Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for running the test. That is good news and those are good numbers. The differences are most likely within the margin of error. If you repeat the experiment, you might reverse the two lids and average the two sets of numbers for each skin. But your results, and those of Bob as well, seem to confirm that the hydration values of the real MM dough and our clone MM doughs are about the same--around 50%. So, it looks like we have been on the money for some time. Now, if we can get a correct dough ball weight for the 10" pizza, that would be nice.

On the matter of a gluten test for you to consider, this afternoon I retrieved the MM clone dough that I had planned to discard and conducted a simple gluten test. I arbitrarily took a 5-ounce sample of the dough and washed it under a continuous stream of cold water. To be sure that I didn't lose any of the sample, I washed it over a flour sifting screen that I had placed over a container to collect the water. The screen was used to catch any of the gluten that might slip through my fingers (as it turned out, I was able to keep all of the gluten in my hands). I kneaded the dough under the cold stream of water and squeezed it as hard as I could to be sure that everything but the gluten was washed away. At the beginning, the liquids were white (from the starch in the dough) but after about 10 minutes, the water ran clear. What remained was a somewhat rubbery gluten mass. It was mushy and a light brown in color. Whether that is the natural color of gluten or colored by the molasses, I have no idea.

I dried the gluten mass on some paper towels (being careful so that the gluten wouldn't stick to the paper towels) for about a minute and then weighed it. The original piece of dough was about 142 grams; the gluten mass was around 53 grams. The percent of wet gluten was thus a bit over 37%. That seems to be in the ballpark for bread flour, although there can be differences from one flour lot to another and from one wheat cultivar to another. As the gluten mass dried more, the percent dropped by another couple percent. I know that this isn't the ideal test, given that the dough also contained yeast, salt, oil and molasses, but if one does a comparative test with two doughs with the same ingredients, the relative numbers should be instructive. Remember, also, that my dough ball had vital wheat gluten as well as the King Arthur bread flour. So, your test should be better than mine.

The above test was very easy to perform. So, if you are able to conduct similar tests on a sample of the MM dough and a like sample (by weight) of your MM clone dough, we might be able to compare the weights of the two gluten masses to determine whether MM is using a flour with a higher or lower protein content than the high-gluten flour that you used to make your MM clone dough. Was it KASL? If this test works, then it might be possible to conduct another gluten test (a baking test) to confirm the results of the first gluten test.

Peter

Peter,

I did run the second test and now believe there is a margin of slight error in the weight numbers.  The second test showed the MM dough weighed 5.91 gram after it was baked and the MM clone dough weighed 5.95.  I did reverse the lids and some dough baked to both of the bottoms of the lids this time.  Good to hear that since Bob and I did the tests the hydration is around 50% for our clone dough balls and MM doughs. I knew you must figured out everything well to have us on the money for some time.  

I have to go run errands and take someone somewhere tomorrow morning, but should be able to do the gluten test in the afternoon.  The gluten test sounds very interesting and simple to do.  I will follow your directions.  It is very interesting that you could tell from the gluten test what the gluten percent for flour was from that test.  I don’t know how to do the baking test, if the gluten test work out, but will wait and see how the gluten test works out with my leftover MM clone dough ball and Bob’s MM dough.  

I am still using KASL for the flour in all of my MM clone doughs.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I'll believe it when I see it. This George Jones song may be predictive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRawHk2BckU.

Peter

Peter,

I am not a fan of the “no show” sometimes George Jones.  I saw him one time in concert with others at Hershey, but I never heard that song by George Jones.  That was a great find fitting for this thread.  I got a laugh out of  that George Jones song.    Hopefully we find our way out of Texas.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

The U.S.Mint says a nickel weighs exactly 5 grams....toss one up on there and see what you get!  

Bob

Bob,

I did weigh 3 nickels on my new scale today.  I guess there is a margin for errors in nickels too, because all of my weights weren't exactly the same.  Two of them looked pretty worn though.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I have to go run errands and take someone somewhere tomorrow morning, but should be able to do the gluten test in the afternoon.  The gluten test sounds very interesting and simple to do.  I will follow your directions.  It is very interesting that you could tell from the gluten test what the gluten percent for flour was from that test.  I don’t know how to do the baking test, if the gluten test work out, but will wait and see how the gluten test works out with my leftover MM clone dough ball and Bob’s MM dough.  

