temperature, called the “proofing” rise, before finalizing for baking. If desired, an autolyse or similar rest period, like a riposo, can also be used in the initial mix of the dough or later.

A similar process can be used to make a pizza dough. In fact, that is essentially what Bill/SFNM does with his Neapolitan and other doughs. After mixing/kneading his dough (for a brief period), it is subjected to a 20 minute riposo and then allowed to ferment in bulk at room temperature for about 8 hours. The dough is then subjected to a bulk retardation in the refrigerator for about 36 hours, following which the dough is divided, scaled and shaped into individual dough balls. The dough balls are then allowed to “proof” and rise a second time, for about 4-5 hours, and then formed into skins for baking. I don’t think that there is anyone who would say that Bill’s pizza crusts don’t have superb oven spring or a wonderful crumb structure. Obviously, the dough has enough gases and yeast at the time of baking, along with a very high oven temperature, to produce the exemplary results that Bill achieves. It also helps that Bill doesn’t overknead his dough. By contrast, most bread doughs depend on a long mix/knead time to develop the gluten structure. Bill’s gluten development is largely biochemical.

I personally think that the “single” rise that is common with pizza doughs is to a great degree to accommodate current practices within the industry for creating dough ball inventory and managing that inventory. Using small amounts of yeast and cold fermentation allows dough balls to be formed and put into dough boxes or proofing dough pans and to cold ferment without fear that the dough balls will rise too fast. Absent significant expansion of the dough balls, there is no need to punch them down or reshape them, which would otherwise be difficult to do with hundreds of dough balls and require an additional labor input and proper timing. In most cases, a cold fermented dough will rise a bit on the bench in preparation for shaping but it is usually not a long or significant rise (although the dough will usually hold for a few hours thereafter). At this point, it would not be wise in any event to reshape or reknead the dough, especially in a commercial environment, because of the potential for making the dough too elastic to work with in the normal time frame.

Even if the initial dough is fermented in bulk, similar to what Bill does, either at room temperature or in the cooler, or a combination of both, it is easy in a commercial environment to divide and scale the dough into individual dough pieces for subsequent use without having to subject the dough balls to another rise. The dough pieces can be shaped by hand but just as often the dough pieces are just run through sheeters or presses and put on screens, disks or into pans. If a skin requires proofing, as with certain pan and deep-dish pizzas, the skin is allowed to proof at room temperature or in a proofing box with humidity.

I suspect that there are ways of introducing multiple rise times in pizza dough, or more pronounced rises, but there is no particular need to do so in a commercial environment. We may do it as artisan pizza makers, as does Bill, but our motivations are different than most commercial pizza operators.

Peter

Offline buzz

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 10:45:03 AM »
The best thin crust I've ever had is from a place in the Chicago suburbs--they use AP flour, and three separate rises.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 10:52:09 AM »
The best thin crust I've ever had is from a place in the Chicago suburbs--they use AP flour, and three separate rises.
Which place is it Buzz?? what Burb is it in??   Chiguy


Offline jimd

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 11:33:45 AM »
While I am still on a steep learing curve, I tried for the first time a "single rise" this past weekend. In the past, I have used a bulk fermentation (usually overnight) and then about an 8-hour rise after shaping the dough balls.  The results are uneven, but getting better.

I recently bought Maggie Glazer's book, "Artisan Baking", where she provides a recipe and instruction for Neopolitan Pizza. (The book is a terrific book for bread---easy to follow, readable and enjoyable for the ameteur baker, with recipes that generally work out great.)

The recipe in the book calls for a single rise, and actually specifically indicates that a single rise is important to achieve an airy and light crust. With this advice, I made my dough per the usual instructions (I am using Varasano's great direction, which works very very well), and when finished with the kneading, I immediately portioned the dough balls and shaped them into mini-boules. I left them for about a 20 hour rise. When I was ready to prepare the pizza, I found the dough balls had significantly flattened out and were very hard to work with. As I attempted to stretch them, they basically just sagged severly, to the point of parts of the dough being much too thin and the edges being fat. I proceeded nonetheless, and found the resulting pizza had less flavor and an inferior texture to the dough I had made with  the bulk fermentation.

I have only done this once, so it could be that my result is an oddball occurence or that I did not control the other "variables" well enough to fairly compare, but my initial opinion is that my dough likely benefits from the bulk fermentation in terms of flavor, and, in terms of shaping, I think the opportunity to portion and shape the dough after a bulk fermentation may tighten the gluten a bit, making shaping later on more successful.

Jim

Offline buzz

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 08:50:20 AM »
ChiGuy--

Phillie's in Willowbrook--very expensive, but worth it!

Offline DKM

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Re: Why One Rise?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2006, 08:29:57 PM »
When I was ready to prepare the pizza, I found the dough balls had significantly flattened out and were very hard to work with.

Looks like the dough fell.

DKM
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