Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 419068 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1075 on: September 07, 2016, 04:24:11 PM »
Ovenray,

I believe that fresh milk is avoided in part because it is easier and more convenient to use dry milk powder but also because there may be food safety issues if fresh milk is not properly refrigerated. Also, Tom Lehmann says that one should scald fresh milk and cool it before adding it to the dough. This can be a real pain. Notwithstanding this advice, I saw a Vito & Nick's video some time ago and it showed the owner pouring milk out of a jug. Milk is also expensive and it may be cheaper and more convenient to use whey (a heat treated form) if it is browning of the crust that is desired. In Pizza Hut's case, they went to frozen dough and, in so doing, it jettisoned the dry milk powder and dry buttermilk powder.

If you are interested, this is a pretty good PMQ Think Tank thread on the subject of use of milk in pizza dough:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/milk-in-dough.407/

Papa John's avoids the kinds of issues involving the use of milk products or whey by using a lot of sugar in the dough. So, there is plenty of sugars available at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. But at the risk of people, like Tom's wife, who may find the crust too sweet.

As an aside, Donatos also used to use fresh eggs. It still lists whole eggs in its ingredients statements but it is not clear whether the eggs are fresh or dried (the milk they now use is dry milk). Years ago, they touted the nutritional and healthful effects of fresh milk and eggs but stopped using that strategy somewhere along the line--maybe when eggs fell out of favor because of their alleged high cholesterol content and whole milk was frowned upon because of its high fat levels.

Peter

Offline Ovenray

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1076 on: September 07, 2016, 04:40:33 PM »
Food safety is definitely an item. The scalding of milk however isnt neccessary when using milk that has allready been pasteurized while the bacteria and enzymes allready have been killed/destroyed during pasteurization.

Thanks for the information and for the link Pete-zza!
I'm grateful for all things learned from you folks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1077 on: September 07, 2016, 06:36:58 PM »
Food safety is definitely an item. The scalding of milk however isnt neccessary when using milk that has allready been pasteurized while the bacteria and enzymes allready have been killed/destroyed during pasteurization.
Ovenray,

Pasteurization of milk had been around since about 1900 from what I can tell, so I tend to doubt that Tom Lehmann, as a fifty-year veteran of the American Institute of Baking, would not know that and would nonetheless suggest scalding of the milk if it is to be used in dough. As I understand it, scalding takes place at a temperature several degrees above the temperature of pasteurization. Both methods kill bacteria and disable certain enzymes but scalding also disables or denatures the undenatured proteins in milk that can cause the types of problems in the dough that Tom talked about.

Peter

Offline Ovenray

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1078 on: September 07, 2016, 07:20:35 PM »
Pasteurization of milk had been around since about 1900 from what I can tell, so I tend to doubt that Tom Lehmann, as a fifty-year veteran of the American Institute of Baking, would not know that and would nonetheless suggest scalding of the milk if it is to be used in dough. As I understand it, scalding takes place at a temperature several degrees above the temperature of pasteurization. Both methods kill bacteria and disable certain enzymes but scalding also disables or denatures the undenatured proteins in milk that can cause the types of problems in the dough that Tom talked about.

The way I understand it scalding temperature is about 82 celcius while pasteurizing happens at 72 and while there's a difference in temperature both methods do the same except for the denaturing. Since I do not have the milage Tom Lehman has, nor his scientific background, I just have to take his (and therefor your) word (science) for it, scalding it is :)
I'm grateful for all things learned from you folks.

Online MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1079 on: September 28, 2016, 09:53:24 AM »
If I were to make 2 x 14 pizza's

Is it best to separate the dough into two balls before fermenting

Or one big ball, take out fridge, shape into two balls and leave at room temp for a few hours?


« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 10:14:02 AM by MadMatt »

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1080 on: September 28, 2016, 10:30:24 AM »
If it's going to be in the fridge for just a day or two, ball the dough first. Balling "a few hours" before the bake can make opening the dough a real challenge. If I'm doing a long CF, I like to ball the night before (the bulk dough takes less fridge space for the long fermentation).
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1081 on: September 29, 2016, 09:06:22 PM »
I made it earlier (about 14 hours ago) in the fridge, it's already  risen loads

Doing the 2 day fermentation


I realised something and explains some mishaps in the past

I looked on the back of the dried active yeast I use, and it says 1 level tablespoon is 15g!  according to the converter I use 1 tablespoon is   8.50 grams :\

so this could mean what I tried to attempt with my 1/8 and 1/4 tsp to get just under 1g,  I may in fact have near twice as much than I need...

