Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 217536 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #750 on: November 19, 2011, 09:38:05 AM »
Norma,

That is very good thinking on your part on the Golden Barrel product. In fact, after looking at the MM Nutrition Facts and the "sugars" used in some of the MM baked products (like pretzels and some of their basic/simple pizzas), I was thinking along the same lines. I believe that honey is complementary to molasses since it has 15 grams of sugars for a 21-gram tablespoon (which makes it a sweeter product compared with most other natural sweeteners), and I think that it is a good choice for the home pizza maker attempting an MM clone, but there are other sweeteners, both natural and refined, that can be used with molasses without throwing off the color of the final dough and crust yet provide the desired degree of sweetness.

The MM "sugars" numbers that I examined in the MM Nutrition Facts seem to be less than what I have used in my MM clone dough formulations or that I gave to you to try. That leads me to believe that there may be a really sweet sweetener that is used along with the molasses to achieve the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust without throwing off the color. The Golden Barrel product you cited might be one such product but I was thinking of something like the Steen's cane syrup or the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup product that you received as a sample and deemed to be "sickeningly sweet" (at Reply 527 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158080.html#msg158080). My other guess at the moment is raw cane sugar (turbinado). I, too, would rule out brown sugar inasmuch as it is usually molasses with refined white sugar. Also, if MM is thinking of going organic with some of its ingredients, I can't imagine that they would be using something like high fructose corn syrup/corn syrup or an artificial sweetener. The Golden Barrel product you cited, or one like it, may be a candidate because it is called a "baking molasses" even though it apparently contains more cane juice than molasses. The sugars in that product are 13 grams for a 20-gram tablespoon. One would have to do some testing to see how much of that product would be needed to achieve both the desired degree of sweetness and the desired degree of dough/crust coloration. Then one can examine the "sugars" in that quantity and compare it with the MM Nutrition Facts.

I may learn more once I have had a chance to look at the MM Nutrition Facts more closely. That may take a while because I have some questions on some of the Nutrition Facts that can only be answered by MM. I plan to send an email to them once I collect the questions I want to ask.

Peter

Peter,

It is interesting since you examined the ďsugarsí at the MM Nutrition Facts you found their products seem to be less sweet than what you have used in your MM clone dough formulations, or the ones that you gave me to try.  It is also interesting that lead you to believe that there may be a really sweet sweetener that is used along with the molasses to achieve the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust without throwing off the color. 

Do you think I should try an experiment for this coming week with the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses (alone without any other sweetener), or one with the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup in combination with molasses, or just stick to the last formula you tried and had good success with?

I know it will take you awhile to examine the MM Nutrition Facts more closely.

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #751 on: November 19, 2011, 12:12:12 PM »
Do you think I should try an experiment for this coming week with the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses (alone without any other sweetener), or one with the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup in combination with molasses, or just stick to the last formula you tried and had good success with?

Norma,

It's up to you. However, it would be interesting to see if you get similar results to mine using a 14" version (with corresponding thickness factor) of the dough formulation I posted, and using your deck oven. If that doesn't do it for you, then you can try one or both of the sweeteners you mentioned. In the meantime, I hope to play around with the MM Nutrition Facts to see if my earlier statements are supported by a more thorough review of the MM Nutrition Facts. There is a lot of "wiggle" room with Nutrition Facts, especially with all the rounding. Also, in MM's case, their Nutrition Facts are different than most I have seen.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #752 on: November 19, 2011, 12:23:20 PM »
This morning, while I was out shopping, I found the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup at Wal-Mart's ($4.28 for a 16-ounce bottle) and at Kroger ($3.99 for a 16-ounce bottle). In both cases, the Steen's was in the pancake syrup sections of the stores.

Both stores also had reasonably priced store-brand and "value" branded clover honey. On a per-ounce basis, the cane syrup seems to be more expensive than the cheap honeys, but less expensive than the better known brands and the ones from local sources. I would imagine that pure cane syrups from commercial sources are considerably cheaper than honey.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #753 on: November 19, 2011, 01:59:21 PM »
Norma,

It's up to you. However, it would be interesting to see if you get similar results to mine using a 14" version (with corresponding thickness factor) of the dough formulation I posted, and using your deck oven. If that doesn't do it for you, then you can try one or both of the sweeteners you mentioned. In the meantime, I hope to play around with the MM Nutrition Facts to see if my earlier statements are supported by a more thorough review of the MM Nutrition Facts. There is a lot of "wiggle" room with Nutrition Facts, especially with all the rounding. Also, in MM's case, their Nutrition Facts are different than most I have seen.

Peter

Peter,

I will try your dough formulation for a MM pie for this Tuesday, to see if I get similar results to yours baked in the deck oven.  Should I use the same TF I have been using, or switch to your TF?
 