Norma,

The gluten tests might clarify the protein content of the flour that MM has been using. As you know, all MM has said is that they use a high-gluten flour. That can mean just about anything from about 13.5-14.2%, assuming that they are using a standard high-gluten flour. If the gluten tests show that MM is using a lower protein flour than the KASL, that could affect the MM clone dough formulation, including one for a roughly 11-ounce dough ball.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The gluten tests might clarify the protein content of the flour that MM has been using. As you know, all MM has said is that they use a high-gluten flour. That can mean just about anything from about 13.5-14.2%, assuming that they are using a standard high-gluten flour. If the gluten tests show that MM is using a lower protein flour than the KASL, that could affect the MM clone dough formulation, including one for a roughly 11-ounce dough ball.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting that the gluten tests might clarify the protein content of the flour MM has been using.  I know all MM has said is that they use a high-gluten flour.  I didn’t know that if the gluten tests show that MM is using a lower protein flour than the KASL, that could affect the MM clone dough formulation, including one for a roughly 11-ounce dough ball.

I will burn the midnight oil a little later and do the gluten tests.  I don’t want Bob’s MM dough ball, that is now in my possession, to go bad before I can do any tests that need to be done.

Will report back tomorrow.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,

Earlier I said that I made a mistake like a rookie, not like a...........ha! 
Anyway,no,there was not a chunk of dough missing from that frozen 11.15 small dough ball in the baggie that you expressed concern about with it possibly hiding a secret inside of the baggie it was photo'd in. It did have 3 flattened sides on it, I suspect from growing up "stand'in in the corner" of a tray before MM slices them somewhere along the production line to "keep 'em separated".

In fact,I think I may have found his twin or at least a very similar "clone" of him tonight!    I went to my MM shop again this evening and bought another "small' along with a "large" just for grins.  This "small" weighed in at 11.20oz. and Big Joe weighs 26.95.! But something tells me  you knew that was what he'd be.....


So, to recap and conclude my far-out frozen MM dough ball buying groovy experience.......the Durham,NC. MM shop sells dough balls they get from their Atlanta,Ga.(that's what they told me) commissary to the public as follows.....
small;approx.11oz. $3
medium;approx.19oz.$4
Big Joe;approx.27oz.$5

Notice these weights are separated individually by 8oz each.
The old "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" TV show on late Sunday night would always end with an old hippie dude saying......."eights"!   Wonder if there is some sort of cosmic connection going on here man....maybe Peter knows! 

Bob

Amarillo by morn'in.....

[norma427]

Peter,

This was the experiment for the gluten test.  I followed your instructions and the gluten mass was just like you described in your experiment.  Both doughs were weighed at 5 ounces or 142 grams on my regular kitchen scale.  They were weighed in ounces and grams before the experiment. 

The MM dough was tested first.  It weighed 41.83 after the test.  The MM clone  made with KASL weighed 43.65 after the test.  You are right that the gluten masses did lose weight after the initial testing and weighings.  I let the dough balls out for an hour and just played around with them different times.  The MM gluten mass seemed much stronger, in that it almost windowpane when stretching it.  The MM clone dough did window pane some, but nothing like the MM dough.  I sure don’t know what that means.  The gluten masses were weighed on my new small scale.

They both are now labeled and placed in my refrigerator for future uses or just to watch to see what happens with a gluten mass.

This was a fun experiment.  I like to watch how the starch goes out of dough.  I have no idea if all the yeast is also washed out of the dough with the water, or even the oil.  I would think the color of the dough is from the molasses, but can’t be sure.

If there are more tests to do from here, let me know what you want me to do for a bake test.  I kept switching my camera over to different exposures for some reason, so that is why some of the pictures were deleted.

Update this morning on the two dough gluten masses that I removed from the refrigerator.

Both doughs stretch very nicely, are combine into a somewhat smooth gluten masses, have water that could be patted dry again, and look similar in color.  For the heck of it I weighed both of them without trying to remove any of the liquid and now the MM gluten mass weighs 38.48 gram and the MM clone gluten mass weighs 35.89 gram.  This lead me to wonder if these gluten tests can really tell anything.  Sorry, I didn’t have time for pictures this morning, but will take some later, if anyone wants to see what the gluten masses look like today.