It's Alissons brand dried active yeast they sell in the UK




[edit]  Just tried it,  using a 15ml tablespoon it came to 14g on my cheapy scales

:(


1 tsp is 5g, 1 tablespoon 15g

Very different to the conversion I used.

I calculated that I must have used around 2g of yeast, meaning it would probably be a 24 hour dough..  though I think it's rising too fast for that.

Too bad I'm out tomorrow, any way I can save it for saturday?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 09:34:20 PM by MadMatt »

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1082 on: Yesterday at 12:43:49 AM »
I think at this point, freezing is your best bet. Move the dough to the fridge Friday night to defrost slowly.
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Online MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1083 on: Yesterday at 08:09:07 AM »
Change of plans I'm in today and just made it.

This is for the 14" right?

Flour (100%):339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs

Looks a lot thinner than all of yours.

A bit messy, I only had a bit of pepperoni and chortizo left over.  I went with mozarella and a small amount of mature cheddar. :D

I baked at 240 (fan oven)        browned very nicely as you can see.

I par baked the base for a few minutes next time I'll try without .

Didn't have anything other than a bit of flour to dust it. I'll have to get some semolina or cornmeal. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1084 on: Yesterday at 10:12:31 AM »
Change of plans I'm in today and just made it.

This is for the 14" right?

Flour (100%):339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs

Looks a lot thinner than all of yours.


A bit messy, I only had a bit of pepperoni and chortizo left over.  I went with mozarella and a small amount of mature cheddar. :D



I baked at 240 (fan oven)        browned very nicely as you can see.

I par baked the base for a few minutes next time I'll try without .

Didn't have anything other than a bit of flour to dust it. I'll have to get some semolina or cornmeal.
MadMatt,

I assume you are referring to the amount of flour as called for in the post at Reply 585 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667.

Although the amount of dough for the formulation in Reply 585 is less than what I had used early on in the thread, i.e., 21 or 22 ounces, I do not believe that your crust looks thinner because of the reduced amount of dough. Rather, I think it is possible that your oven temperature, at 240 degrees C (464 degrees F), may have been too low. Normally, my practice is to use around 260-275 degrees C (500-525 degrees F). There may be other factors that could have affected your dough such as a low protein content of the flour you used, the way the dough was mixed, how the dough was fermented, how the pizza was baked, and so on.

It might help if you tell us how you made and managed the dough and what bake protocol you used beyond the bake temperature, such as the rack position you used, bake time, etc.

The above aside, I think your pizza looks pretty good.

Peter

Online MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1085 on: Yesterday at 12:51:06 PM »
MadMatt,

I assume you are referring to the amount of flour as called for in the post at Reply 585 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667.

Although the amount of dough for the formulation in Reply 585 is less than what I had used early on in the thread, i.e., 21 or 22 ounces, I do not believe that your crust looks thinner because of the reduced amount of dough. Rather, I think it is possible that your oven temperature, at 240 degrees C (464 degrees F), may have been too low. Normally, my practice is to use around 260-275 degrees C (500-525 degrees F). There may be other factors that could have affected your dough such as a low protein content of the flour you used, the way the dough was mixed, how the dough was fermented, how the pizza was baked, and so on.

It might help if you tell us how you made and managed the dough and what bake protocol you used beyond the bake temperature, such as the rack position you used, bake time, etc.

The above aside, I think your pizza looks pretty good.

Peter

Thanks for helping Pete-zza. 

Yep that's the recipe, I picked it because it's the 48 hour one correct? but as you see from my previous posts, it ended up being a 24 hour dough because I used too much yeast.   

How come that 24 hour recipe is less than the others, was it closer to the papa john's you are replicating? 

I'm only using 12.5% bread flour, there's not much choice here in the UK at least not in the supermarkets.  I've heard people try Allisons super strong flour (14%) with poor results.      I could try adding some vital wheat gluten to up the protein level?  I see there's a calculator for that.     I also put in a little bit of   Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) about 1/8 tsp which shouldn't be too much considering what some put in their bread.   I noticed instant yeast often contains some ascrobic acid, while dried active which I use contains none.   

I par-baked the base for about 2-3 minutes on he top shelf at 240c out of fear it might be soggy.   Could that have caused it?  It did take me longer than I had hoped to put the toppings and throw it back in the oven.  I believe I had it in there for around 8-10 minutes after returning to the oven.     So 10-13 minutes total cook time. 

