Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 162498 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #940 on: December 31, 2011, 05:19:59 PM »
From Steve post at Reply 934 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165375.html#msg165375  Steve posted he used dark brown sugar in the MM formulation I tried with light brown sugar.  Since I would think dark brown sugar has more molasses added than light brown sugar, wouldn’t that also made his attempt higher in
“sucrose equivalency” value?

Norma,

Since both light brown sugar and dark brown sugar are over 90% sucrose, and to avoid having to do two pages of calculations to come up with "sucrose equivalency" values for the small amounts of molasses in light and dark brown sugar (about 3.5% molasses, or 0.217 grams, for the light brown sugar; and about 6.5% molasses, or 0.403 grams, for the dark brown sugar), I treated the entire weight of brown sugar (6.2 grams) as sucrose. As you can see from the above numbers, there isn't enough molasses in the total amount of brown sugar, either light or dark, to move the sweetness needle much. To try to prove the point, I made estimates of the amount of ash and nutrient content in the molasses used by the two types of brown sugars, and then did several calculations on the molasses contents to arrive at sucrose equivalents for both amounts of molasses. For this purpose, I assumed that the molasses in both cases was about 22% water. I then added in the equivalency numbers that I had calculated before for the Grandma's Original molasses by itself. When the dust settled, I had an estimate of sucrose equivalency of 4.82% for the combination of light brown sugar and Grandma's Original molasses, and a sucrose equivalency of 4.782% for the combination of dark brown sugar and Grandma's Original molasses. The value I posted earlier was 4.876%. If my assumptions and numbers are correct, the differences are so small that they almost aren't measurable.

Where there may be a difference when using the dark brown sugar is a slightly darker dough and crust and maybe a bit more tang from the flavor perspective. Moreover, the above numbers show a reduced sweetness using the dark brown sugar. That makes sense since there is more sucrose in a sample of light brown sugar than in a similar sample of dark brown sugar (as noted above, there is about 3.5% molasses in light brown sugar and about 6.5% molasses in the dark brown sugar).

I hope you wont be too hard on Steve because he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar without your prior written and notarized authorization witnessed and attested to by three of your taste testers. And please don't make him stay after market next Tuesday when everyone else has gone home and write on the blackboard a hundred times that he won't do that again. His brown sugar switch gave me an opportunity to learn more about brown sugars and their effects on a finished product.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #941 on: December 31, 2011, 06:00:16 PM »
The pan I currently have is the T Fal Airbake Ultra found here: http://www.amazon.com/AirBake-Ultra-Insulated-15-75-Inch-Perforated/dp/B000063SKQ/ref=dp_cp_ob_k_title_2. I may order a few more just to compare and contrast differences.

For this dough would you recommend using a 1/2" steel sheet or get a pizza stone for a conventional oven? I read in a different post that 1/2" steel has the same thermal qualities that 1" stone has. Im just curious if it would be a worth while investment.

Jared,

I have not had any experience with the pan you referenced but if you are to use a pan the ideal pan is one that is either seasoned (at least the outside) or with a dark anodized coating (but with no nonstick coating that might break down and produce noxious fumes if used at oven temperatures above a stated value). The disadvantage of a light colored pan, such as the fairly bright aluminum pan you referenced, is that it will have a tendency to reflect heat rather than absorb it and help the pizza bake better and faster. If you would like to continue to use a conveyor oven, you might consider using a simple pizza screen. That was one of the options I mentioned some time ago in this thread but have not tried it. But I believe that using a pizza screen to make an MM clone pizza in a conveyor oven should work quite well, as I discovered when making similar high-sugar American style doughs/pizzas (e.g., Papa John's clone doughs/pizzas) using pizza screens in my home oven. The bottom crust of such pizzas will not be the same as those baked on a stone (MM uses mostly deck ovens with top and bottom stones) but I think you will still get a pretty decent pizza.

I have not worked with steel sheets so I am not qualified to speak on whether such a sheet would work for the MM style pizza. It seems to me that most of the members who use the steel sheets look for a fast bake, a good example of which is the NY style. The MM pizzas as baked at MM stores are said to take a fairly long time to bake, with typical bake times as high as 10-20 minutes (see, for example, Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151292.html#msg151292 and the MM video at ).

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #942 on: December 31, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »
Now that im thinking about it, I should have made slight increases to the rest of the ingredients because of the increase in the water needed for Ultragrain.

Is this correct thinking or will the evaporation increase because of the larger amount of water included in the formulation?

Jared,

If you use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, that tool will make all of the necessary adjustments to the remaining ingredients so that the total dough weight remains the same for a given size pizza. However, the baker's percents for the various ingredients have to be workable, including the hydration baker's percent.

There are two Ultragrain products, with different absorption characteristics. Can you tell me which one you have?

