Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 218181 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #925 on: December 29, 2011, 08:38:20 PM »
Steve,

Thanks for posting your results about your almost 6 day cold fermented MM clone dough and pizza!  :) Your MM clone dough ball sure was fermented a lot.  Did the resulting pizza taste different in the crust and rim because of the almost 6 day cold ferment?  I wish I could have tasted a slice of your MM clone pizza.  It looks like you had nice glistening rim.  What did you use to make the rim glisten so much?

Your MM clone pizza looks delicious!  ;D

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #926 on: December 29, 2011, 09:12:20 PM »
Norma, this pizza tasted very good. As you would expect, any sweetness in the first pizza baked last Sunday was not there today.
I just used melted butter with garlic powder added on the rim.

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #927 on: December 29, 2011, 09:31:29 PM »
Norma, this pizza tasted very good. As you would expect, any sweetness in the first pizza baked last Sunday was not there today.
I just used melted butter with garlic powder added on the rim.

Steve,

I didn’t think about there wouldn’t be any sweetness left from the long cold ferment.

Norma

Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #928 on: December 29, 2011, 11:27:38 PM »
Hello Peter and Norma,

My name is Jared. I commented earlier about making the MM#7 dough recipe with the All Trumps flour.

I made the latest formulation from Peters post#898. I used 1.5% salt and replaced the oil with extra virgin olive oil. I also used 12% Newcastle brown ale and 38% water. All Trumps flour (13.7% protein I believe). Everything else the same.

I balled the dough into a tight ball and let it sit covered in the fridge for 24 hours @ 41 degrees. I allowed it to rest out of the fridge for 30 minutes room temp (68), opened and panned it, let it rest on the pan for 1 hour (68) then proceeded to bake the pie in a conveyor pizza oven.

I should have taken a photo of the crumb but I wasnt thinking about it at the moment. The resulting crust did not rise like you two have been getting in your crusts. The crumb was somewhat dense like a piece of sliced bread. The rim was very much the consistency of store bought bread. The flavor was similar to MM but the color and crumb wasnt.

Is this because of the cold rise im doing? The conveyor oven vs. deck oven? The beer?

Any help is always greatly appreciated.


On a side note I just received some ConAgra Ultragrain Hard Whole Wheat flour that im going to experiment with. I found some posts on this forum about it and it looks like you can make a pretty tasty pie with it!

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #929 on: December 30, 2011, 08:20:54 AM »
Hello Peter and Norma,

My name is Jared. I commented earlier about making the MM#7 dough recipe with the All Trumps flour.

I made the latest formulation from Peters post#898. I used 1.5% salt and replaced the oil with extra virgin olive oil. I also used 12% Newcastle brown ale and 38% water. All Trumps flour (13.7% protein I believe). Everything else the same.

I balled the dough into a tight ball and let it sit covered in the fridge for 24 hours @ 41 degrees. I allowed it to rest out of the fridge for 30 minutes room temp (68), opened and panned it, let it rest on the pan for 1 hour (68) then proceeded to bake the pie in a conveyor pizza oven.

I should have taken a photo of the crumb but I wasnt thinking about it at the moment. The resulting crust did not rise like you two have been getting in your crusts. The crumb was somewhat dense like a piece of sliced bread. The rim was very much the consistency of store bought bread. The flavor was similar to MM but the color and crumb wasnt.

Is this because of the cold rise im doing? The conveyor oven vs. deck oven? The beer?

Any help is always greatly appreciated.