I donít even know how you can review the MM Nutrition Facts.  I sure would be lost there.

I had to do some other errands, so I decided to stop at the Country Store to purchase some Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It was 2.29 for a pint. It only lists the ingredients as molasses, but I guess it is the same ingredients as the bulk palls of Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  I took a sample of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses, The Grandmaís Original Molasses, and the Brer Rabbit Mild Flavored Molasses, and spread samples on a white paper.  They all do look to be the same in thickness and color.  The Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is sweeter in taste than the Grandmaís Original Molasses, or the Brer Rabbit Mild Flavored Molasses.  I donít know why the taste of the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses would taste sweeter to me because it seems to be in line with both the other products in percents of sugar in the Nutrition Facts.  Maybe my taste buds are going haywire.  

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #754 on: November 19, 2011, 02:00:45 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #755 on: November 19, 2011, 02:39:02 PM »
I will try your dough formulation for a MM pie for this Tuesday, to see if I get similar results to yours baked in the deck oven.  Should I use the same TF I have been using, or switch to your TF?
 
I had to do some other errands, so I decided to stop at the Country Store to purchase some Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It was 2.29 for a pint. It only lists the ingredients as molasses, but I guess it is the same ingredients as the bulk palls of Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  I took a sample of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses, The Grandmaís Original Molasses, and the Brer Rabbit Mild Flavored Molasses, and spread samples on a white paper.  They all do look to be the same in thickness and color.  The Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is sweeter in taste than the Grandmaís Original Molasses, or the Brer Rabbit Mild Flavored Molasses.  I donít know why the taste of the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses would taste sweeter to me because it seems to be in line with both the other products in percents of sugar in the Nutrition Facts.  Maybe my taste buds are going haywire.  

Norma,

For youir next experiment, I would go with the thickness factor for a 14" pizza, which is 0.118684. BTW, when I made my last MM clone pizza, I used the methods that the MM workers used to form the rim and open up and stretch the dough ball as are shown in the videos that you posted at and except that I thought I did a better job than the workers in the videos. As you will see from those videos, the workers do not use the "slap" method to help open up the dough balls more. It is hard to use that method when making a 10" pizza from a dough ball that is quite stiff. The dough would have to be quite soft and extensible.

As between the Dutch Valley information on the Golden Barrel product and the information on the jar that you purchased, I would go with the Dutch Valley information (at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/sugars-and-sweeteners/syrups-molasses/260069/golden-barrel-supreme-baking-molasses-5-gal-585lb). However, if you want confirmation, you can call Dutch Valley and ask them which information is correct, especially since there is a note ("Product information/materials may change. Refer to the package or call for updates") below the Dutch Valley ingredients list.

As far as sweetness is concerned, you can't really go on the amount of sugars. Some sugars, like fructose, are considerably sweeter than other sugars. Honey is also another sweetener that is sweeter than most other sugars. Cane syrup is sweeter than molasses because it is made by just boiling the cane juices to thicken them (or maybe it is just cane juice). As best I can tell, the mixture is not put in a centrifuge to spin off the heavier molasses, leaving the cane sugar crystals behind. If you decide to call Dutch Valley, you might ask them (if they know) how the Golden Barrel product is made. That is, do they actually blend cane syrup or raw cane juice with molasses, or is it the result of a single boiling operation?

Peter
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 02:43:23 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #756 on: November 19, 2011, 05:31:21 PM »
Norma,

For youir next experiment, I would go with the thickness factor for a 14" pizza, which is 0.118684. BTW, when I made my last MM clone pizza, I used the methods that the MM workers used to form the rim and open up and stretch the dough ball as are shown in the videos that you posted at and except that I thought I did a better job than the workers in the videos. As you will see from those videos, the workers do not use the "slap" method to help open up the dough balls more. It is hard to use that method when making a 10" pizza from a dough ball that is quite stiff. The dough would have to be quite soft and extensible.

As between the Dutch Valley information on the Golden Barrel product and the information on the jar that you purchased, I would go with the Dutch Valley information (at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/sugars-and-sweeteners/syrups-molasses/260069/golden-barrel-supreme-baking-molasses-5-gal-585lb). However, if you want confirmation, you can call Dutch Valley and ask them which information is correct, especially since there is a note ("Product information/materials may change. Refer to the package or call for updates") below the Dutch Valley ingredients list.

As far as sweetness is concerned, you can't really go on the amount of sugars. Some sugars, like fructose, are considerably sweeter than other sugars. Honey is also another sweetener that is sweeter than most other sugars. Cane syrup is sweeter than molasses because it is made by just boiling the cane juices to thicken them (or maybe it is just cane juice). As best I can tell, the mixture is not put in a centrifuge to spin off the heavier molasses, leaving the cane sugar crystals behind. If you decide to call Dutch Valley, you might ask them (if they know) how the Golden Barrel product is made. That is, do they actually blend cane syrup or raw cane juice with molasses, or is it the result of a single boiling operation?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to go with the thickness factor for a 14Ē pizza.  Good to hear you used the method of opening the dough balls like the MM workers used at the MM location in Washington, DC.  I didnít try that method as of now.  I will also try to open the dough balls that way this week.  I can understand you would be more precise in going about opening your MM clone dough ball. 