Peter

Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #943 on: December 31, 2011, 06:49:47 PM »
Jared,

If you use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, that tool will make all of the necessary adjustments to the remaining ingredients so that the total dough weight remains the same for a given size pizza. However, the baker's percents for the various ingredients have to be workable, including the hydration baker's percent.

There are two Ultragrain products, with different absorption characteristics. Can you tell me which one you have?

Peter

I have the Hard Whole Wheat which I gathered is 13.7% protein content.

I do have a simple mesh pizza screen somewhere. Would this work well in a conventional oven as well as a conveyor oven?

Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #944 on: December 31, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »
Quote
I hope you wont be too hard on Steve because he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar without your prior written and notarized authorization witnessed and attested to by three of your taste testers. And please don't make him stay after market next Tuesday when everyone else has gone home and write on the blackboard a hundred times that he won't do that again. His brown sugar switch gave me an opportunity to learn more about brown sugars and their effects on a finished product.

Did you get that Norma?  :-D

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #945 on: December 31, 2011, 09:10:04 PM »

Peter,

I knew after I posted the question about the light brown and dark brown sugars, I should not have posted that question.  I never want to make you do two pages of calculations to come up with “sucrose equivalency” values for the small differences in the two sugars (light and dark).   I can see by the numbers you posted there isn’t enough molasses in the total amount of brown sugar (light or dark) to move the needle much.  I should have thought about that before I posted.  I also didn’t think sensibly that the actual numbers would show a reduced sweetness.  

I am never hard on Steve, and sure wouldn’t be if he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar.  Steve is my pizza making buddy  :) and I learn a lot from him.  It is Steve and Randy (another of my taste testers) that gives me a hard time every week.  You and any other members wouldn’t believe what they do every week, but it all is in good fun.

Sorry to make you work again today in figuring out the light brown and dark brown sugar stuff.  :angel:

Norma
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 09:56:00 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #946 on: December 31, 2011, 09:16:42 PM »
Did you get that Norma?  :-D

Steve,

Trace it, face it, and erase it!  :-D Can’t wait to try you extra MM dough ball when it is made into a pizza Tuesday.  ;D

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #947 on: December 31, 2011, 10:10:23 PM »
Sorry to make you work again today in figuring out the light brown and dark brown sugar stuff.  :angel:

Norma,

No need to apologize. Even though I knew that the molasses component of brown sugar was small and wouldn't affect the numbers much, your question was still a good one--and perhaps one that would occur to others also. Doing the calculations was a good way for me to better understand the impact of brown sugars on the total numbers.

Peter

Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #948 on: January 01, 2012, 10:08:32 AM »
Quote
It is Steve and Randy (another of my taste testers) that gives me a hard time every week.  You and any other members wouldn’t believe what they do every week, but it all is in good fun.

 :o :-[ >:D :angel: :-D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #949 on: January 01, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »
I have the Hard Whole Wheat which I gathered is 13.7% protein content.

I do have a simple mesh pizza screen somewhere. Would this work well in a conventional oven as well as a conveyor oven?

Jared,

Yesterday, I did a considerable amount of searching for dough recipes, and preferably pizza dough recipes, using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour all by itself, that is, without combining with other flours as is a very common practice. What I was looking for was some examples of hydration values used for bread or pizza doughs made using Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour. I came up emptyhanded. If anything, my search indicated that the recommended use of the Ultragrain flours is to combine them with other flours, with a good example of this recommendation being given in the document at http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/whole-white-wheat-faq (under the heading "CONAGRA MILLS SAYS"). I also found references, both on this forum and elsewhere, to the Eagle Mills all-purpose flour that apparently includes one of the Ultragrain flours (see, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6290.msg54014.html#msg54014).

When I could not find any bread or pizza dough recipes using only the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour, I expanded my search to find another, possibly comparable regular whole wheat flour used alone to make bread or pizza dough. That search turned up a classic bread dough using the King Arthur regular whole wheat flour without any other flours, at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-100-whole-wheat-bread-recipe. By my calculation, the nominal hydration for that recipe is around 57-71%, with the actual value depending on the amount of water needed to properly hydrate the flour. However, that value is increased by the addition of a fair amount of honey, molasses or maple syrup and by a fair amount of oil. By my calculation, and assuming the use of molasses, I estimate that the "effective" hydration of the KA whole wheat flour that takes into account the water content of the molasses and also the oil is between 74.5-88.6%. If I use a similar analysis with your proposed dough formulation using only the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour as set forth in Reply 935 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165416.html#msg165416, in relation to the recipe I described in Reply 898 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164193.html#msg164193, I get an "effective" hydration of 67.24%. That calculation is based on the following dough formulation as produced using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Ultragrain Hard Wheat Flour (100%):
Water (61.7%):
IDY (0.70%):
Sea Salt (1.5%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (2.46%):
Grandma's Original Molasses (14%):
Total (180.36%):
188.62 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
116.38 g  |  4.11 oz | 0.26 lbs
1.32 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
4.64 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
26.41 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs | 3.81 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough is for a single 10" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

I rarely work with whole wheat flours so I am not in a position to say how your dough will turn out and whether you will end up with a credible MM clone pizza using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour. Also, the Ultragrain flours seem to be milled differently than other whole wheat flours, which can also affect the hydration needed to allow the Ultragrain flours to perform at their best. So, I will be interested in your results.