I guess like Bob posted we still are in Amarillo this morning….  Maybe his post will help us get out of there. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

So, to recap and conclude my far-out frozen MM dough ball buying groovy experience.......the Durham,NC. MM shop sells dough balls they get from their Atlanta,Ga.(that's what they told me) commissary to the public as follows.....
small;approx.11oz. $3
medium;approx.19oz.$4
Big Joe;approx.27oz.$5

Bob,

Thank you very much for the recent set of data on the three sizes of MM dough balls. It looks like you can't rely on what the workers tell you and you have to do the weighing yourself. I suspect that workers just round off the numbers, not even suspecting that there may be a reason for someone wanting exact weights. As you will see from the new set of thickness factors listed below, there does not seem to be any rhyme or reason for their different values. Maybe there is an explanation somewhere, it just isn't obvious from inspection. Here are the thickness factors:

Small (10"): 11.20 ounces, 0.14260
Medium (14"): 19 ounces, 0.12343
Large (16"): 26.95 ounces, 0.13404

The average of the above values is 0.13336. That average is very close to what one would use to make a Papa John's pizza. For purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool to make sizes other than those noted above, I think that the average thickness factor would be the one I would use. Otherwise, for the three specific sizes (10", 14" and 16"), I would use the corresponding dough ball weight numbers in the dough calculating tool, just as I have done with all of my small MM clone doughs.

Thanks again. Now, to evaluate Norma's gluten test results and how they might impact the next iteration of an MM dough clone formulation.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

The MM dough was tested first.  It weighed 41.83 after the test.  The MM clone  made with KASL weighed 43.65 after the test.  You are right that the gluten masses did lose weight after the initial testing and weighings.  I let the dough balls out for an hour and just played around with them different times.  The MM gluten mass seemed much stronger, in that it almost windowpane when stretching it.  The MM clone dough did window pane some, but nothing like the MM dough.  I sure don’t know what that means.  The gluten masses were weighed on my new small scale.

Norma,

Thank you for running the test. I hope that you aren't trying to tease me by weighing doggy doo on your scale and telling me it was the results of your gluten test. So, for now, I will assume that what you showed is gluten masses.

It looks like both gluten masses were handled in the same way and were in a similar condition when you were done. One of the best ways to achieve that is noting when the water runs clear and there is no longer any white water. Doing the weighings shortly after drying the gluten masses perhaps provides the most meaningful weights, and that we might safely presume that from the fact that the instructions that we followed said to let the gluten dry on paper towels for a brief period before weighing. Like you, I noticed that more water evaporated from my KABF/VWG gluten mass overnight at room temperature. It was also very stretchy. It is hard to say why the MM gluten mass had better windowpaning. Maybe the flour that MM uses has a better quality gluten or perhaps the machines that knead the MM dough in the commissary do a better job of developing the gluten. Maybe they use a longer knead time to more fully develop the dough and gluten matrix. As you know, the final MM dough is a fairly stiff and dense dough.

Assuming that everything was done pretty much identically, which really isn't that hard to do in my opinion, I would interpret the results as saying that the high-gluten flour used by MM might have a lower protein content than the KASL flour that you used. Sometime, I might do a simple gluten test with my KABF using just flour and water to see if the numbers are different than what I got from my KABF MM clone dough. You could do a similar gluten test with your KASL flour. I would follow the instructions given at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7865/topicseen.html#msg7865, as referenced earlier in this thread.

One of the problems I was having with the 11-ounce dough ball numbers was matching up the carbohydrate numbers to the MM Nutrition Facts. If MM is using a lower protein flour than the KASL, that should help the carbohydrate numbers since weaker flours have more carbohydrate (starch, sugars and fiber) than stronger flours. Nutrition Facts being what they are, it is unlikely that I will be able to pinpoint the exact type of flour that MM is using. All I know at this point is that the MM gluten number is 95.83% of the KASL gluten number. That percent of the KASL protein content (14.2%) is 13.6%. That is a very common number for a high-gluten flour and might be a good starting point to look for unbleached, unbromated flours with that protein content.

I think it would be interesting to conduct the second gluten test as described in Reply 23 referenced above but using a smaller dough ball weight and a shorter bake time. The objective would be to see if an MM dough ball bakes up higher or lower than a KASL MM clone dough of the same size and weight. Of course, the nature of the gluten formation could also affect the way the dough balls bake up volumetrically.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for running the test. I hope that you aren't trying to tease me by weighing doggy doo on your scale and telling me it was the results of your gluten test. So, for now, I will assume that what you showed is gluten masses.

