Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

If you look at the MM Nutrition Facts for the pretzels with cinnamon and honey, at http://mellowmushroom.com/public/nutritionfacts102411.pdf, you will see 5 grams of fat per serving (one-half order of three pretzels). Since there is no fat in the cinnamon or honey, that means that the 5 grams of fat have to be in the dough. As you know, the same dough is used by MM to make both pretzels and pizzas.

I didn't think to mention it before, but we also don't know exactly how MM makes and freezes its dough balls. That can also affect the ultimate performance of the dough when used to make pizzas.

It is unlikely that we will get the same results as MM in a home setting, or in your case at market, even if all the numbers for our clones line up with the MM Nutrition Facts, as was pretty much the case with many of the MM clone dough formulations I came up with after the hydration bake tests. The operating environments are too different. To get closer to a real MM dough and pizza, you would have to have access to more real MM pizzas, note the differences, and modify your dough formulation through tests until you are satisfied.

Since you decided not to offer MM clone pizzas at market, is there a reason why you have resurrected your interest in that style?

Peter

Peter,

I still can not look at pdf. documents on my computer because of a runtime error, but thanks for telling me there is 5 grams of fat per serving in one-half order of three pretzels.  I can understand since no fat is in the cinnamon or honey, and that means that the 5 grams of fat have to be in the dough.  I also know the same dough is used by MM to make both pretzels and pizza.  I actually saw the MM workers at DC use the same dough balls to make the pretzels as they used to make the pizzas.

I know we don’t know exactly how MM makes and freezes their dough balls.  I would guess they flash freeze them, but can understand how they make their dough balls can also affect the ultimate performance of the doughs when used to make the pizzas.  The dough balls at MM looked to me to like normal dough balls that were somewhat dry, but then I don’t know how old they were.  

I understand it is unlikely that we will get the same results as MM in a home setting, or at market like I had been trying.  My daughter tried to purchase me dough balls when she was in Atlanta last month, but the MM she visited didn’t sell dough balls.  I would have liked to do more tests on some MM dough balls.  

I have always been interested in the clone MM pizzas and I really like them.  I had just been thinking about if my MM attempts were anything like a MM pizza in the texture.  Maybe, I tend to over think things about the texture I achieved and really what the texture was when I had the pizzas from MM.   I also wonder how my taste buds are in tasting sweetness.  The sweetness issue is one reason I wanted to try Dave’s formulation, since he said he can taste the sweetness in his formulation.  I still haven’t ruled out trying to sell MM pizzas at market.  I might give it another attempt since summer is here and there are more customers at market.  

Norma  

[Chicago Bob]

  I had just been thinking about if my MM attempts were anything like a MM pizza in the texture.  Maybe, I tend to over think things about the texture I achieved and really what the texture was when I had the pizzas from MM.   

Norma,

Here is why I said yesterday that I feel you nailed the MM bake/texture.....reply 1201.     http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169252.html#msg169252

As you know, mine was made with a real MM dough ball and it is here...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167178.html#msg167178

10-4 ?.....;-)

Bob

[norma427]

Norma,

Here is why I said yesterday that I feel you nailed the MM bake/texture.....reply 1201.     http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169252.html#msg169252

As you know, mine was made with a real MM dough ball and it is here...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg167178.html#msg167178

10-4 ?.....;-)

Bob

Bob,

I recall when you used a MM dough ball to make a pizza.  You said in your reply that it is sort of hard to describe the taste of the sweetness in the crust.  That is one thing I have been thinking about when I tasted a MM pizza in DC.  I don’t think my attempts had the same sweetness that I tasted at MM.  I know we don’t know the brand of molasses MM is using either, but somehow with their somewhat lighter doughs, it makes me wonder just how much molasses they use in their formulation.  I also have been thinking about the texture (not oven spring) in the MM pizzas I ate and even from the MM dough balls baked into pizzas that you sent me.  I had tried part of the one dough ball baked at home and the whole dough ball baked at market.  It just seems to me that there was a different texture of being lighter somehow.  Maybe, I don’t even remember right, who knows.  

How many MM dough balls have you purchased and bake into MM style pizzas?  Do they all bake the same in your home oven, if you tried more than one dough ball?  Do the dough balls look any different to you in that they might have been thawed and fermented for more than one day?  I can’t recall if you local MM gets their dough balls fresh or are they frozen?  

I am still thinking did I really nail the MM bake/texture, although you think I did.  

I know you did offer to send me another MM dough ball and I really appreciate that, but with the high temperatures I think it would be difficult to send a dough balls now, even if it was frozen first.  I know my frozen dough balls, (even when left in the fridge for a part of a day) do defrost and ferment a lot until the next day.  (about 12 hrs.)