I used a brand new seasoned aluminium pizza screen as you can tell by the bottom of the crust the pizza came off easily.    :)

Here is my oven

http://www.belling.co.uk/products/cooking/freestanding-range-cookers/db4-90dft/444441047/

Doesn't look like this, or most British ovens even go past 240c..  :(

Terrible oven for pizza for the size alone. I have to use the left oven and can only fit 14" pizza's in it but that's big enough for me. 

So some changes I can make..

Up the gluten level

Preheat oven longer

Not par-bake? 

I don't think my kneading is an issue it all came together nicely and smoother than my usual doughs.

I used largely the stretch and fold method, and mixed in a little of the last kneading method. Anyone know the name for this?

https://youtu.be/n7jBrDWJOds?t=76

Oh I just remembered something.     I had an lot of big air bubbles pop up and opened the oven a few times to pop them. I think next time I'll use a docker before putting it in.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1086 on: Today at 09:36:37 AM »
The version of  the PJ clone dough that you used, at Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667, is indeed a two-day dough. I believe that that version may be a bit more accurate than the version given at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217, but the differences may not be noticeable in the final product. But, either way, the two-day PJ clone doughs are among the most popular on the forum and yield pizzas that are quite close in my opinion and to my palate to the PJ pizzas that can take several days to make. I came up with the two-day versions for a couple of reasons. First, there are members who do not want to wait from 5-8 days to make their PJ clone pizzas. Second, I discovered that members were having problems making a dough that is used after 5-8 days (some PJ pizza operators can squeeze nine days out of their doughs) using their home refrigerators where the doors are opened so many times over the 5-8 days that their doughs were not optimum at the end of the 5-8 day window. This is a case where if one has a spare refrigerator to dedicate to the long cold fermentation window that would be ideal. In the U.S., many people have spare refrigerators in their garages. They often tend to be loaded with beer ;D, but space should still be available for a few dough balls.

As for the flour to use, in the UK where you are located there are many sources of flours that I think should work for you in making clone PJ doughs We don't know exactly the protein content of the flour that PJ uses because the flour they use is milled exclusively for them. But I believe that the protein content is under 14%, quite likely in the 13.3-13.6% range. In your case, I suggest that you take a look at the UK sources of flours in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012. In that thread, you will see the names Allinson, Doves Farm, Shipton Mill, and Wright's. If you can identify a flour that you can buy that is in the right protein range, please report back to me on what that flour is and we can see how it might fit in the PJ clone formulation you would like to use. At this point, I don't think that there is a need to consider using vital wheat gluten (VWG). I used it in several of my PJ clone experiments because I did not have the optimum flour on hand. My use was just to try to have my flour blend at the desired protein level.

With respect to your oven, it wasn't clear to me whether it is a gas oven or an electric oven, or maybe a combination of both. Maybe you can clarify on this point. But whatever your oven can do, I think that it is best to bake your pizza on a lower rack position where it is closer to be bottom heat source where it can get enough heat to increase the oven spring and also provide good bottom crust browning. If the bottom is finished before the bottom, you can always move the pizza from the lower rack position to one closer to the top heat source where you can get more heat at the top of the pizza. In my oven, I preheat to about 500-525 degrees F for about an hour. I do not see any need to prebake the pizza.

I also do not believe that you should need to use a dough docker, although it may have helped with your dough because of its high yeast content. In the PJ stores here in the U.S., dough dockers are used on all skins, even if it is not needed. I think it is because some doughs are worked while cold but it is easier to just tell the workers to use the dough dockers on all skins so that they do not have to make decisions on that facet of their pizza making.

From what you have said, it appears that your dough was in good form before refrigerating. So, I don't see any need to do anything different in that regard. The PJ clone doughs tend to be pretty easy to make.

I am not sure what method you were referring to in the YouTube video you referenced, but that is the method you used--stretch and fold. But the dough in the video has a hydration value that is much higher than any of the PJ clone doughs, and where the stretch and fold method is likely the only way to overcome the high hydration of the dough. There are many ways to make a PJ clone dough by hand, but if you are interested you can see one way that I made a PJ clone dough where I used hand kneading, at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312.

Peter



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1087 on: Today at 11:53:19 AM »
Kneading techniques confuse me I've watched many videos and understand why some are suited for different hydration of dough.  Many techniques don't  seem to have names and describing them is difficult. 

This is exactly is how I knead my dough except for the high hydration dough  where I slam and stretch it.   








My oven is an electric fan oven and I used the top shelf which explains why it browned so much when I didn't cook it for that long.   

Though the oven is small, I'll try it on the lowest shelf next time. 



 

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