With respect to the use of pizza screens in a home oven, I have used that method many times. For examples of a high-sugar, high-fat content American style dough used with pizza screens, see the Papa John's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. However, for a screen to work properly in a home oven to simulate a conveyor oven, the dough formulation and the screen and the oven and oven protocol (e.g., type of oven, baking substrate, temperatures and times) all have to work in harmony. That usually means having to do a fair amount of experimentation to get the desired results. If it turns out that your dough formulation does not produce the desired results, it is unlikely that the pizza screen will save you. You will have to modify the dough formulation and possibly the oven protocol.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #950 on: January 03, 2012, 04:38:12 PM »
Just prior to leaving town for the holidays, I made and froze another MM clone dough. For the most recent experiment, I used all Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I had used all Steen’s before but the last time I did so I used less and I also used wheat germ, which I was not particularly crazy about. Also, this time, I decided to use a different approach to get the desired crust color rather than focusing as much with sweetness as I have done with all of my past MM clone doughs.

So, instead of determining a desired “sucrose equivalency” value, I tried instead to use an amount of the Steen’s to get me close to the desired dough coloration and then tweaked it bit by bit until I got the color of the dough to something that I believed was close to a real MM clone dough. In this case, I started with 12.5% Steen’s and kept adding more to my Cusinart 14-cup food processor bowl as the dough was mixing until I got the desired degree of dough coloration. When I calculated the final amount of Steen’s, it was 16.94%. When I calculated the “sucrose equivalency” value for that amount of Steen’s, using data that was given to me by the folks at Steen’s, I got a value of 8.47%. I might add at this point that I am suspicious of the sweetness data that Steen’s gave me. So, before I left for vacation, I sent an email to Steen’s in order to get a better handle of the types and amounts of “sugars” used in Steen’s. I am still waiting a response. Without intending to do so, I think my questions may have them flummoxed.

The other baker’s percents I used were 50% hydration, 0.70% IDY, 1.5% salt, and 2.45% oil. The oil this time was canola oil that I decided to use as a test to see if I could detect any difference using that oil. The calculated values of “adjusted hydration” (that takes the moisture content of the Steen’s into account) and “effective hydration” (that also takes the oil into account) for the final quantities of ingredients were 53.9% and 55.3%, respectively.

The frozen MM clone dough ball remained in the freezer for almost 9 days, whereupon I moved it to the refrigerator compartment of my home refrigerator to start to slack out (thaw). I originally intended to use a two-day defrost but a scheduling conflict made it necessary to use a three-day defrost. In retrospect, I was actually happy for the delay because it gave me a chance to see how an MM clone dough, with a fair amount of yeast, might behave with a longer defrost time. As it turned out, the MM dough ball, even while in the refrigerator compartment, was quite gassy. I allowed it to warm up at room temperature (around 65 degrees F) for about an hour and even then it was still gassy and in an expanding mode. I decided to use the dough ball at that time even though it was still cool to the touch and knowing that there might be a lot of bubbling in the finished crust. I had no trouble working with the dough. It behaved just as prior MM clone dough balls behaved, but more billowy. After forming the skin and dressing it, the pizza was baked on a pizza stone that had been positioned on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at 500 degrees F. It took only six minutes to bake the pizza. There was no need to raise the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top crust coloration or to cook the toppings more (I used a combination of green peppers, onions, mushrooms and pepperoni). I might add that for the sauce I used a defrosted Papa John's clone sauce as described at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg61296.html#msg61296. That sauce uses fresh-pack tomatoes, as does MM, but it is not the same sauce as MM uses. However, I was very pleased with the PJ clone sauce.

The pizza turned out very well. However, it did have a lot of large, but soft, bubbles in the finished crust (that I pierced when I removed the pizza from the oven) and the rim of the pizza was large but soft, rather than chewy. The crust was nicely sweet but not cloyingly so, as the 8.47% sucrose equivalency value noted above might have suggested. I can’t say that the canola oil made a difference but, at the same time, it did nothing to detract from the eating experience. I concluded that if one were interested in a softer MM clone pizza rather than a fairly stiff and chewy one, the dough formulation as noted above, along with a three-day defrost and a one-hour warm-up at room temperature, is a very good option. After I was done with the pizza, I went back and, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I revised my original MM clone dough formulation to reflect the final amount of Steen’s that I used. It is as follows:

