Author Topic: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result  (Read 21228 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2006, 04:11:15 PM »
Thanks Peter.  I was just completely off by adding my commercial yeast initially - which probably defeats the purpose of an autolyse.

Nope, not according to Peter and my experience.  I though so too and asked a while back.  It is not an issue.  Rather than put your yeast in the cold water though, add it to the flour, so there is not quite as much cold shock to the yeast.  My experience is that as long as the dough as a few days in the fridge, it'll be fine.

Jack


Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2006, 05:17:03 PM »
I agree.  I have not noticed a big difference between adding the yeast at first or not.  This is not such a big deal.

Yes it gives your dough a little extra fermentation time, but that's about it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2006, 07:13:31 PM »
I have not noticed a big difference between adding the yeast at first or not. This is not such a big deal.

Yes it gives your dough a little extra fermentation time, but that's about it.

I think the difference may be material but I am not sure I can prove it, at least not yet. I also think it depends on the duration of the autolyse and whether the dough goes through another rest period before going into the refrigerator.

This is a subject that I have been thinking about quite a bit recently, especially after the exchange I had with member petesopizza at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3587.msg30225.html#msg30225. petesopizza believes that adding the yeast later is better than adding it sooner, so long as the finished dough is given a few days of cold fermentation. Member giotto was also a proponent of the late addition of the yeast. In his case, and petesopizza’s case as well, the yeast in question was active dry yeast, not IDY. If the case for later addition of the yeast holds in the absence of an autolyse, I believe it should hold for the autolyse case also.

For purposes of this discussion, let us first assume that the yeast is added at the beginning of the autolyse. If the autolyse period is fairly long, say, around 20-30 minutes (which is typical), and was preceded by a reasonable amount of mixing, then it seems to me that the yeast, and especially instant dry yeast (IDY), will have been sufficiently activated by the liquid (water) and provided with sufficient oxygen (through the initial mixing) to start to reproduce (bud). With sufficient agitation and dispersion of the yeast, as occurs with the initial mixing in a fairly liquid environment, it will reproduce better. At some point, the process goes from aerobic to anaerobic (from oxygen to no oxygen) and fermentation starts and carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol are produced by the fermentation. It does not take much to get the IDY activated because it is of relatively small particle size (smaller than ADY), it has more active cells (fewer dead cells than ADY), and is of a strain and shape that is conducive to faster action so long as it is not shocked by cold water (as Jack has noted). Once serious kneading begins, the IDY will continue to ferment the sugars in the dough and, as the heat of machine friction increases, the fermentation process will accelerate accordingly.

Now, consider the case where the IDY is added at the end of the autolyse. In this scenario, and all else being equal, the IDY will still activate once it is added to the dough because of the presence of the water, as before, but if there isn't enough oxygen in the dough at this time to promote healthy reproduction of the yeast, the yeast may instead use the sugars in the dough to produce carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol rather than for reproduction purposes. From what I have read, it takes about twenty minutes for the yeast to bud (reproduce). If the duration of the knead is less than twenty minutes, which it seems it should be because of the effects of the autolyse to reduce total mix time, then the yeast energy levels should be reduced and the rate and extent of fermentation should be pegged at lower levels than for the first example. Also, the finished dough should be subjected to less machine frictional heat because of the shorter mix time. Moreover, if the dough goes into the refrigerator immediately, rather than after a second rest period, the rate and extent of fermentation will be further reduced. The difference in the useful lives of the two doughs in my two examples may be far more than the duration of the autolyse period(s). Maybe it is possible that adding the yeast to the dough at the end rather than the beginning will buy a couple of days more of useful life.

If my assumptions and analysis are correct and a materially longer fermentation time is desired, then it may be better to add the yeast toward the end of the process rather than at the beginning.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 11:19:27 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2006, 09:32:06 PM »

On second look at your list I think that your prospective changes would be perfect.  Eventually some day also try lowering the hydration as well and see what you think.


Scott, I'll probably use a 60% hydration for this weeks batch.

I really do appreciate everyones comments and I'm just trying to get my pizza to the best state I can.  Like many of you I work all week thinking about pizza and spend much of my day looking forward to making my next batch for the weekend.  With my new wood burning oven I'm even more excited.  Even though I've been making pizza for 15 years in a home oven with the new oven and new flour it's like starting over again - and great fun.