It looks like both gluten masses were handled in the same way and were in a similar condition when you were done. One of the best ways to achieve that is noting when the water runs clear and there is no longer any white water. Doing the weighings shortly after drying the gluten masses perhaps provides the most meaningful weights, and that we might safely presume that from the fact that the instructions that we followed said to let the gluten dry on paper towels for a brief period before weighing. Like you, I noticed that more water evaporated from my KABF/VWG gluten mass overnight at room temperature. It was also very stretchy. It is hard to say why the MM gluten mass had better windowpaning. Maybe the flour that MM uses has a better quality gluten or perhaps the machines that knead the MM dough in the commissary do a better job of developing the gluten. Maybe they use a longer knead time to more fully develop the dough and gluten matrix. As you know, the final MM dough is a fairly stiff and dense dough.

From the numbers you got, I would say that they appear to be in line with the values for high-gluten flour. Both of your values were higher than for my KABF dough, so at least the numbers are in the right direction. Assuming that everything was done pretty much identically, which really isn't that hard to do in my opinion, I would interpret the results as saying that the high-gluten flour used by MM might have a lower protein content than the KASL flour that you used. Sometime, I might do a simple gluten test with my KABF using just flour and water to see if the numbers are different than what I got from my KABF MM clone dough. You could do a similar gluten test with your KASL flour. I would follow the instructions given at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7865/topicseen.html#msg7865, as referenced earlier in this thread.

One of the problems I was having with the 11-ounce dough ball numbers was matching up the carbohydrate numbers to the MM Nutrition Facts. If MM is using a lower protein flour than the KASL, that should help the carbohydrate numbers since weaker flours have more carbohydrate (starch, sugars and fiber) than stronger flours. Nutrition Facts being what they are, it is unlikely that I will be able to pinpoint the exact type of flour that MM is using. All I know at this point is that the MM gluten number is 95.83% of the KASL gluten number. That percent of the KASL protein content (14.2%) is 13.6%. That is a very common number for a high-gluten flour and might be a good starting point to look for unbleached, unbromated flours with that protein content.

I think it would be interesting to conduct the second gluten test as described in Reply 23 referenced above but using a smaller dough ball weight and a shorter bake time. The objective would be to see if an MM dough ball bakes up higher or lower than a KASL MM clone dough of the same size and weight. Of course, the nature of the gluten formation could also affect the way the dough balls bake up volumetrically.

Peter

Peter,

Although I do have a doggie, (for a friend at home) I wasn’t teasing you with his doogy doo for the gluten tests.   I used the real doughs.  They almost look like brains to me.

I did handle both doughs the same and even timed the cold water running to be sure there weren’t any mistakes made.  I did note when the water ran clear and there wasn’t any more white water.

MM might be using a longer mix time for their dough.  I do know that the final MM dough is a fairly stiff and dense dough. What I find interesting is the MM dough ball that I am doing the tests on does feel very different than the MM clone dough I brought home from market, or saw at MM in DC.  I guess the time it spent in transit had something to do with that.  The dough ball seems to be getting more flat by each day that passes.  Maybe it is breaking down and releasing water from its bonds.  

Interesting that you think that MM is using a little lower protein high-gluten flour from the test results.  I do still have some of the Power flour if you want me to run any tests on that and also many other brands of flours.

I will do the test later this afternoon with KASL for a gluten test.  

I don’t know if it would be of any help, but I do have a small preferment Lehmann dough ball frozen that I could also perform tests on for gluten, if you think there would be any value in doing any test or tests (for gluten mass or baking tests).

I also don’t know if you saw this pdf. http://www.nebraskawheat.com/pdfs/Wheat%20and%20Flour%20Testing%20Methods%20Book.pdf  or not, but it says on the document on page 27 to use salt (2%) for a wet gluten test to wash all the starch and the other solubles from a sample, but this wet gluten test is different than what we tried.

I will also conduct the second gluten test as described at Reply 23.  Should I conduct that test in my home oven, or my toaster oven, and should I use a pizza stone if the bake should be done in my home oven?  You do want me to use Bob’s MM dough ball and my MM clone dough ball for the bake test, don’t you?

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Peter,

Any and all dough weights that I have posted came directly from my scale. If a person went by what my MM shop tells people, they'd be lost! " our small weighs a half pound,medium is one pound,and the large weighs a pound and a half ".....now thats rounding things off,eh Peter!    Thought you might get a chuckle out of that...