I will either call Dutch Valley or Golden Barrel http://www.goldenbarrel.com/index.php or http://www.goldenbarrel.com/about-us.php  where I think they produce the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  http://www.goldenbarrel.com/blackstrap-baking-molasses.php  I also will ask the other questions to find out about their products.  Since Golden Barrel is near me, I always could go there someday. 

I still have the data information for the Evaporated Cane Juice sample I received.  In the Chemical and Physical Characteristics it says the sucrose % in the Evaporated Cane Juice is 98.8-99.8.  It also says in the data that it is the ideal alternative to refined white sugar.  I you want me to post the data information for the Evaporated Cane Juice or the Golden Granulated Evaporate Cane Juice Syrup, I can copy and post that information.  The Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup says it sucrose % is 98.5  It also says it is an alternative to refined sweetener syrups.  I can also copy and post that information if you think it would help at all.

I didnít know when looking at sugars on the Nutrition Facts you really couldnít go by the sugars. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #757 on: November 19, 2011, 10:45:00 PM »
Norma,

If you don't mind, I would like to see the data on the two evaporated cane sugar products.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #758 on: November 20, 2011, 07:29:22 AM »
Norma,

If you don't mind, I would like to see the data on the two evaporated cane sugar products.

Peter

Peter,

These are the data sheets for the Granulated Cane Juice syrup and the Evaporated Cane Juice.  
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 07:33:21 AM by norma427 »


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #759 on: November 20, 2011, 07:30:56 AM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #760 on: November 20, 2011, 07:31:35 AM »
This is also the Granulated Cane Juice Syrup

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #761 on: November 20, 2011, 02:50:47 PM »
This is how the dough ball looked, before it was frozen, using the formula that Peter posted at Reply 722 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg160094.html#msg160094

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #762 on: November 21, 2011, 07:12:55 AM »
Dough ball after it was taken out of the freezer yesterday afternoon.  I also was at my local supermarket last evening and they do carry Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup.  I don't know how I missed the Steen's product before.  It was with the other syrups and molasses products.  It was 4.89.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:24:10 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #763 on: November 21, 2011, 09:47:02 AM »
I called Golden Barrel this morning, and talked to a technical man about the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and how they make their product.  The technical man told me they donít produce the cane juice/syrup at Golden Barrel, but do add it to their Blackstrap molasses to make the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product.  He also said the cane syrup is added in much greater qualities than the blackstrap molasses.  He said only a little of the blackstrap molasses is used in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, and the rest is the cane syrup.  I said I had noticed that one the pint container (I had bought at the supermarket) only stated molasses listed in the ingredients and saw at the Dutch Valley website that cane juice and molasses were listed as the ingredients.  He said they both are exactly the same product.  I asked how the cane syrup/juice is made, and he said it was made with an extraction spin-off.  He said the process of making Golden Supreme Baking Molasses is mostly dependent on the Brix value.  I asked him if any of their other products would be sweeter in taste and he said yes, but a lot of corn syrup is used in those products. 

I told him that I am trying to make a pizza dough with a molasses product, but I havenít been able to get it sweet enough with molasses alone.  He said he never heard of someone making a pizza dough with molasses, but wished me good luck.   

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #764 on: November 22, 2011, 09:48:46 PM »
Peter,

I wanted to let you know your MM clone dough formulation worked well.  I also thought your formulation tasted the closest to the MM pies I ate from Washington DC.  The dough sat out at room temperature for 4 hours.  The dough opened well, and I also used the methods to open the dough as shown from the MM videos I posted.

Steve and my taste testers also thought this was the best attempt in the taste of the crust too!  My crumb wasnít as airy as before, so that also was more in line with a real MM pie.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #765 on: November 22, 2011, 09:49:38 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #766 on: November 22, 2011, 09:51:14 PM »
Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #767 on: November 22, 2011, 09:52:15 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #768 on: November 22, 2011, 09:53:27 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #769 on: November 22, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #770 on: November 22, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #771 on: November 22, 2011, 09:57:46 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #772 on: November 22, 2011, 09:58:54 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #773 on: November 23, 2011, 09:46:22 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that your latest results appear to mirror my recent experience. The results also seem to support the notion that MM is using a second sweetener in addition to the molasses. We know that that second sweetener is not honey but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the second sweetener is something like the cane syrup in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product, even if there is more of the cane syrup than molasses. I can easily see how someone might refer to a product like the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product as simply being "molasses", especially since the word molasses is used in the product's name.