On a side note I just received some ConAgra Ultragrain Hard Whole Wheat flour that im going to experiment with. I found some posts on this forum about it and it looks like you can make a pretty tasty pie with it!

jwj101,

If you used Peter’s formula at Reply 898 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164193.html#msg164193  I think Peter said in that post that the crust did pass muster for sweetness, but he would have preferred a little sweeter crust and the color was a little off from the amount of molasses in that formulation.  I will wait to see what Peter replies, but why did you replace part of the water with Newcastle brown ale? I don’t have any idea how ale would change the outcome of the final MM clone pizza, using Peter’s formulation.  Did you form the rim on the dough ball like some of the videos posted on this thread?  Also after letting the dough ball sit out for 30 minutes, then opening the dough ball, why did you let the skin rest on the pan for 1 hr.  Maybe, you could have just let the dough ball warm-up longer instead of letting the skin rest on the pan for 1 hr.  Are you a professional pizza operator in that you do have a conveyor pizza oven?  In my opinion, All Trumps should have worked okay if that is the flour you used.  I wonder about using ConAgra Ultragrain Hard Whole Wheat flour in one of the formulations that are posted on this thread.  I recently used Ultragrain flour and really had to really up the percentage of hydration in the formulation I used, but that was on another thread. 

Norma

Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #930 on: December 30, 2011, 12:01:36 PM »
Thank you for your reply Norma.

Im not in the pizza business but my parent-in-laws are which is how I have access to a conveyor oven. I just really enjoy pizza! The reason for the timings is that their restaurant is an hour drive from where I live so I panned the crust before I left. I should have waited until I arrived there to open and pan the dough.

The reason for adding Newcastle brown ale was to include that hops type flavor complexity that I prefer. I know it doesnt coincide with MM dough. It was just a personal preference.

I watched the videos on how MM opens their dough and that was the method I used. The problem could be in my ball weight. I used a 21 oz. ball of dough for a 16" pie. What weights are you using?


For my next experiment I will use the Ultragrain with the previous formulation with the exception of increasing the molasses a couple percent for more residual sugar. Im just curious if the flavor will be anywhere near the same as with white flour.

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #931 on: December 30, 2011, 12:57:32 PM »
Thank you for your reply Norma.

Im not in the pizza business but my parent-in-laws are which is how I have access to a conveyor oven. I just really enjoy pizza! The reason for the timings is that their restaurant is an hour drive from where I live so I panned the crust before I left. I should have waited until I arrived there to open and pan the dough.

The reason for adding Newcastle brown ale was to include that hops type flavor complexity that I prefer. I know it doesnt coincide with MM dough. It was just a personal preference.

I watched the videos on how MM opens their dough and that was the method I used. The problem could be in my ball weight. I used a 21 oz. ball of dough for a 16" pie. What weights are you using?


For my next experiment I will use the Ultragrain with the previous formulation with the exception of increasing the molasses a couple percent for more residual sugar. Im just curious if the flavor will be anywhere near the same as with white flour.

jwj101,

Thanks for posting how you have access to a conveyor oven.  It probably would be a good idea to wait until you are at parent-in-laws pizza business to open the dough.  Do you directly put the pizza on a pan for it to go though the conveyor oven?  I don’t know a lot about conveyor ovens.  You also might want to try and do a couple of experiments at home in your oven.  Other members have had good results with their home ovens in attempts to make MM clones.

If you are interested in adding beer or ale to the MM dough formulation, maybe you might be interested in what Tom Lehmann replied to me about using beer in a dough.  This is the post where Tom Lehmann answered me at PMQTT. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=57042#p57042 He said he used beer to replace 15% of the water used in a dough formula. I since learned from November that all the alcohol isn’t evaporated out of the crust at Reply 409 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg104343.html#msg104343

I have only been making 14” pizza so far in this thread and the TF I am using is 0.1204643 and the weight of the dough balls are 1.16 lbs.  I you want to figure out the amount of dough or TF for your 16” MM clone pizza you can use the Expanded Pizza Calculating Tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and either put in the dough weight you want to use or the TF.  I used the TF for the MM clone doughs I am attempting.

If you are planning on using the Ultragrain flour in an MM clone dough attempt, you might want to look at my thread about using the Ultragrain flour and how I had to up the hydration for a regular Lehmann dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16823.0.html  I wouldn’t be able to tell you how much to up the hydration if you want to try the Ultragrain flour in a MM clone attempt.