A couple of thoughts...
- oven temp - even though I have very little experience with this it's pretty clear that more than a 3 minute pizza is too long - just based on how the dough cooks relative to the cheese.  I will be shooting for a 2 1/2 minute pizza which is probably 800 degrees on the floor near the coals in my particular oven
- wood burning oven vs home oven - in my home oven everything was consistent; the same pizza was produced week after week.  The wood burning oven seems to require more of an "artistry" and hopefully I will learn the artistry.  I really get the sense that you need to "feel" your way around heat management.  No one had a fireplace in Brooklyn growing up so this whole wood-thing is new.
- I'm a believer (similar to most on this site) that less is more.  The less I add to the ingredients the better.  I'm sticking with that one.

Finally, if you get a wood burning oven - don't tell anyone.  I made the mistake of letting some of my neighbors know and now everyone wants to come over but I'm still in my beginning stages of learning.  Funny - just in the last two weeks we've been invited over several neighbors houses for dinner - I assume in hope of reciprocity.   I can't wait to have everyone over but I'm still in my learning stage.


Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2006, 10:06:34 PM »
Best of luck Arthur, i'm sure you'll get the hang of it in no time and have fun on the new journey,
               David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2006, 08:12:44 AM »
Arthur, what type of wood oven did you buy, build ,install, I want one really bad, but dont know which way to do it.  just curious.  -marc

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2006, 09:09:50 AM »
widespreadpizza,

I bought a fornobravo casa90 oven.  You can see it in my post here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3842.0.html

As I mention in the post I'm just kind of handy (can do basic things around the house) but never before used concrete or even a power saw.  Putting together the oven was a great experience.  I am having someone else finish the oven (with a stone facade) but I would really recommend the fornobravo oven and putting it together yourself.  I'm sure there could be a lot of discussion on prefab ovens vs building one from scratch but for me I didn't feel comfortable building one from scratch.   I had been thinking and talking about an oven for so long and all I can say is that I wish I did it sooner. 

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2006, 12:17:14 PM »
hey there again Arthur, thanks for the link.  Ive been looking at that line on and off.  Would you care to elaborate for me on all of the exta materials, prices venting accecories, etc.  I would appreciate it. thanks-marc

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2006, 02:01:19 PM »
Marc,

Here's a link to the install instructions:
http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza_oven_installation/install_home.html

I followed these exactly as stated.  Again I have the casa series.   I bought the casa90 oven, 3 piece chimney system and 3 bags of refrax mortar (and you get some cool tools/peels with the oven).  I don't remember the exact price for everything (looks like $2200 for the oven + $200 or so for the other things) but there was an additional cost ($500?) to ship the 700 pounds of oven from CA to VA.  I think they have their latest prices on the site.  All other materials I bought from home depot.

I would check with James at fornobravo for delivery fees to your state.  He was a great help with any building questions I had as well.  He's a poster on this site:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=341

The materials I had to buy included:
- 60 or so concrete blocks (they are like $1-$2 each)
- 30 bags or so of concrete ($3 -$4 each?)
- 3 big bags of vermiculite ($20 each)
- angle iron ($20)
- cement ($20)
- circular saw (didn't have one- $40)
- rebar (maybe $10-$20)
- wood (2x4s and 2x8) - maybe $50 for the lot?
- good level (had that)

Home depot delivers in my area for $75 no matter how much you buy so that was useful to get the materials to my house.

There's probably some other stuff but not much more.  Before the project I didn't even know what rebar was (and certainly not vermiculite or refrax or ...) so don't worry if it seems scary.  You should check out other competitors.  Honestly I went with fornobravo mostly because I felt like James was going to answer my million questions and he did. 

Offline dmun

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2006, 03:01:41 PM »
The good news about Forno Bravo is that you can get a ton of information and support on their forum:

http://fornobravo.com/forum/

Even if you want to build your own, rather than buy a pre-made oven.

I'm building a rather elaborate variation:

http://fornobravo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=765

and I find that building the structure is more work than building the oven.


Offline scpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2006, 04:56:05 PM »
I'd suggest getting the oven up to around 900F on the floor.   My measurement of UPN's wood burning oven showed a gradient between 800F at the farthest point of the floor to 1000F right beside the coals.

In a home oven I recently cooked pizza at 850F-900F for 1:30 (Caputo flour, 20 minute knead, 62% hydration, natural yeast) and produced a profoundly lighter crust than I ever did at 750F.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2006, 02:01:59 PM »
thnaks for the response arthur, I like to know what im getting into.  Keep us posted on your results as you go along ,  so i can convice the wife its worth it.  -marc

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2006, 07:07:51 PM »
Well I made a few (three different) batches on Thursday night and ate them last night.   I realized that I wasn't really looking for such an airy result - which I did get with one the batches.  That one batch was airy and doughy, but not as tasty.  I really was just looking for a less dense dough but not necessary filled with lots of air pockets.