KABF/VWG Flour Blend* (100%):
Spring Water (50%):
IDY (0.70%):
Salt (1.50%):
Canola Oil (2.45%):
Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup (16.94%):
Total (171.59%):
211.65 g  |  7.47 oz | 0.47 lbs
105.82 g  |  3.73 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.48 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
3.17 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
5.19 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.14 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
35.85 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs
363.16 g | 12.81 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = N/A
*The KABF/VWG blend comprises 205.8 grams (1.26 oz) KABF and 5.9 grams (0.21 oz) Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, with an effective protein content of 14.2%
Note: The 12.81 ounces of dough should be reduced to 12 ounces for a 10” pizza or else be used to make a slightly larger pizza; no bowl residue compensation

When I made the dough as reflected in the above dough formulation, I made a bit extra dough to conduct another “hydration” experiment using my countertop toaster oven. Starting with a flattened (2 ½” diameter) 10-gram piece of dough, I ended up after the prolonged bake at about of 212 degrees F with a weight of a shade under 6 ounces, which was a value that said that my latest MM clone dough was a bit under 40% water. When I calculated the moisture content of the KABF (I used 14%), the moisture content of the Hodgson Mill VWG (using a generic value of 8.2%), and added in the formula water, the final value was 39.97%, or a shade below 40% water. So, my numbers were on the money. All we now need to know what MM is using for hydration is a 10-gram piece of an MM dough ball.

For my next MM clone experiment, I think I will be using a combination of Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and a molasses product along the lines of a Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses. Although I was happy with the all-Steen’s MM clone dough, I think I need to get a bit more “brown” rather than “golden” color in the finished dough. From what Norma has reported from her experiments, I am inclined to believe that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, with 10% blackstrap molasses, may be closer to the type of molasses product that MM is using. So, I may use 10% or maybe a bit more of the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses in my next experiment, and use the same approach I used with my latest dough to get the desired degree of dough and crust coloration.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #951 on: January 03, 2012, 09:42:29 PM »
Peter,

Your latest MM experiments with Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and the small dough ball were interesting.  

I think your posting that Steen’s might be perplexed by your questions is funny.  Steen’s sure didn’t know who they were dealing with all your knowledge.  You probably know more than they do about “sucrose equivalency” or sweetness than they do.   :-D

Glad to hear your pizza turned out well using the Steen’s product.  

I wonder if anyone is going to be able to purchase a real MM dough ball for you to be able to determine the hydration of MM dough.  

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #952 on: January 03, 2012, 09:49:10 PM »
I knew I wouldn’t have time this Monday to make 5 dough balls for a MM clone, so I decided to make one dough ball for a MM clone on Sunday and let the dough ball cold ferment for two days to see how it would go without freezing the dough ball.  The MM clone dough ball that was fermented for 2 days did work out well in making a pizza today.  The MM clone pizza baked about the same.  I did use the Whirl to baste the rim and tasted it.  The Whirl tasted like the stuff that is put on buttered popcorn in the movie theaters.  :) 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #953 on: January 03, 2012, 09:50:43 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #954 on: January 03, 2012, 09:51:35 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #955 on: January 03, 2012, 09:52:34 PM »
Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #956 on: January 04, 2012, 09:01:10 AM »
I also made two MM style pies this week. The first was cold fermented without freezing for about 24 hrs. and baked in my home oven at 550 for oh, 6 or 7 minutes, I guess.(very scientific, I know) Kayla, the pickiest of my neighborhood taste testers loved it! I thought it was very good as well.
 The second pie is from the same batch but cold fermented for 4 days and baked in Norma's deck oven at market. Signs of extensive fermentation were obvious in the prebaked dough. I can't say I noticed much difference in the flavor between the two, keeping in mind of course, my short memory span and the three days between tastings.
 Norma was kind enough to buy me a jar of "Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses", so this this will be included in my next round of NN (Nifty Norma) style pies.







 

Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #957 on: January 04, 2012, 09:03:12 AM »
Second pie

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #958 on: January 04, 2012, 11:15:29 AM »
Steve,

Also a very nice job. Can you compare your recent efforts against the real MM pizza slice(s) you had?

I know you have been working with a version of November's #2 Sauce. Did you use that on the MM clone pizzas and, if so, what was the verdict of the taste testers?

I think you and Norma are ready to give MM a run for their money in your area. Nifty Norma and Stormin' Steve :-D. I like the sound of that name. The next thing you know, you will be into franchising :-D.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #959 on: January 04, 2012, 11:41:29 AM »
 :-D, Peter! You a funny guy, but thanks for the compliments and encouragement!

As to the real MM slice, I only had one and it was a long time ago, so I can't really make a direct comparison. However, i think my attempts are nearly identical to Normas', which if I remember correctly, were very close to the real thing.

Nifty Norma and Stormin' Steve........indeed!


 

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