Best of luck!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 01:03:52 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #932 on: December 30, 2011, 02:28:13 PM »
I finally made the pizza with the dough I brought to Norma's  stand and then took back home with me.  After almost 6 days of cold fermentation, the dough was still quite lively and baked up nicely. Crispy on the bottom with a nice moist crumb.


Steve,

That's a mighty fine looking pizza, in all respects. Was the dough formulation you used the one that Norma posted at Reply 505 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158009.html#msg158009 ? As you may recall, MM reportedly uses fresh dough for their stores within a certain distance of their commissary. What is not known is whether MM uses less yeast for those stores than they use for their frozen dough balls, or make some other kind of adjustment. However, it would be highly unlikely that the stores that use frozen dough would let the dough balls cold ferment for almost six days.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #933 on: December 30, 2011, 03:10:02 PM »
Jared,

You made so many changes to the MM clone dough formulation that you referenced that it becomes very difficult to do a proper diagnosis and render a useful prognosis. However, I will try to walk through all of the changes you made and offer my comments.

To begin, I do not think that using the Newcastle Brown Ale was a problem. However, when you used 12% Newcastle Brown Ale with 38% water, to equal the 50% formula hydration in the recipe you used, you should have made an adjustment to the total hydration to reflect the fact that ales, like beer, are not all water. About 90% is water. So, adding about 10% more solids to the recipe without adjusting the formula hydration would have made for a lower hydration dough. The final value would be increased to reflect the water content of the molasses and the addition of the oil, but the total may still have been to low to perform optimally, including getting a good oven spring. The latter was also not helped when you decided to use a pan instead of a pizza stone. The reason is that before the dough for the pizza can start to bake and to rise, the pan itself has to get up to the proper bake temperature. Depending on the type of pan and its characteristics, including type of metal and its thickness, that can take some time. At the same time as that is occurring, the top of the pizza is getting top heat to start to bake the pizza. Without sufficient bottom heat, it would be difficult to get an optimum oven spring. As Norma noted, you perhaps should have let the dough ball rise longer rather than forming a skin and letting it rise in the pan. That step, perhaps along with others that you used that were out of the norm for an MM clone pizza, may have been responsible for the texture of the crust and crumb that you experienced.

Finally, the use of a conveyor oven to bake a pizza that is intended to be baked in a deck oven, introduces its own set of problems since it is hard to get a hearth type bake using a conveyor oven instead of a deck oven. What some pizza operators do is to use special cloud type disks (such as sold by PizzaTools and shown at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/quik-disks/hearth-bake-disks) to get a hearth type bake out of a conveyor oven. It may also be possible to use a special pan such as shown at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/deep-dish-pans/deep-dish-thick-crust.

In order to do what you are attempting to do will require a material change in the MM clone dough formulation you used and quite likely the bake protocol also. Should you decide to proceed along those lines, you might want to start a new thread so as not to steer this one in a new direction. Even then, you may want to use an approach that changes only one variable at a time, whether it is in the dough formulation you decide to use or in the bake protocol.  

BTW, the All Trumps flour has a protein content of 14.2%. We don't know for sure what the protein content is for the flour that MM uses but I do not think that using the All Trumps should have been a problem.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 03:13:05 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #934 on: December 30, 2011, 06:13:39 PM »
Steve,

That's a mighty fine looking pizza, in all respects. Was the dough formulation you used the one that Norma posted at Reply 505 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158009.html#msg158009 ? As you may recall, MM reportedly uses fresh dough for their stores within a certain distance of their commissary. What is not known is whether MM uses less yeast for those stores than they use for their frozen dough balls, or make some other kind of adjustment. However, it would be highly unlikely that the stores that use frozen dough would let the dough balls cold ferment for almost six days.