The best results I had were with my warm rise.  I did a warm rise overnight (probably 8 hours) and then (made dough balls and) put the dough into the refridgerator up to 2 hours before I baked the pizza.  With the warm rise I used a very small amount of yeast.

I also did a 20 minute mix rather than a 10 minute mix.  That certainly had a different (and I would say better) impact.

The key things that made an impact on the quality of my best dough for the night were:
- I bought a new bag of SAF IDY yeast (didn't hurt)
- mixed 20 minutes instead of 10.  For the most of that 20 minutes the dough is "twirling" on its end such that the dough is wet enough to be twirling and not pounding against the sides or stuck on the dough hook.
- warm rise
- higher oven temp - approx. 850 on the floor near the coals.

I would have to say the most important of these might have been the oven temp.  Getting the pizza to bake in 2-2 1/2 minutes in a hotter oven - along with my new warm rise recipe produces a crust that was crunchy on the outside, soft on the inside and very tasty.  My best yet, but I'm still learning.   I'm going to stick with the warm rise dough recipe as my new standard and move towards a starter - which I ordered last week from sourdo.com

I'm also getting better with my oven.  Although it would seem obvious that adding more wood gets the oven hotter, for some reason when you have a wood oven you tend not to want to overload the oven with too much wood.  I got my oven up to the 850 floor temp after a while by adding more wood at the right time.  Still learning in this area since some of the same pies where not baked in such a hot oven and they just didn't come out as well.

Sorry no pictures this time.  I'll take some next time.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 07:50:07 PM by Arthur »

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2006, 07:44:03 AM »
Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2006, 08:09:26 AM »
Jim,

I'm not familiar with the mixer you have, but with my mixer (Santos fork mixer), the dough is kneaded relatively slowly. I can knead highly hydrated doughs for over 40 minutes (although I never knead pizza dough nearly that long) and the temperature barely rises.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2006, 08:22:51 AM »
Jim,

The recitation of total knead time (in this case, 20 minutes) doesn't mean much without knowing the type of mixer used, the size of the mixer bowl, the mixer speed(s) used, the dough batch size, hydration, etc.

Also, with 00 flour, you will sometimes see instructions for kneading 00 doughs for fairly long times, on the assumption that the long knead times are needed to fully develop the lower levels of gluten in that flour. However, often those instructions are based on practices used in Italy where the machines used are different than the machines most commonly used in the U.S., such as commercial Hobarts. I am not familiar with your particular mixer, but I suspect that you would have to adapt your mix speeds and times to accommodate a 00 dough to properly develop the gluten while not overheating the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 08:26:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2006, 08:32:35 AM »
Bill, Peter,

Thanks for the good clarification.  Esmach is a European company that makes large scale bakery equipment all over the EU.  The SP5, made in Italy, is the smallest mixer they offer.  It's a spiral mixer with a dough hook, and I've found it's nowhere near as likely to overheat dough as the KA 600 I used to own before it self destructed.

Mine is a start-up microbakery, so I'm not in the league for a fork mixer, though I'd love to have one.

If anybody's interested, I could forward info on the SP5.  It's a good piece of gear.

Seems like I should simply adapt my bread dough procedures to Caputo and start experimenting.

Great forum.  Thanks.

Jim
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2006, 08:43:36 AM »
Jim,

As a follow-up to my recent post, you might find this one of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13791.html#msg13791 (Reply 162). You should also note pizzanapoletana's (Marco) comments in Reply 164 (and mine at Reply 165).

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2006, 08:56:33 AM »
I would say that the spiral mixer is the second worst mixer for neapolitan dough straight after the planetary one. It does overheat and "harden" the dough too much.

Ciao

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2006, 09:07:28 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for the guidance.  All of it seems quite logical and dependant on experience and experimentation.  I'll follow along.

Regarding the spiral mixer; well, perhaps.  The SP5 is light years ahead of the KA, that's a certainty.  I haven't found that my bread doughs have suffered from it, though I'm very careful about knead times, temperatures, and I always finish-knead my doughs on the bench to achieve a well developed window pane test for gluten structure.  Still, this might be an issue with Caputo and pizza dough.  Don't know yet.

Had I the resources and the space, I would certainly opt for a fork mixer.  Right now, I've got neither.

Jim
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