Thanks for your thoughts Bob.  

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In the past, I have written from time to time about some of the differences between baking pizzas in a home setting versus a commercial setting. I have also written how someone, for example, a budding pizza operator, developed a dough formulation at home only to later discover that the pizzas baked up considerably differently in the person's home oven than in a commercial oven using the exact same dough. There have also been professional pizza operators who have taken dough from work to make pizzas at home and got materially different results when baked in their home ovens. For a couple posts on this subject, see Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11670.msg107561/topicseen.html#msg107561 and Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7951.msg68453/topicseen.html#msg68453. See, also, the thread by canadianbacon (Mark) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3993.msg33307.html#msg33307. I think that most members who attempt MM clones do not expect, or they will eventually learn, that they can't exactly replicate an authentic MM pizza in their home ovens. They might do a little bit better if they have gas ovens than electric ovens, because of a more moist baking environment, but they are not going to get the same results as a Montague oven as used by many MM stores (http://www.montaguecompany.com/pizza_ovens.htm). If they end up unfulfilled, there is nothing that I can do to console them or help them overcome their grief.

In my case, if the objective is to try to replicate a commercial dough formulation, I will always go with the numbers, even if they might sometimes be wrong, as we discovered a while back with the Pepe's dough. I am not a trial and error type. I want a benchmark (like a real MM dough in this case) staring me in the face at all times since I can't trust my memory about an MM pizza that I only had once--in August, 2011--and was followed by many more clones that no doubt blurred and muddied my memory of the original MM pizza. In your case, you will always have a better chance of replicating the MM dough and pizza because you at least have a commercial oven (which I believe is gas-fired) and you have all of the right ingredients, including bromated high-gluten flours. To the extent you can identify the differentiating factors between a real MM dough/pizza and your own versions, then you might try to determine how to breach the gap.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

  Maybe, I don’t even remember right, who knows.  

How many MM dough balls have you purchased and bake into MM style pizzas?  Do they all bake the same in your home oven, if you tried more than one dough ball?  Do the dough balls look any different to you in that they might have been thawed and fermented for more than one day?  I can't recall if you local MM gets their dough balls fresh or are they frozen?  

I am still thinking did I really nail the MM bake/texture, although you think I did.  

Norma,Norma,Norma.....you silly goose. I keep tell'in ya you did good, kid!    Don't make me come over there......

I've made maybe 3 or 4 of 'em and they all look about the same. But ya know what..the poofy rim always looks waaay lighter in color when I check out the customers pies while at MM picking up a dough ball. They make theirs (cornicione) a 'lil bigger than ours too.
Here in the Durham shop they are using frozen and every time they have looked like they were maybe "put up wet" or summ'in cause they have kind of a dry,whitish tint to them....a bit of cornmeal dusting too as you remember.

Like I said Miss Norma, I got no problem with sending you another or two so if you wanna play jus pm that address that I told you I lost.

Stay cool    an have a great day at Market tomorrow.

Bob

[cptbingo2000]

Yo Woody - what kinda price you gettin' on that KASL from Publix?

Well, I haven't heard back from them actually.  I went in and filled out a little form, and the lady looked on her PC and said she should be able to get it, but only when they placed their big "special order" order (which could take a couple of weeks).  So after reading this thread, I was hungering for a MM so bad, but my wife wouldn't drive to Franklin to get me one.  I went ahead and ordered a bag from kingarthurflour.com along with some Red SAF IDY, so hopefully,i should be making some clones by the weekend, as long as my tomatoes get here from pennmac.com  I might have to go downtown and order one in the mean time...

[norma427]

Norma,

In the past, I have written from time to time about some of the differences between baking pizzas in a home setting versus a commercial setting. I have also written how someone, for example, a budding pizza operator, developed a dough formulation at home only to later discover that the pizzas baked up considerably differently in the person's home oven than in a commercial oven using the exact same dough. There have also been professional pizza operators who have taken dough from work to make pizzas at home and got materially different results when baked in their home ovens. For a couple posts on this subject, see Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11670.msg107561/topicseen.html#msg107561 and Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7951.msg68453/topicseen.html#msg68453. See, also, the thread by canadianbacon (Mark) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3993.msg33307.html#msg33307. I think that most members who attempt MM clones do not expect, or they will eventually learn, that they can't exactly replicate an authentic MM pizza in their home ovens. They might do a little bit better if they have gas ovens than electric ovens, because of a more moist baking environment, but they are not going to get the same results as a Montague oven as used by many MM stores (http://www.montaguecompany.com/pizza_ovens.htm). If they end up unfulfilled, there is nothing that I can do to console them or help them overcome their grief.