Peter

Peter,
 Thanks for the compliment. My family and I really enjoyed that pizza. Yes, I believe that was the formula I used, including the Grandma's molasses and dark brown sugar. That dough ball was one of two that I made last Friday PM and froze after waiting about an hour. On Sat. nite I moved both balls from freezer to fridge. On Sunday I made a pizza(sorry, no photos) with one and left the other in the fridge (except for the trip to Norma's and back!)until yesterday. I was really surprised how well that dough held up that long, especially with so much yeast. I think I liked the second pizza better than the first. The sweetness was gone, as you might expect, and the dough acquired a more complex, almost "nutty" flavor that I can't really describe. I may try another long cold ferment without the initial freeze, just to see what happens.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 06:15:10 PM by Ev »

Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #935 on: December 30, 2011, 11:13:53 PM »
Jared,

You made so many changes to the MM clone dough formulation that you referenced that it becomes very difficult to do a proper diagnosis and render a useful prognosis. However, I will try to walk through all of the changes you made and offer my comments.

To begin, I do not think that using the Newcastle Brown Ale was a problem. However, when you used 12% Newcastle Brown Ale with 38% water, to equal the 50% formula hydration in the recipe you used, you should have made an adjustment to the total hydration to reflect the fact that ales, like beer, are not all water. About 90% is water. So, adding about 10% more solids to the recipe without adjusting the formula hydration would have made for a lower hydration dough. The final value would be increased to reflect the water content of the molasses and the addition of the oil, but the total may still have been to low to perform optimally, including getting a good oven spring. The latter was also not helped when you decided to use a pan instead of a pizza stone. The reason is that before the dough for the pizza can start to bake and to rise, the pan itself has to get up to the proper bake temperature. Depending on the type of pan and its characteristics, including type of metal and its thickness, that can take some time. At the same time as that is occurring, the top of the pizza is getting top heat to start to bake the pizza. Without sufficient bottom heat, it would be difficult to get an optimum oven spring. As Norma noted, you perhaps should have let the dough ball rise longer rather than forming a skin and letting it rise in the pan. That step, perhaps along with others that you used that were out of the norm for an MM clone pizza, may have been responsible for the texture of the crust and crumb that you experienced.

Finally, the use of a conveyor oven to bake a pizza that is intended to be baked in a deck oven, introduces its own set of problems since it is hard to get a hearth type bake using a conveyor oven instead of a deck oven. What some pizza operators do is to use special cloud type disks (such as sold by PizzaTools and shown at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/quik-disks/hearth-bake-disks) to get a hearth type bake out of a conveyor oven. It may also be possible to use a special pan such as shown at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/deep-dish-pans/deep-dish-thick-crust.

In order to do what you are attempting to do will require a material change in the MM clone dough formulation you used and quite likely the bake protocol also. Should you decide to proceed along those lines, you might want to start a new thread so as not to steer this one in a new direction. Even then, you may want to use an approach that changes only one variable at a time, whether it is in the dough formulation you decide to use or in the bake protocol. 

BTW, the All Trumps flour has a protein content of 14.2%. We don't know for sure what the protein content is for the flour that MM uses but I do not think that using the All Trumps should have been a problem.

Peter


Thank you for your insight Peter!

I know that I made too many variable changes which make it near impossible to determine where I was going wrong. I may work on a conveyor oven based formulation on down the road but I really want to get this formulation to work for me. I looked at the pans you linked to. I never knew there were so many options to accomplish many different bakes.

The pan I currently have is the T Fal Airbake Ultra found here: http://www.amazon.com/AirBake-Ultra-Insulated-15-75-Inch-Perforated/dp/B000063SKQ/?tag=pizzamaking-20 I may order a few more just to compare and contrast differences.

For this dough would you recommend using a 1/2" steel sheet or get a pizza stone for a conventional oven? I read in a different post that 1/2" steel has the same thermal qualities that 1" stone has. Im just curious if it would be a worth while investment.

Im going to attempt an exact copy of your most recent MM formulation and the freezing, thawing, baking process to see if I get the same outcome. Im going to wait until I know for sure which baking platform to get before I start.