Bob

[grayman]

From Peter's last reply refer Mellow Mushroom,I search it and come to here,WOW,what a great research over here.
I hope I could catch and join it,clone MM dough,frozen ball,tasty pie...sound pretty good!

Gray

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have read about the saline method for gluten tests (including the article you referenced) but I decided that for our purposes just running water might be enough. I also suspected that the two tests would have some differences because the two balls were not at the same stage. I also suspected that the MM dough might feel different after its long journey to your place. You could try refreezing some of the remaining part of the MM dough and let it defrost in parallel with one of your frozen MM clone doughs and then do a "feel" test.

A simple side gluten test using only your KASL should be sufficient. I'd like to see if the results are different than a dough using all of the other ingredients. That test should also give us a better idea as to the normal color of gluten.

As far as a bake gluten test is concerned, I would use your home oven and just place the dough balls on a tray or pan as instructed in Reply 23. The trick is to get both dough balls to expand quickly and see which one expands the most. I am not sure that this test is as good as the other one but since you have the MM dough you may not have another chance soon.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

I don't mean to 'noid you out dude, but I think the man is onto you.

Ev

Who is "the man", and what is he "onto"?  Thanks.

Bob

[Pete-zza]

Interesting that you think that MM is using a little lower protein high-gluten flour from the test results.  I do still have some of the Power flour if you want me to run any tests on that and also many other brands of flours.

Norma,

I changed my mind on the Power flour. At the time you posted, I had forgotten that it has a protein content of 13.5%. Also, that flour comes in an unbleached form and is unbromated. It would be interesting to see if that flour has the same gluten content as the MM dough. Do you have any other unbleached, unbromated flours on hand with a protein content of around 13.5%?  There is no hurry on doing a Power flour gluten test.

I checked the General Mills flours and the only unbleached, unbromated flour that I could find with a protein content of around 13.5% (it actually 13.5%) is the Remarkable flour, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/REMARKABLE%20ENR%20MT.pdf.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I have read about the saline method for gluten tests (including the article you referenced) but I decided that for our purposes just running water might be enough. I also suspected that the two tests would have some differences because the two balls were not at the same stage. I also suspected that the MM dough might feel different after its long journey to your place. You could try refreezing some of the remaining part of the MM dough and let it defrost in parallel with one of your frozen MM clone doughs and then do a "feel" test.

A simple side gluten test using only your KASL should be sufficient. I'd like to see if the results are different than a dough using all of the other ingredients. That test should also give us a better idea as to the normal color of gluten.

As far as a bake gluten test is concerned, I would use your home oven and just place the dough balls on a tray or pan as instructed in Reply 23. The trick is to get both dough balls to expand quickly and see which one expands the most. I am not sure that this test is as good as the other one but since you have the MM dough you may not have another chance soon.

Peter

Norma,

I changed my mind on the Power flour. At the time you posted, I had forgotten that it has a protein content of 13.5%. Also, that flour comes in an unbleached form and is unbromated. It would be interesting to see if that flour has the same gluten content as the MM dough. Do you have any other unbleached, unbromated flours on hand with a protein content of around 13.5%?  There is no hurry on doing a Power flour gluten test.

I checked the General Mills flours and the only unbleached, unbromated flour that I could find with a protein content of around 13,5% (it actually 13.5%) is the Remarkable flour, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/REMARKABLE%20ENR%20MT.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t see you post until recently, because I became side-tracked this afternoon with other things, but will do the bake test this evening, and also the simple side gluten test using KASL.  I can understand that using KASL would give a better idea of a regular color of gluten in a dough and also wouldn‘t have any of the other ingredients that a regular MM clone dough ball has. 

I had wondered also if I should reball the leftover piece of the MM dough ball that is now in the refrigerator.  I would think a reball, with a rest before freezing. would help to distribute any leftover yeast in the dough, but I am not sure of that.  What are your ideas on doing a reball with a rest, or should I just refreeze the part of the dough ball that is leftover from when Bob sent it to me? 

Thanks for instructing me to use the home oven with a pan or tray for the bake test. 

I probably will do the Power flour gluten test over the weekend.

I don’t think I have any other unbleached and unbromated other flours at home with a protein of around 13.5%.  I think the only other flour that I have on hand is the GM Full Strength flour, but I think that has a protein of about 12.6 % and is bleached and bromated.
http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf

The only other flour I have on hand is the Better for Bread flour, but I don’t remember what protein that flour has.  I don’t have the GM Remarkable on hand.

Norma