In my case, if the objective is to try to replicate a commercial dough formulation, I will always go with the numbers, even if they might sometimes be wrong, as we discovered a while back with the Pepe's dough. I am not a trial and error type. I want a benchmark (like a real MM dough in this case) staring me in the face at all times since I can't trust my memory about an MM pizza that I only had once--in August, 2011--and was followed by many more clones that no doubt blurred and muddied my memory of the original MM pizza. In your case, you will always have a better chance of replicating the MM dough and pizza because you at least have a commercial oven (which I believe is gas-fired) and you have all of the right ingredients, including bromated high-gluten flours. To the extent you can identify the differentiating factors between a real MM dough/pizza and your own versions, then you might try to determine how to breach the gap.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the links to where you have written about differences between baking pizzas in a home setting versus a commercial setting.  I do know from baking the same doughs at home and at market that they both can turn out different pizzas.  My home oven doesn’t even get to 550 degrees F.  If the same dough formulation is baked in Steve’s oven (at 550 or above) it can make almost the same pizza as my deck oven, but not exactly the same.  I can understand no matter what oven I try it won’t be like MM Montague ovens.  I saw they have a fairly high heat space and do take longer to bake then my deck oven.  I do have a propane gas deck oven at market with a lot lower head space than MM Montague ovens. 

I know your objective is to try and replicate a commercial dough formulation with the numbers. 

I don’t think I ever will be able to identify all the differentiating factors between a real MM dough/pizza and my own attempts.  There are far too many variables.  I guess I will just let it go for now.

Norma 

[norma427]

Norma,Norma,Norma.....you silly goose. I keep tell'in ya you did good, kid!    Don't make me come over there......

I've made maybe 3 or 4 of 'em and they all look about the same. But ya know what..the poofy rim always looks waaay lighter in color when I check out the customers pies while at MM picking up a dough ball. They make theirs (cornicione) a 'lil bigger than ours too.
Here in the Durham shop they are using frozen and every time they have looked like they were maybe "put up wet" or summ'in cause they have kind of a dry,whitish tint to them....a bit of cornmeal dusting too as you remember.

Like I said Miss Norma, I got no problem with sending you another or two so if you wanna play jus pm that address that I told you I lost.

Stay cool    an have a great day at Market tomorrow.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for saying I did good.  

That was one thing I had wondered about is the lighter rims as you also noticed in customers pies at MM. Thanks for telling me they used frozen dough balls at the Durham MM.  After I posted about your MM business having fresh or frozen dough balls I remembered you weren’t in Georgia.  I don’t know what the whitish tint is on the dough balls.  I remember when you posted the picture of the one dough ball you have purchased at MM how wet it looked.  

I think right now is too hot to be sending dough balls, but I appreciate your kind offer very much.  

Thanks also for saying to stay cool and have a good day at market.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I had mentioned in my post at Reply 1733 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg194672.html#msg194672  about the Briess Sweet White Sorghum Syrup.  I decided to see if I could get a sample, maybe not for the MM clone but just to see what is was like.  I filled out the sample request and did ask for the spec sheets.  I didn’t get any return call or email, so I thought I wouldn’t be getting any of the Briess Sweet White Sorghum Syrup.  I did ask in my request if it could be used for pizza dough.  I received a sample of the Briess Sweet White Sorghum Syrup a little while ago and tasted it.  It is sweet and light tan in color, but I don’t understand the sweetness levels on the spec sheet.  The spec sheet does say it is good for pizza crusts.  Maybe you can understand the spec sheet.  If the Breiss Sweet White Sorghum Syrup isn’t suitable for a MM clone, then maybe I can try it in another pizza dough.

Steve King of Briess did give me a business card and said if I had any other questions to contact him. 

Did you ever hear of using Briess Sweet White Sorghum Syrup in a pizza dough?

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

spec sheet

Norma

[r270ba]

So I am reading through all of these 88 pages and I am having a hard time figuring out which clone you guys have decided is the best.  Can you point me in the right direction?  I live in SC (if that makes a difference).

Thanks guys!

[Chicago Bob]

I believe it is #7 Ron...Norma works her Market pizza stand on Tuesdays but she'll be along after while Peter might pop  in before that though....welcome to the forum!

[Pete-zza]

So I am reading through all of these 88 pages and I am having a hard time figuring out which clone you guys have decided is the best.  Can you point me in the right direction?  I live in SC (if that makes a difference).