For now I made a MM type dough but used Ultragrain wheat flour in place of white high gluten flour to see how it impacts the overall flavor.

I used the following formulation:

100% Ultragrain
14% Grandmas Molasses
1.5% Sea Salt
2.46% EVOO (Its the only oil I currently have)
.7% IDY
61.7% Water (Educated guess based on the post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16823.0.html about Ultragrain)

The dough mixed up pretty well. It was a tad on the wet side but was easily manageable. I will report later on how it bakes.



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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #936 on: December 31, 2011, 09:56:45 AM »
Now that im thinking about it, I should have made slight increases to the rest of the ingredients because of the increase in the water needed for Ultragrain.

Is this correct thinking or will the evaporation increase because of the larger amount of water included in the formulation?

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #937 on: December 31, 2011, 11:05:52 AM »
Thanks for the compliment. My family and I really enjoyed that pizza. Yes, I believe that was the formula I used, including the Grandma's molasses and dark brown sugar. That dough ball was one of two that I made last Friday PM and froze after waiting about an hour. On Sat. nite I moved both balls from freezer to fridge. On Sunday I made a pizza(sorry, no photos) with one and left the other in the fridge (except for the trip to Norma's and back!)until yesterday. I was really surprised how well that dough held up that long, especially with so much yeast. I think I liked the second pizza better than the first. The sweetness was gone, as you might expect, and the dough acquired a more complex, almost "nutty" flavor that I can't really describe. I may try another long cold ferment without the initial freeze, just to see what happens.

Steve,

Thanks for clarifying what you did. I had thought that you skipped the freezing step and went directly to a long cold ferment. Out of curiosity, I went back to Norma's MM clone dough recipe at Reply 505 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158009.html#msg158009 and calculated a "sucrose equivalency" value for that recipe. It is 4.876%. That is a value that is in a range that is detectable as sweetness on the palates of most people but just about so (in my experience with high sugar doughs, about 4-5% sugar seems to be the crossover point for most people). I suspect that there was still a fair amount of sugars in the clone dough you made even after several days of cold fermentation but that the total sugars slipped below the level at which they would have been detectable as sweetness. It would not have taken a big drop in sugars. Also, with the salt at 2%, that amount may also have masked some of the sweetness, as I discovered when I recently did some salt/sugar tests that showed a drop of sweetness when the salt levels went up. Those results prompted me to lower the salt to around 1.50%.

On the matter of the amount of yeast, I originally started at 0.60% IDY, on the assumption that the there would be some loss of yeast cells during freezing in my static freezer and that maybe a fair amount of yeast would be needed to give that extra "oomph" for a dough that was quite low in hydration. This was in line with my undertanding, as reported at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1599.msg16169/topicseen.html#msg16169, that freezing dough can result in a loss ofyeast leavening power of 20% or more.

As time went on and I kept lowering the hydration (the "effective" hydration that took into account the amount of water content in the molasses and the amount of oil), I upped the IDY to 0.70% to compensate for the lower effective hydration value. I have not done much experimentation with yeast levels outside of the range of 0.60-0.70% for frozen MM clone doughs, but I am currently comfortable with the 0.70% value for my latest MM clone doughs. Interestingly, when I recently saw that Tom Lehmann estimated a value of IDY for a Domino's frozen clone dough of around 0.50%, as discussed at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10174&hilit=#p72903, that led me to believe that our use of IDY at 0.60-.70% is perhaps credible. Remember, also, that the 0.50% value that Tom mentioned is for a dough that is flash frozen at very low temperatures, which is less harmful to yeast than the slower static freezing methods we use in our home refrigerator freezers (e.g., see Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3239.msg27384.html#msg27384). The Domino's dough is also a high sugar dough (using sucrose) so a value of around 0.60-0.70% IDY for our MM applications seems to be reasonable and appropriate. For MM clone doughs that are to undergo normal cold fermentation (without freezing), which I believe Norma indicated she would like to try, I would go with considerably less yeast, maybe around half of the frozen rate.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 06:29:07 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #938 on: December 31, 2011, 11:42:04 AM »
Peter,

From Steve post at Reply 934 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165375.html#msg165375  Steve posted he used dark brown sugar in the MM formulation I tried with light brown sugar.  Since I would think dark brown sugar has more molasses added than light brown sugar, wouldn’t that also made his attempt higher in
“sucrose equivalency” value?

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #939 on: December 31, 2011, 05:06:53 PM »
Actually, as far as the yeast amount is concerned, I just remembered that I had reduced the amount to .5%. That value also seemed to work well for the pizza that was thawed and baked right away. Last night I made two more dough balls using the same formula, but without freezing. I'll be baking one later this evening and the other I'll bring to market on Tuesday to bake in Norma's oven. I'll try to get some decent photos tonight if my camera flash co-operates.
 BTW, I scaled the formula up to make 16" pizzas, for both the previous pizzas and the up-coming pies.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #940 on: December 31, 2011, 05:19:59 PM »
From Steve post at Reply 934 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165375.html#msg165375  Steve posted he used dark brown sugar in the MM formulation I tried with light brown sugar.  Since I would think dark brown sugar has more molasses added than light brown sugar, wouldn’t that also made his attempt higher in
“sucrose equivalency” value?

Norma,

Since both light brown sugar and dark brown sugar are over 90% sucrose, and to avoid having to do two pages of calculations to come up with "sucrose equivalency" values for the small amounts of molasses in light and dark brown sugar (about 3.5% molasses, or 0.217 grams, for the light brown sugar; and about 6.5% molasses, or 0.403 grams, for the dark brown sugar), I treated the entire weight of brown sugar (6.2 grams) as sucrose. As you can see from the above numbers, there isn't enough molasses in the total amount of brown sugar, either light or dark, to move the sweetness needle much. To try to prove the point, I made estimates of the amount of ash and nutrient content in the molasses used by the two types of brown sugars, and then did several calculations on the molasses contents to arrive at sucrose equivalents for both amounts of molasses. For this purpose, I assumed that the molasses in both cases was about 22% water. I then added in the equivalency numbers that I had calculated before for the Grandma's Original molasses by itself. When the dust settled, I had an estimate of sucrose equivalency of 4.82% for the combination of light brown sugar and Grandma's Original molasses, and a sucrose equivalency of 4.782% for the combination of dark brown sugar and Grandma's Original molasses. The value I posted earlier was 4.876%. If my assumptions and numbers are correct, the differences are so small that they almost aren't measurable.

Where there may be a difference when using the dark brown sugar is a slightly darker dough and crust and maybe a bit more tang from the flavor perspective. Moreover, the above numbers show a reduced sweetness using the dark brown sugar. That makes sense since there is more sucrose in a sample of light brown sugar than in a similar sample of dark brown sugar (as noted above, there is about 3.5% molasses in light brown sugar and about 6.5% molasses in the dark brown sugar).

I hope you wont be too hard on Steve because he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar without your prior written and notarized authorization witnessed and attested to by three of your taste testers. And please don't make him stay after market next Tuesday when everyone else has gone home and write on the blackboard a hundred times that he won't do that again. His brown sugar switch gave me an opportunity to learn more about brown sugars and their effects on a finished product.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #941 on: December 31, 2011, 06:00:16 PM »
The pan I currently have is the T Fal Airbake Ultra found here: http://www.amazon.com/AirBake-Ultra-Insulated-15-75-Inch-Perforated/dp/B000063SKQ/ref=dp_cp_ob_k_title_2. I may order a few more just to compare and contrast differences.

For this dough would you recommend using a 1/2" steel sheet or get a pizza stone for a conventional oven? I read in a different post that 1/2" steel has the same thermal qualities that 1" stone has. Im just curious if it would be a worth while investment.

Jared,

I have not had any experience with the pan you referenced but if you are to use a pan the ideal pan is one that is either seasoned (at least the outside) or with a dark anodized coating (but with no nonstick coating that might break down and produce noxious fumes if used at oven temperatures above a stated value). The disadvantage of a light colored pan, such as the fairly bright aluminum pan you referenced, is that it will have a tendency to reflect heat rather than absorb it and help the pizza bake better and faster. If you would like to continue to use a conveyor oven, you might consider using a simple pizza screen. That was one of the options I mentioned some time ago in this thread but have not tried it. But I believe that using a pizza screen to make an MM clone pizza in a conveyor oven should work quite well, as I discovered when making similar high-sugar American style doughs/pizzas (e.g., Papa John's clone doughs/pizzas) using pizza screens in my home oven. The bottom crust of such pizzas will not be the same as those baked on a stone (MM uses mostly deck ovens with top and bottom stones) but I think you will still get a pretty decent pizza.

I have not worked with steel sheets so I am not qualified to speak on whether such a sheet would work for the MM style pizza. It seems to me that most of the members who use the steel sheets look for a fast bake, a good example of which is the NY style. The MM pizzas as baked at MM stores are said to take a fairly long time to bake, with typical bake times as high as 10-20 minutes (see, for example, Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151292.html#msg151292 and the MM video at ).

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #942 on: December 31, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »
Now that im thinking about it, I should have made slight increases to the rest of the ingredients because of the increase in the water needed for Ultragrain.

Is this correct thinking or will the evaporation increase because of the larger amount of water included in the formulation?

Jared,

If you use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, that tool will make all of the necessary adjustments to the remaining ingredients so that the total dough weight remains the same for a given size pizza. However, the baker's percents for the various ingredients have to be workable, including the hydration baker's percent.

There are two Ultragrain products, with different absorption characteristics. Can you tell me which one you have?

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #943 on: December 31, 2011, 06:49:47 PM »
Jared,

If you use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, that tool will make all of the necessary adjustments to the remaining ingredients so that the total dough weight remains the same for a given size pizza. However, the baker's percents for the various ingredients have to be workable, including the hydration baker's percent.

There are two Ultragrain products, with different absorption characteristics. Can you tell me which one you have?

Peter

I have the Hard Whole Wheat which I gathered is 13.7% protein content.

I do have a simple mesh pizza screen somewhere. Would this work well in a conventional oven as well as a conveyor oven?

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #944 on: December 31, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »
Quote
I hope you wont be too hard on Steve because he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar without your prior written and notarized authorization witnessed and attested to by three of your taste testers. And please don't make him stay after market next Tuesday when everyone else has gone home and write on the blackboard a hundred times that he won't do that again. His brown sugar switch gave me an opportunity to learn more about brown sugars and their effects on a finished product.

Did you get that Norma?  :-D

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #945 on: December 31, 2011, 09:10:04 PM »

Peter,

I knew after I posted the question about the light brown and dark brown sugars, I should not have posted that question.  I never want to make you do two pages of calculations to come up with “sucrose equivalency” values for the small differences in the two sugars (light and dark).   I can see by the numbers you posted there isn’t enough molasses in the total amount of brown sugar (light or dark) to move the needle much.  I should have thought about that before I posted.  I also didn’t think sensibly that the actual numbers would show a reduced sweetness.  

I am never hard on Steve, and sure wouldn’t be if he used dark brown sugar instead of light brown sugar.  Steve is my pizza making buddy  :) and I learn a lot from him.  It is Steve and Randy (another of my taste testers) that gives me a hard time every week.  You and any other members wouldn’t believe what they do every week, but it all is in good fun.