FYI, I did send an email to MM with several questions that I came up with after spending a good part of a day playing around with the numbers in the MM Nutrition Facts. If I get a response that answers my questions, I should have a better idea of some of the baker's percents of ingredients used by MM in its dough. However, even without more information from MM, I think that the amount of salt that MM uses in its dough may be less than what we have been using and also that more oil may be used. Based on my study of the MM Nutrition Facts, I have prepared and frozen a test dough ball using the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and Grandma's Original molasses, and also revised baker's percents for salt and oil. The color of the dough is a shade darker than when I used honey along with the Grandma's Original molasses. The Steen's product has a somewhat sweeter taste than the Grandma's Original molasses but does not have the sharpness and depth of the flavor of the Grandma's Original molasses. The colors of the two products is about the same. These are some of the reasons why I will be interested in your results when you get around to using a blend with more cane syrup than molasses. I should also mention that because of the amounts of the Steen's cane syrup and Grandma's Original molasses I used, which were based on the MM Nutrition Facts, the formula hydration was only 51%. Yet, I had no problem with dryness of the finished dough. It behaved like most of the other test doughs. In fact, I think I could have lowered the formula hydration even more.

In making the latest dough ball, I also wondered whether high salt levels can masquerade sweetness in a finished crust. Maybe the results will test this idea. I might add that the revised amounts of salt and oil are not dramatically different than what we have been using in our various tests. Unfortunately, there is no way of determining from the MM Nutrition Facts how much yeast and how much water is used to make the MM dough. That information would allow us to zero in on things a bit better.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #774 on: November 23, 2011, 10:39:02 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that your latest results appear to mirror my recent experience. The results also seem to support the notion that MM is using a second sweetener in addition to the molasses. We know that that second sweetener is not honey but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the second sweetener is something like the cane syrup in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product, even if there is more of the cane syrup than molasses. I can easily see how someone might refer to a product like the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product as simply being "molasses", especially since the word molasses is used in the product's name.

FYI, I did send an email to MM with several questions that I came up with after spending a good part of a day playing around with the numbers in the MM Nutrition Facts. If I get a response that answers my questions, I should have a better idea of some of the baker's percents of ingredients used by MM in its dough. However, even without more information from MM, I think that the amount of salt that MM uses in its dough may be less than what we have been using and also that more oil may be used. Based on my study of the MM Nutrition Facts, I have prepared and frozen a test dough ball using the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and Grandma's Original molasses, and also revised baker's percents for salt and oil. The color of the dough is a shade darker than when I used honey along with the Grandma's Original molasses. The Steen's product has a somewhat sweeter taste than the Grandma's Original molasses but does not have the sharpness and depth of the flavor of the Grandma's Original molasses. The colors of the two products is about the same. These are some of the reasons why I will be interested in your results when you get around to using a blend with more cane syrup than molasses. I should also mention that because of the amounts of the Steen's cane syrup and Grandma's Original molasses I used, which were based on the MM Nutrition Facts, the formula hydration was only 51%. Yet, I had no problem with dryness of the finished dough. It behaved like most of the other test doughs. In fact, I think I could have lowered the formula hydration even more.

In making the latest dough ball, I also wondered whether high salt levels can masquerade sweetness in a finished crust. Maybe the results will test this idea. I might add that the revised amounts of salt and oil are not dramatically different than what we have been using in our various tests. Unfortunately, there is no way of determining from the MM Nutrition Facts how much yeast and how much water is used to make the MM dough. That information would allow us to zero in on things a bit better.

Peter

Peter,

Since I didnít see any pictures of your pizza that you used the same formulation I used, did my pictures look anything like your attempt using the same formulation baked in your home oven?

Good to hear you did send MM an email with several questions, after you spent a good part of the day playing around with the numbers in the MM Nutrition Facts.  If you get a reply, I am sure you would get a better idea of the bakerís percent of ingredients used by MM in their dough.  Interesting that you think the salt used in MM dough is less than what we have been using and also more oil might be used.  Interesting also that your formulation only used 51% hydration.  That is really low, but can understand with the added syrups it would be some higher.  Your intuition about the salt masking the sweetness also might be right.  I could understand how salt could masquerade sweetness in a finished crust.  Your test should give us an idea if less salt is used in the formulation if the crust becomes sweeter.  Always interesting how you figure out everything.   :chef:

I wondered how many people purchase the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses at the retail level and only think it is a molasses product  (because that is what is only listed on the ingredients) without the cane syrup as the main ingredient.  I guess it doesnít really matter though, since cane syrup does make molasses.

If you think of a formulation attempt for me to try out for next week with the cane syrup, let me know.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, and all the other members of the forum!

I forgot to post one picture last evening of the MM attempt.

Norma