Author Topic: Question (favor) for Pete-zza  (Read 3194 times)

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Offline husker3in4

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Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« on: October 07, 2006, 01:42:16 AM »
Hi Pete, I realize I havent been here very long, but I have a favor to ask of you.
When you get some time, and nothing better to do, I would greatly appreciate it if you could post a recipe for  two 12" NY style crusts using no machines (no bread maker, mixer or food proccessor), and using KA Bread Flour. I know the KASL is the favorite around here, but I can't find it locally, and while I will probably order some to test it out, I figure I will usually be buying the KA Bread flour most of the time as it is readily available. I have a pizza stone, and am working on getting a proper pizza peel so I dont have to pray my pizza slides off my cutting board onto the stone correctly.

I currently have 6 12" balls of dough in my refrigerator from 3 different recipes, so that should keep me busy this weekend, so there is no hurry. It would just be really nice to have a recipe devised by the pro to what I can get in town.

Thanks!


Offline scott r

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2006, 03:17:51 AM »
I know I'm not Pete-zza, but we just don't get too many people interested in hand kneading around here so I just couldn't help but seize this opportunity to post one of my favorite links ever.  Make sure you get to page 2.   http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style.htm

Much more important than any normal recipe is the mixing and fermenting techniques.

Enzo's recipe may not be the best for KA Bread flour, but the kneading methodology has produced some of the best pizza I have ever made.  I am a huge fan of hand kneading, and even though I have a great mixer I hand knead whenever I have the time.  It's a workout, but well worth it.   Try combining a NY style lehmann (or whatever) recipe with these kneading methods and you won't be disappointed.



Now I really feel like I am hijacking this thread, sorry, but you could also use these numbers.  I just made four batches of NY style pizza using KA Bread flour and this recipe in the past week (varying mixing styles), and they were all excellent.  Just drop these numbers into the lehmann calculator. 

64%, Water
2.75%, Salt
1.75% sugar
3.5%, oil
0.08%, Instant dry yeast (IDY).

After mixing let the dough double, (how long will depend on room temp), and form dough balls.  This could take a good amount of time in the cooler months.  Let the dough double again or even triple and use.  If the dough has doubled the second time and you aren't ready to use it yet, you can put it in the fridge for no more than a day.
 
Another option would be to wait about an hour after mixing, form balls,  and put the dough in the fridge for a few days before use.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 01:47:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2006, 03:20:13 AM »
http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style.htm

Don't know why the link didn't highlight

Offline tonymark

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2006, 09:01:51 AM »
Here is good link for hand kneading.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3305.msg28540.html#msg28540

Ignore the cooler rise trick.  Just stick with a fridge rise for now.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2006, 09:14:37 AM »
husker3in4,

Scott is an accomplished pizza maker so you should by all means try out his dough formulation. The Lehmann calculator scott refers in his post is this one: http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html. However, before you can use it you will need to know the thickness factor. I believe the thickness factor scott is using is less than the usual one for the Lehmann dough formulation but he should be able to provide it. It will also be possible to calculate it knowing the total dough batch weight and number and sizes of pizzas, or a single dough ball weight and the corresponding pizza size.

I agree with scott that the Woodstone piece on dough preparation is a very good one. In fact, the punch and fold technique (shown in Images 4b and 4c under the “The Dough” section) is one that I often use in making Neapolitan style doughs. It usually works best when making a fairly large quantity of dough. It’s quite hard to use with, say, a single, fairly small dough ball since there really isn’t all that much to punch and fold.

In the past I have described how to make the basic Lehmann NY style dough using hand kneading. An example is Reply 68 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674. As you will note from that post, the dough formulation calls for using the KASL. At the time I wrote the post, I chose to use an amount of dough sufficient to make a 12” pizza. I selected that size because I felt it was doable and that trying to knead a larger dough ball by hand would be too difficult in light of King Arthur’s admonition not to hand knead a dough using the KASL flour. I have since discovered that it is possible to knead larger dough batches by hand, especially if using a high hydration (ratio of water to flour, by weight) and one or more autolyse or similar rest periods during the kneading process. Upon reflection, I have now come to believe that King Arthur’s admonition against hand kneading was intended to apply to making bread dough where, unlike pizza dough, it is important to use fairly long knead times to fully develop the gluten. Clearly, a machine will do a better job of that than a pair of human hands. Given the foregoing, you should have no problems hand kneading a dough made from the King Arthur bread flour, which is a lower protein flour than the KASL and forms less gluten in the finished dough. I think you should be able to use the same hydration percent also.

Using the baker’s percents and thickness factor (0.10) from Reply 68 noted above in the Lehmann dough calculator yields the following dough formulation for a 12” pizza (for two pizzas double the quantities):

Flour (100%):          193.15 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (63%):          121.69 g  |  4.29 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.38 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):            0.48 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (166%):           320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = 0.1

If you would like a thinner or thicker crust, you can easily modify the above results by using a smaller or larger thickness factor, respectively, in the dough calculator. Once you have scott’s thickness factor for his dough formulation you can also use that in the Lehmann dough calculator, along with scott’s particular set of baker’s percents. 

As much as I like the Lehmann dough formulation and frequently refer people to it, I think you should try other NY styles also, including the one posted by scott. That’s perhaps the best way to learn about the many aspects and variations of pizza making. And it also opens up new avenues of pizza enjoyment. And it doesn’t bother me if people like another NY style better than the Lehmann NY style. The Lehmann dough formulation has been a wonderful vehicle for me to experiment with and learn and share with others. In the final analysis, it’s all about personal preference and personal taste. In this vein, you may also want to take a look at the Canadave NY style, another one of my favorites, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19124.html#msg19124. As you will see from that thread, I determined the baker’s percents and thickness factor for Canadave’s dough formulation, for the original crust thickness and also for a thinner version. These numbers can be plugged into the Lehmann dough calculator to make any size and number of pizzas (up to a maximum of 99) you’d like. You will also see a post where I described hand kneading a dough for a 16” pizza using the KASL. I can refer you to other NY styles also if you’d like, including "NY-thin style" versions of Randy's American style pizza, also a personal favorite.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 10:15:07 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline iceman3876

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2006, 12:30:13 PM »
Pete sure has bailed me out of some pizza disasters before. Thanks for being so helpful Pete. You are one of a kind...and thats all good.

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2006, 11:40:11 PM »
Hi Pete, I experimented with a recipe based on the TL dough that you posted in another thread and it turned out pretty good, even using the KA bread flour. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674) Thanks for posting the converted recipe in this thread, but I still have no idea how many cups that .43lbs of flour equals, same with the other measurements. Even then, what would be the process after the ingredients are mixed? How long to refrigerate, bench rise etc?

Also, does anyone have a recipe for a good sauce using ingredients that could be found at most of the larger chain grocery stores? I have a decent recipe now, but it's nothing special.

Thanks again

Offline Bubba Kuhn

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2006, 03:19:11 AM »
Sorry for butting in here..........
You may want to try http://www.homespunpizza.com
Not only is there a hand kneaded dough recipe for hand tossed New York Style pizza and there is also a New York Style sauce recipe made from any groceries store.

Bear in mind when New York Style Pizza was becoming famous. No one used fresh herbs, garlic, mozzarella, mushrooms, peppers or pineapple or sundried tomato's.  Asking for chicken, goat cheese, or a white sauce would get you tossed out on your butt.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2006, 10:51:44 AM »
husker3in4,

As you will note from the table of ingredients I posted earlier, all of the ingredients are specified by volumes except for the flour and water. The reason the flour is given only by weight is because no two people measure out flour by volume in exactly the same way. Some are light handed and some are heavy handed. Also, a lightly packed cup of flour will not weigh the same (it will be less) as a densely packed cup of flour, and different flours have different weights. The water is given by weight because, again, no two people measure out a cup of water by volume in the same way. Weight is exact. That is why I usually recommend that people who intend to make a lot of pizzas and to follow recipes based on weights purchase a good digital scale.

The rest of the ingredients are given by volumes. Since those quantities are exact also, you will have to convert them to the nearest fraction of a teaspoon. For example, 0.41 t. of oil is a bit less than 1/2 t. Similarly, 0.61 t. of salt is a bit less than 5/8 t., and 0.16 t. IDY is a bit more than 1/8 t. The numbers produced by the program are exact for two reasons: because some people have special scales that can weigh very small amounts of lightweight ingredients like salt and yeast, and because it would be difficult to program the software to round out every number to the nearest fraction of a teaspoon, tablespoon, cup, etc.

To assist you currently with the flour and water quantities, I have converted the flour and water in the dough formulation I posted to volumes. For the flour (6.81 oz.), I get 1 1/2 c. plus 3 T. For you to measure out these quantities, I suggest that you do the following: 1) Start by stirring the flour in the flour bag with a large tablespoon; 2) scoop flour from the bag with the tablespoon into standard measuring cups (the ones without lips) and measuring spoons, starting with the one-cup size and working down and filling them to the point of overflowing without tamping or shaking the cups/spoons; and 3) level off the tops of the measuring cups/spoons with the flat back edge of a kitchen knife. In your case, you will see that you will use the 1-cup and 1/2-cup measuring cups, and the tablespoon-size measuring spoon.

For the water, 4.29 ounces converts to between 1/2-cup and 5/8-cup when the measuring cup (e.g. glass Pyrex) is viewed on a flat surface at eye level.

You will note if you go back and reread the post you mentioned in your last post that I described how to process the dough once it has been properly kneaded. I mentioned 24 hours in the refrigerator and a 1 1/4 hour bench rise. These are just suggestions. You should be able to go to 2 to 3 days cold fermentation in most cases without a problem if you follow the recommendations closely, with particular emphasis on getting the finished dough temperature at the recommended value. The bench time rise will vary depending on the time of year, that is, whether your kitchen is on the hot or cold side, but 1-2 hours is about average. I might add that if you plan on making more than one dough ball, my practice is to divide the dough into two equal-size dough balls before placing them in the refrigerator.

To assist you further, I would like to suggest that you take a look at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503. This thread is devoted to using a stand mixer to make a Lehmann NY style dough but there are a lot of other tips that I think you will find useful, from start to finish.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 12:21:56 AM »
Thanks for the replies.

Bubba, thanks for the link, but I'm not sure I wanna fork up $35 for that site without seeing anything inside it. I've got 2 kids, child support and a greedy ex-wife to deal with, lol. That's why I like this site, its free and has a boatload of info and alot of helpful people. Thanks for the suggestion tho.

Pete, thanks for the conversions. I appreciate the exact amounts, but I want to be able to make pizza at home without spending a bunch of money on various tools. I dont have the bucks for a stand mixer (do the recipes refer to a hook attachement for those things?) or digital scales etc. I realize that many people here are very serious about their pizza, and I appreciate that, otherwise this site wouldnt be what it is. I just wanna make a tasty pizza with mainly what I already have, so using the conversions you just gave me will help alot.  For example, before coming to this site, I would make my pizza on the cold pizza stone, cook it and wonder how the pizza stone was better than a pan! Doh! Once I preheated the stone and cooked at 500 degrees, I saw the difference bigtime, lol. Now I just need to get down to lowe's and get some quarry stones. Cheaper than a cooking stone and does the same job. I should be able to get those and a decent peel for under $25 together. The mixing and kneeding I can do with some elbow grease :)

I have already made immensly better crusts by reading on this site for 2 weeks, thanks a bunch.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 08:00:34 AM »
husker3in4,

There are a lot of hand kneaders on the forum, some of whom have machines and actually prefer hand kneading over the machines. And, yes, the attachment that does the kneading in most stand mixers, such as the KitchenAid, is called a "dough hook".

Please let me know if I can be of further help. Being able to make your own pizzas at home can save you a lot of money.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 06:55:38 PM »
Thanks pete, do you typically use a dough docker on your dough? Use a fork? or not bother with it at all?

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2006, 07:59:18 PM »
husker3in4,

I have a docker that I have used on occasion, mainly for pre-baking crusts, including cracker-type and other thin crusts. Over the summer, when it was brutally hot in Texas, I used the docker in the course of pre-baking some Lehmann dough skins. The skins were baked entirely on a pizza screen, which meant that I didn’t have to heat up a pizza stone to 500-550 degrees F for about an hour and then have to tolerate the residual heat during the cooling down of the stone. The docker was used to dock the skins prior to pre-baking them.

I described the experiments at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720 (Reply 369), and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27372.html#msg27372 (Reply 424). Overall, I was happy with the results. In the first link referenced above, you will see the docker I used, although as I mentioned in the above posts you can use a kitchen fork instead if you don’t have a docker. Professionals use dockers to minimize bubbling in the crust, especially if the operator is using dough that is cold at the time of shaping rather than letting the skins warm up sufficiently to avoid the bubbling problem. Some operators use dockers as a matter of routine on all of their skins. If you let your dough get sufficient fermentation (at least a day) and let the dough balls warm up to around 60 degrees F or more before shaping and stretching, you shouldn’t need a docker.

Peter

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2006, 09:04:07 PM »
I must agree with Scott here....

The Very best pizza dough you can make is Hand-Kneeded as you have absolute and total control.  Most of us don't have the time for it(including myself) so we cheat with lil hobarts and such. We then add the "autolyse" cycle in an attempt to build gluten that is naturally buuilt in hand kneeding.  If you make your dough old-school starting with a big mound of flour, spreading out the flour and poking that "volcano crater" in it that ya pour the water into... the time it takes to properly incorporate your flour with your water is the "autolyse" cycle in hand made dough.  It happens with hand-made dough all by itself as it takes time to gradually stir and incorporate the the raw flour into your lil crater.  If you kneed by hand, your dough will surpass all of ours who use mixers and autolyse cycles and such.  Do not ever think you need a power mixer to make great dough as we all wish we had the time (and the forearms) to make it the "real way". 

As some here who write books and such will attest to... The old school pizza making was about apprenticeship and if ya made it past gathering sticks and tending the oven you're next step up was making the dough.  I am sure that after they graduated from dough making they had arms that Popeye would be envious of. 

Best to ya & keep on hand kneeding!

Would love to see a pic of oen of your pies.

PIZZA SHARK 



   

Offline mivler

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 06:11:14 AM »
Peter,

Above you mentioned a NY Style posted by Scott

"As much as I like the Lehmann dough formulation and frequently refer people to it, I think you should try other NY styles also, including the one posted by scott."

Can you post a link to this recipe, I can't seem to find it.

Thanks,

Michael

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 08:54:03 AM »
Michael,

I was referring to the recipe scott posted in Reply 1 above. You will need the thickness factor if you plan to use the Lehmann dough calculating tool so if scott can provide the thickness factor, or else tell us the dough ball weight he uses and the corresponding pizza size, we should be able to calculate it.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2006, 12:28:09 PM »
guys, I was just reviewing the numbers and I realized that the above recipe shows much more yeast than I have been using.  Peter, maybe you can go back and fix my posts for me?   I am actually using  0.08 % IDY.  If you type that into the lehmann calculator you should be able to do some slow long room temp rises.   Since the weather is getting cooler now, and I came up with this recipe in the summer, you could up that number to move things along a little faster.  I wouldn't go much higher than 0.1% with IDY.   You want to get at least five hours with the first rise, then into the fridge for a day, then another few hours before use.  Let the dough at least double, but no more than triple in the first rise, then double in the second rise before use.

The range of thickness factors in the lehmann calculator is a perfect place to start.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 01:54:19 PM »
scott,

As you requested, I have gone back to Reply 1 and changed the amount of yeast in your dough formulation to 0.08%. Is that the only dough formulation you want me to correct?

I'm somewhat surprised that you can get away with using so little IDY yet get a tripling and a doubling of the dough. For a 14" pizza using the baker's percents you provided, and using a 0.10 thickness factor in the Lehmann tool, the IDY comes to 7/100 t. That's only a few grains between the thumb and forefinger. Does that sound right to you?

Peter
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 07:30:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 03:41:36 PM »
well, I have to admit I never would make a batch that small because of the inability to measure properly.   I usually do a batch based on 750g of water and use a heaping 1/4 teaspoon of yeast.  I suppose you could cut the recipe in half and easily measure 1/8th of a teaspoon, but I wouldn't recommend going much smaller than that.

You would be surprised at how much rising and spring I get!  This dough is the same one I pictured where Jeff V started to rethink his theories based on the excellent oven spring I was able to achieve.

My normal Neapolitan room temp doughs actually use even less IDY than this one.  I go for 1/4tsp of yeast per 1000g of water for those!  The key is to wait wait wait for the dough to double, then double again before use.

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Re: Question (favor) for Pete-zza
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 04:04:20 PM »
scott,

Your post reminded me of some of Marco's early Neapolitan dough recommendations in which the yeast quantity when converted from fresh yeast to instant dry yeast (IDY) came to about 0.05% with respect to the weight of flour and 0.08% with respect to the weight of water. At the time, Marco cautioned me, as did Pieguy on another occasion, about not trying to make single dough balls. I agree with you, and based on my own experience, it is perhaps wiser to use more IDY if only single dough balls are made.

Your recent posts are also good reminders that it is important when following specific dough formulations to take the time of year into account. With cooler weather ahead, it is a good idea to increase the yeast amount a bit, or use warmer water, or increase the hydration a percent or two, or use a bit less salt--or some combination of these--to speed up the rate and extent of fermentation. This is not as easy as it may sound. To master the process takes a lot of experience.

Peter


 

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