Sorry to make you work again today in figuring out the light brown and dark brown sugar stuff.  :angel:

Norma
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 09:56:00 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #946 on: December 31, 2011, 09:16:42 PM »
Did you get that Norma?  :-D

Steve,

Trace it, face it, and erase it!  :-D Can’t wait to try you extra MM dough ball when it is made into a pizza Tuesday.  ;D

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #947 on: December 31, 2011, 10:10:23 PM »
Sorry to make you work again today in figuring out the light brown and dark brown sugar stuff.  :angel:

Norma,

No need to apologize. Even though I knew that the molasses component of brown sugar was small and wouldn't affect the numbers much, your question was still a good one--and perhaps one that would occur to others also. Doing the calculations was a good way for me to better understand the impact of brown sugars on the total numbers.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #948 on: January 01, 2012, 10:08:32 AM »
Quote
It is Steve and Randy (another of my taste testers) that gives me a hard time every week.  You and any other members wouldn’t believe what they do every week, but it all is in good fun.

 :o :-[ >:D :angel: :-D

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #949 on: January 01, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »
I have the Hard Whole Wheat which I gathered is 13.7% protein content.

I do have a simple mesh pizza screen somewhere. Would this work well in a conventional oven as well as a conveyor oven?

Jared,

Yesterday, I did a considerable amount of searching for dough recipes, and preferably pizza dough recipes, using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour all by itself, that is, without combining with other flours as is a very common practice. What I was looking for was some examples of hydration values used for bread or pizza doughs made using Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour. I came up emptyhanded. If anything, my search indicated that the recommended use of the Ultragrain flours is to combine them with other flours, with a good example of this recommendation being given in the document at http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/whole-white-wheat-faq (under the heading "CONAGRA MILLS SAYS"). I also found references, both on this forum and elsewhere, to the Eagle Mills all-purpose flour that apparently includes one of the Ultragrain flours (see, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6290.msg54014.html#msg54014).

When I could not find any bread or pizza dough recipes using only the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour, I expanded my search to find another, possibly comparable regular whole wheat flour used alone to make bread or pizza dough. That search turned up a classic bread dough using the King Arthur regular whole wheat flour without any other flours, at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-100-whole-wheat-bread-recipe. By my calculation, the nominal hydration for that recipe is around 57-71%, with the actual value depending on the amount of water needed to properly hydrate the flour. However, that value is increased by the addition of a fair amount of honey, molasses or maple syrup and by a fair amount of oil. By my calculation, and assuming the use of molasses, I estimate that the "effective" hydration of the KA whole wheat flour that takes into account the water content of the molasses and also the oil is between 74.5-88.6%. If I use a similar analysis with your proposed dough formulation using only the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour as set forth in Reply 935 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165416.html#msg165416, in relation to the recipe I described in Reply 898 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164193.html#msg164193, I get an "effective" hydration of 67.24%. That calculation is based on the following dough formulation as produced using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Ultragrain Hard Wheat Flour (100%):
Water (61.7%):
IDY (0.70%):
Sea Salt (1.5%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (2.46%):
Grandma's Original Molasses (14%):
Total (180.36%):
188.62 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
116.38 g  |  4.11 oz | 0.26 lbs
1.32 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
4.64 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
26.41 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs | 3.81 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough is for a single 10" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

I rarely work with whole wheat flours so I am not in a position to say how your dough will turn out and whether you will end up with a credible MM clone pizza using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour. Also, the Ultragrain flours seem to be milled differently than other whole wheat flours, which can also affect the hydration needed to allow the Ultragrain flours to perform at their best. So, I will be interested in your results.

With respect to the use of pizza screens in a home oven, I have used that method many times. For examples of a high-sugar, high-fat content American style dough used with pizza screens, see the Papa John's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. However, for a screen to work properly in a home oven to simulate a conveyor oven, the dough formulation and the screen and the oven and oven protocol (e.g., type of oven, baking substrate, temperatures and times) all have to work in harmony. That usually means having to do a fair amount of experimentation to get the desired results. If it turns out that your dough formulation does not produce the desired results, it is unlikely that the pizza screen will save you. You will have to modify the dough formulation and possibly the oven protocol.

Peter


 

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