Ron,

The reason why there are so many versions of MM clone doughs is because there are so many different forms and brands of molasses that have different characteristics, including sweetness and color. It will help if you tell us what types and brands of ingredients you have available to you, particularly the flour and molasses.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Did you ever hear of using Briess Sweet White Sorghum Syrup in a pizza dough?

Norma,

As somewhat a generalization, just about any sweetener can be used to make a pizza dough. The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is a fairly new innovation, but as noted in the APPLICATIONS section of the spec sheet that you copied in Reply 1750, one of the applications for that product is pizza crusts. Where the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup differs from the classic sorghum syrup (the type of sorghum syrup that Biz Markie experimented with) is that the Briess white sorghum syrup is produced from the starchy heads of the sorghum grain rather than from the cane. This distinction is mentioned in the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Resources/Innovation%20Center/2010/11/Briess%20gluten-free%20sorghum%20syrup.aspx. From another article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/9/Ingr%20R-and-D%20Sweeteners.aspx, it appears that the Briess white sorghum syrup was developed as a gluten-free option.

From a sweetness standpoint, the Briess white sorghum syrup contains a lot of maltose, which is a disaccharide that is commonly present in nondiastatic malt, the type of malt that you previously received from John at Malt Products Corporation. As you may recall, malt is not nearly as sweet as sucrose, so to achieve the same sweetness equivalency, you will perhaps have to use more of the white sorghum syrup. As with the various molasses products we have tried and researched, you will have to determine what amount of the white sorghum syrup is needed to achieve the desired degree of crust sweetness and color, as well as have the right simple sugars and quantities to properly support yeast performance. Maybe when you are ready and have some idea as to what you want to do, we can kick around some numbers to see if we can come up with something that you might like. It might be another version of an MM clone dough or it might be something quite different.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

As somewhat a generalization, just about any sweetener can be used to make a pizza dough. The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is a fairly new innovation, but as noted in the APPLICATIONS section of the spec sheet that you copied in Reply 1750, one of the applications for that product is pizza crusts. Where the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup differs from the classic sorghum syrup (the type of sorghum syrup that Biz Markie experimented with) is that the Briess white sorghum syrup is produced from the starchy heads of the sorghum grain rather than from the cane. This distinction is mentioned in the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Resources/Innovation%20Center/2010/11/Briess%20gluten-free%20sorghum%20syrup.aspx. From another article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/9/Ingr%20R-and-D%20Sweeteners.aspx, it appears that the Briess white sorghum syrup was developed as a gluten-free option.

From a sweetness standpoint, the Briess white sorghum syrup contains a lot of maltose, which is a disaccharide that is commonly present in nondiastatic malt, the type of malt that you previously received from John at Malt Products Corporation. As you may recall, malt is not nearly as sweet as sucrose, so to achieve the same sweetness equivalency, you will perhaps have to use more of the white sorghum syrup. As with the various molasses products we have tried and researched, you will have to determine what amount of the white sorghum syrup is needed to achieve the desired degree of crust sweetness and color, as well as have the right simple sugars and quantities to properly support yeast performance. Maybe when you are ready and have some idea as to what you want to do, we can kick around some numbers to see if we can come up with something that you might like. It might be another version of an MM clone dough or it might be something quite different.

Peter

Peter,

I know that just about any sweetener could be used to make a pizza dough.  I did see the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup differs from what Biz Markie experimented with in that the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is produced from the starchy heads of the sorghum grain rather than the cane. 

Thanks for the additional link to where it appears the Briess white sorghum syrup was developed as a gluten-free option.  I also see if using molasses it does compliment the trend towards natural and clean labeling from that link. 

I did not know that from a sweetness standpoint that the Briess white sorghum syrup is about the same as the type of malt that I received from John at Malt Product Corporation.  I don’t know why when I tasted the Briess white sorghum syrup it tasted sweet. 

I really don’t want you to try to make me another formulation for the MM thread using Briess white sorghum syrup.  The only reason I posted about it on this thread is because this is where I mentioned it.  I would like to try the Briess white sorghum syrup in the Lehmann dough though, but don’t if I could try it as a direct replacement for the sugar in the formulation I am using.

Norma

[norma427]

This is the MM pizza attempt using Dave’s (Tampa) formulation.  It no way does this mean that the dough formulation I used of Dave’s is supposed to be a clone dough formulation for a MM pizza (because the numbers aren‘t right), but I just wanted to see how it would turn out with a higher hydration, lower amount of molasses and no oil.

The attempted pizza was very good, but didn’t get the big rim. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma